2024-25 Roster Thread #1: The Beginninging

[Hollywood Cannon]

@Hollywood Cannon Please come stare at this absurdity. Just look at it. Let me know what you think of this, thanks.

That lines up exactly with what I remember being stated for the last several years. Absolutely. Nothing different at all.

I may be light headed from the gas leak.

 

[VladDrag]

Or the guy hiring him was delusional and thought he had a team with enough talent to compete year in and year out.

People keep saying that, but he's not Gallant (couldn't last 3 years with 3 different teams!).

CBJ, lasted 6 years and it was the GM who screwed up that team with horrid moves. 5 years with the Rangers, 7 with TB. Van was one and done, sometimes crap happen.

No one has demanded a trade, I think b/c there's a sense that Torts is an asshole to everyone, so no one feels he plays "favorites" like AV. Players roll their eyes, but also understand that it's usually their fault. Even benching Couts had its purpose, tells the team everyone is accountable.

I'm sure he'll bench Michkov once or twice - Michkov was benched in the KHL, he's used to this kind of coaching. At least here he doesn't have to worry if the HC is a buddy of Putin.

His stops in NY, TB and CBJ were successful - they made the playoffs. People will put up with a-holes if they are winning. And it will be the same here -- if the team comes out winning, this is moot.

But I feel there is a very real scenario where the flyers come out flat, and he pulls his a-hole card out and looses the team. You can't keep pulling the A-hole card without success. People begin to tune you out.

 

[dragonoffrost]

Or the guy hiring him was delusional and thought he had a team with enough talent to compete year in and year out.

People keep saying that, but he's not Gallant (couldn't last 3 years with 3 different teams!).

CBJ, lasted 6 years and it was the GM who screwed up that team with horrid moves. 5 years with the Rangers, 7 with TB. Van was one and done, sometimes crap happen.

No one has demanded a trade, I think b/c there's a sense that Torts is an asshole to everyone, so no one feels he plays "favorites" like AV. Players roll their eyes, but also understand that it's usually their fault. Even benching Couts had its purpose, tells the team everyone is accountable.

I'm sure he'll bench Michkov once or twice - Michkov was benched in the KHL, he's used to this kind of coaching. At least here he doesn't have to worry if the HC is a buddy of Putin.

There were reports Farabee did request one but it got rescinded after Higher up stepped in

 

[VladDrag]

There were reports Farabee did request one but it got rescinded after Higher up stepped in

And didn't Provy request one as well, or is that just rumor?

 

[dragonoffrost]

And didn't Provy request one as well, or is that just rumor?

I was thinking of just last year. Yeah Provy did and got shipped out but that will get washed out by saying Pride Night drove it.

 

[deadhead]

So, let's say that LHV prospects should be 25 and under (The AHL cutoff line for veteran status).

To fit into that category, you needed to be drafted 7 years ago (18 years old + 7).

That means the last two draft classes for Hextall were 2017 and 2018 with players still eligible to be an AHL prospect. There were some definite whiffs in that 2017 class for Hextall (rading up for Ratcliffe and passing Robertson). It was probably his worst draft. But even if he had the ability to make all the right calls in retrospect (Makar over Patrick, Robertson over Ratcliffe), none of that would fix our current AHL lack of talent. Hell, he still managed to hit on the Cates picks in the 5th and Lycksell is one of their better options as a 6th.

We can label 2017 a bad draft for Hextall, but that is impacting the Flyers currently as those players should be NHLers right now.

2018 has the Jay O'Brien miss. Then we have Ginning currently on the Phantoms and Ersson in the NHL. Even with hindsight, I'm not seeing huge misses there that would impact the Phantoms. Could have gone Durzi over Ginning or Kurashev over St. Ivany, but both would be in the NHL.

Hextall in 2024 isn't killing the Phantoms.

No, he killed the depth that would push players down.
And Fletcher trading away a 2nd (2019), 3rd & 4th (2020), 1st (2021), 2nd & 4th (2022), 3rd (2023), 2nd (2024).
Though at the end he did add a (2) 3rds, 4th & 6th (2023), 1st & 5th (2024).
From 2017-2022 bad picks under Hextall and trading picks by CF decimated the talent pipeline.

Thing is they've drafted pretty well under Flahr:
2019: York #14, Brink #34, Attard #72
2020: Foerster #23, Andrae #54, Desnoyers #135
2021: Tuomaala #46, Kolosov #78
2022: Gauthier #5, Bump #133, McDonald #165, Gendron #220
2023: MIchkov #7, Bonk #22, Bjarnason #51, Zavragin #87, Barkey #95, Knuble #103, Ciernik #120, Sotheran #153
Wisdom #94 (2020), Kaplan #69 (2022), biggest whiffs in the top 100 so far.
Not all these players will make the NHL, but most should have solid AHL careers.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sounds like Fletcher made way more than the "maybe one" mistake I heard about for years.

