Blue Jays Discussion: 2024-25 Off-season: The free agent watch begins (and sometimes old baseball radio broadcasts)

[LeafsNet]

They should have been fired after that choke against Seattle. Jesus Christ it was like watching game 7 in 2013 except stretched out over 9 innings.

 

[mikeyz]

They have already screwed it up. They likely could have gotten him signed for 250 - 300M 2-3 years ago. Now it’s going to cost them 400-500M. Or they lose him for nothing.

They have already cost the team hundreds of millions.

And it’s kinda hard to tell by far your best player that you don’t have the money or don’t think he is worth it after making 700M+ offers to FAs in back to back off seasons.
They needed to lock him up before going big game hunting. Especially considering that they missed.

This is bang on the money. Very well said.

Atkins and Shapiro have left the fanbase devoid of any real hope. They are not leaders, they are chasers with an overflowing excuse bucket.

Ohhhhh boy. You know they f***ed up when even you start letting go of their coattails and apron strings. Lol.

Atkins and Shapiro have left the fanbase devoid of any real hope. They are not leaders, they are chasers with an overflowing excuse bucket.

Ohhhhh boy. You know they f***ed up when even you start letting go of their coattails and apron strings. Lol.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Ohhhhh boy. You know they f***ed up when even you start letting go of their coattails and apron strings. Lol.


Ohhhhh boy. You know they f***ed up when even you start letting go of their coattails and apron strings. Lol.

We heard you the first time!

 

[mikeyz]

We heard you the first time!

Hahaha yeah, I don’t know why that sent twice.

 

[shortfuze]

They have already screwed it up. They likely could have gotten him signed for 250 - 300M 2-3 years ago. Now it’s going to cost them 400-500M. Or they lose him for nothing.

They have already cost the team hundreds of millions.

And it’s kinda hard to tell by far your best player that you don’t have the money or don’t think he is worth it after making 700M+ offers to FAs in back to back off seasons.
They needed to lock him up before going big game hunting. Especially considering that they missed.

Hindsight is 20/20 eh?

 

[cyris]

Hindsight is 20/20 eh?

You don’t need hindsight to know if you are offering FA over 700m your best player who is due a contract is going to expect to get paid too

 

[Bjindaho]

Hindsight is 20/20 eh?

There was never a point at which they shouldn't have been talking deal with Bo. It makes sense today and has at all points. The only reason that anyone is talking about dealing Bo is because we don't believe he will sign.

The issue with Vladdy is very clear and very stupid. Offering 7 years in 2021 would only have covered 2 FA years, would have paid him roughly fair value for that whole time, and is still an insult to Vlad because of the number of years (while also being a really bad offer from the team