Fascinating how all that bleeding of picks that we were alarmed about, and which were assured didn't matter, now matters a lot.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

No, he killed the depth that would push players down.
And Fletcher trading away a 2nd (2019), 3rd & 4th (2020), 1st (2021), 2nd & 4th (2022), 3rd (2023), 2nd (2024).
Though at the end he did add a (2) 3rds, 4th & 6th (2023), 1st & 5th (2024).
From 2017-2022 bad picks under Hextall and trading picks by CF decimated the talent pipeline.

Thing is they've drafted pretty well under Flahr:
2019: York #14, Brink #34, Attard #72
2020: Foerster #23, Andrae #54, Desnoyers #135
2021: Tuomaala #46, Kolosov #78
2022: Gauthier #5, Bump #133, McDonald #165, Gendron #220
2023: MIchkov #7, Bonk #22, Bjarnason #51, Zavragin #87, Barkey #95, Knuble #103, Ciernik #120, Sotheran #153
Wisdom #94 (2020), Kaplan #69 (2022), biggest whiffs in the top 100 so far.
Not all these players will make the NHL, but most should have solid AHL careers.

‘The difference between these two lists is the time to flame out,” he said to no one in particular for the 48th time.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Sounds like Fletcher made way more than the "maybe one" mistake I heard about for years.

Fascinating how all that bleeding of picks that we were alarmed about, and which were assured didn't matter, now matters a lot.

pffhhhttt..

wins in the margins are for Nerds..

hockey is won along the end boards by grinders...

 

[deadhead]

I think with prospects, 24 is the cutoff age, that is, they're physically mature, they have 6 years of experience since being drafted, not much upside left.

Conversely, I think you'll find most players who have big seasons at 20-21 rarely improve much over that performance, partially b/c they get more attention from opposing teams, partially b/c it's often an outlier that they struggle to reach again.

Most prospects tend to have a two to three tier career, they flounder a little then win a starting job, after a couple years take a step up and by 25 maybe take another step up.

How long they can maintain peak production depends on health, work ethic and IQ (adjusting to the gradual erosion of physical skills). Giroux an outlier in one direction, Voracek in the other.

 

[deadhead]

His stops in NY, TB and CBJ were successful - they made the playoffs. People will put up with a-holes if they are winning. And it will be the same here -- if the team comes out winning, this is moot.

But I feel there is a very real scenario where the flyers come out flat, and he pulls his a-hole card out and looses the team. You can't keep pulling the A-hole card without success. People begin to tune you out.

Conversely, his style of coaching, focused on "aggressive" fundamental hockey (is it that different from Carolina?) tends to win.

The Flyers with all the holes in their starting 18 last season managed to finish 8th in xGF%, 9th in HDCF%.
Yes, the PP needs to be much better, they were 31st in Sh%, so learning how to finish (and finding better shooters) is important, and of course, when you're 32nd in Sv%, you need a goalie upgrade.

They do have players with offensive skills, 5x5 pp/60:
Tippett 40th, TK 43th, Farabee 50th. Add Michkov who should be top 50 even as a rookie.

Frost 127th, Brink 171st, Couts 179th, Cates 207th, Laughton 210th, Foerster 225th, Poehling #226, Hathaway #254 need to improve as a group.

Sanheim 23rd, York 124th, Zamula 139, Seeler 156.

Adding a center and D-man who can both score in the top 50 is a priority the next couple years.

Sounds like Fletcher made way more than the "maybe one" mistake I heard about for years.

Fascinating how all that bleeding of picks that we were alarmed about, and which were assured didn't matter, now matters a lot.

It didn't matter b/c Holmgren, and then Scott, set the mandate to win now.
To change that required changing the FO, not just the GM.

The problem with Fletcher wasn't that he overpaid, but that he consistently obtained the wrong player.
But Duchene instead of Hayes doesn't really move the needle, same with keeping Ghost over TDA.
The talent just wasn't there to compete, but Fletcher didn't make team strategy.

 

[VladDrag]

Conversely, his style of coaching, focused on "aggressive" fundamental hockey (is it that different from Carolina?) tends to win.

With one game they had to win -- and had to score a goal, Ryan Poehling played more minutes than any other center, Garnet Hathaway played 17 minutes. When the chips are on the table, he reverts to what he feels is safe -- there's nothing aggressive about that.

Please point to any game in the playoffs where Staal played more than Aho... Honestly I didn't check, there might be a game, but I doubt it.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Jack Eichel was available from the same team at the same time as Rasmus Ristolainen and we still have to hear this shit about how Matt Duchene wouldn’t have changed anything.

What would have changed something is not hiring a hollow name coach that threw out an entire approach to the game that was working at the first sign of resistance in favor of playing scared and hard matching Nate Thompson to Matt Barzal by design.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It didn't matter b/c Holmgren, and then Scott, set the mandate to win now.
To change that required changing the FO, not just the GM.

Let's pretend this is true.

He sure did a shitty f***ing job, didn't he? How does this even begin to function as a defense?

Also, why are you defending him? You said you don't, yet here you are.

The problem with Fletcher wasn't that he overpaid, but that he consistently obtained the wrong player.
But Duchene instead of Hayes doesn't really move the needle, same with keeping Ghost over TDA.
The talent just wasn't there to compete, but Fletcher didn't make team strategy.

The problem with Fletcher was that he consistently overpaid and consistently overpaid for wrong players.

Also, your hypothesis that having several clearly better players over several clearly worse players won't make a difference is wrong. I do not need to cite my sources. That's basic fact. Arguing otherwise makes me wonder if you're typing during a seizure.

Good players are good. Having good players is good. Bad players are bad. Having bad players is bad. You disagree or agree?


As an aside, pretending Carolina and Philly run comparable offenses is absolutely wild. One team heavily encourages playmaking and runs a small arsenal of planned plays on the rush and off faceoffs. The other isn't allowed to pass across the ice. The only thing they chiefly have in common is the puck.

 

[deadhead]

With one game they had to win -- and had to score a goal, Ryan Poehling played more minutes than any other center, Garnet Hathaway played 17 minutes. When the chips are on the table, he reverts to what he feels is safe -- there's nothing aggressive about that.

Please point to any game in the playoffs where Staal played more than Aho... Honestly I didn't check, there might be a game, but I doubt it.

Let's pretend this is true.

He sure did a shitty f***ing job, didn't he? How does this even begin to function as a defense?

Also, why are you defending him? You said you don't, yet here you are.



The problem with Fletcher was that he consistently overpaid and consistently overpaid for wrong players.

Also, your hypothesis that having several clearly better players over several clearly worse players won't make a difference is wrong. I do not need to cite my sources. That's basic fact. Arguing otherwise makes me wonder if you're typing during a seizure.

Good players are good. Having good players is good. Bad players are bad. Having bad players is bad. You disagree or agree?


As an aside, pretending Carolina and Philly run comparable offenses is absolutely wild. One team heavily encourages playmaking and runs a small arsenal of planned plays on the rush and off faceoffs. The other isn't allowed to pass across the ice. The only thing they chiefly have in common is the puck.

Poehling and Hathaway put up ridiculous possession numbers, when you have no confidence in your goalies, what's the best strategy? They didn't have the firepower to outscore teams (heck, Edmonton didn't start winning until they tightened up on defense and they do have the firepower), so maybe the logic is "keep the puck away" and hope you get a lead and can hold it.

Better players who are marginally better don't move the needle, I mean who cares if you miss the playoffs by 10 points or 15 points? "Either go way or go all the way in . . . "

Torts was tolerant of TK's risk taking, he'll be tolerant of Michkov.
But when a mediocre offensive player like Allison takes bad risks like ill advised cross ice passes, the whip comes down.

Simple Cost-Benefit analysis, when top offensive players gamble more good than bad things happen, when mediocre offensive players gamble, uh oh.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Poehling and Hathaway put up ridiculous possession numbers, when you have no confidence in your goalies, what's the best strategy? They didn't have the firepower to outscore teams (heck, Edmonton didn't start winning until they tightened up on defense and they do have the firepower), so maybe the logic is "keep the puck away" and hope you get a lead and can hold it.

Better players who are marginally better don't move the needle, I mean who cares if you miss the playoffs by 10 points or 15 points? "Either go way or go all the way in . . . "

Torts was tolerant of TK's risk taking, he'll be tolerant of Michkov.
But when a mediocre offensive player like Allison takes bad risks like ill advised cross ice passes, the whip comes down.

Simple Cost-Benefit analysis, when top offensive players gamble more good than bad things happen, when mediocre offensive players gamble, uh oh.

Is it good to have more better players than worse players? Or is it bad?

Wouldn't their contribution go further if they had more better players around them?

 

[freakydallas13]

"No one could have done better in Chuck's position!" sure is position you can take to try and absolve him of blame. He had no choice but to make awful deals! Holmgren had a gun to Fletcher's head forcing him to trade way too much for Ristolianen!

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Or the guy hiring him was delusional and thought he had a team with enough talent to compete year in and year out.

People keep saying that, but he's not Gallant (couldn't last 3 years with 3 different teams!).

CBJ, lasted 6 years and it was the GM who screwed up that team with horrid moves. 5 years with the Rangers, 7 with TB. Van was one and done, sometimes crap happen.

No one has demanded a trade, I think b/c there's a sense that Torts is an asshole to everyone, so no one feels he plays "favorites" like AV. Players roll their eyes, but also understand that it's usually their fault. Even benching Couts had its purpose, tells the team everyone is accountable.

I'm sure he'll bench Michkov once or twice - Michkov was benched in the KHL, he's used to this kind of coaching. At least here he doesn't have to worry if the HC is a buddy of Putin.

Torts is a used car salesman fraud.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

No, he killed the depth that would push players down.
And Fletcher trading away a 2nd (2019), 3rd & 4th (2020), 1st (2021), 2nd & 4th (2022), 3rd (2023), 2nd (2024).
Though at the end he did add a (2) 3rds, 4th & 6th (2023), 1st & 5th (2024).
From 2017-2022 bad picks under Hextall and trading picks by CF decimated the talent pipeline.

Thing is they've drafted pretty well under Flahr:
2019: York #14, Brink #34, Attard #72
2020: Foerster #23, Andrae #54, Desnoyers #135
2021: Tuomaala #46, Kolosov #78
2022: Gauthier #5, Bump #133, McDonald #165, Gendron #220
2023: MIchkov #7, Bonk #22, Bjarnason #51, Zavragin #87, Barkey #95, Knuble #103, Ciernik #120, Sotheran #153
Wisdom #94 (2020), Kaplan #69 (2022), biggest whiffs in the top 100 so far.
Not all these players will make the NHL, but most should have solid AHL careers.

So 2 fulltime NHL players is drafting pretty well? You can say 3 with MM. To say they drafted pretty well is just not factual. Though 2 of those classes way to early to tell.

 

[freakydallas13]

Are we not counting Gauthier as someone who demanded a trade?

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Conversely, his style of coaching, focused on "aggressive" fundamental hockey (is it that different from Carolina?) tends to win.

The Flyers with all the holes in their starting 18 last season managed to finish 8th in xGF%, 9th in HDCF%.
Yes, the PP needs to be much better, they were 31st in Sh%, so learning how to finish (and finding better shooters) is important, and of course, when you're 32nd in Sv%, you need a goalie upgrade.

They do have players with offensive skills, 5x5 pp/60:
Tippett 40th, TK 43th, Farabee 50th. Add Michkov who should be top 50 even as a rookie.

Frost 127th, Brink 171st, Couts 179th, Cates 207th, Laughton 210th, Foerster 225th, Poehling #226, Hathaway #254 need to improve as a group.

Sanheim 23rd, York 124th, Zamula 139, Seeler 156.

Adding a center and D-man who can both score in the top 50 is a priority the next couple years.


It didn't matter b/c Holmgren, and then Scott, set the mandate to win now.
To change that required changing the FO, not just the GM.

The problem with Fletcher wasn't that he overpaid, but that he consistently obtained the wrong player.
But Duchene instead of Hayes doesn't really move the needle, same with keeping Ghost over TDA.
The talent just wasn't there to compete, but Fletcher didn't make team strategy.

Stop with the fn excuses. A good GM would have set a diff course and laid out a differetn vision to his bosses. Or said fire me. He was a flat out bad GM. End of story.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Stop with the fn excuses. A good GM would have set a diff course and laid out a differetn vision to his bosses. Or said fire me. He was a flat out bad GM. End of story.

Are you sure he wasn't fine because he was told to win?


Someone remind me, did the team win?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Oh Holmgren is to blame for everything. Well at least that's behind us then.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Is it good to have more better players than worse players? Or is it bad?

Wouldn't their contribution go further if they had more better players around them?

in the words of Haxstol..

" sure would could have tried to skill our way out of the situation! but in the end we decided to just survive for the next shift"..


#neverchange Flyers...

 

[renberg]

It's been twenty-one seasons since Tortorella won the SC with TB. He's coached seventeen seasons since then. He's missed the PO on seven of those seasons; been bounced out of the POs in seven more after round one. Only twice has his team made it to the second round and once to the third. Actually that's not exactly a glowing resume of success.
There are very few players who speak highly of him as a person after either being a part of or having witnessed the way that he mistreated them. His team in TB had reunion last year and chose not to include him. His year in Vancouver ended quickly with a lot of anger towards him in the locker room. The time with NYR was not a happy camp ground. In CBJ the GM refused to fire him and at the same time refused to extend him since he'd made a mess with the way that he used the roster. We've seen his mind games played on various players during his time here.
If you think that this guy is up to dealing with today's hockey both on and off the ice, you are simply wrong. He has become a loser of his own making.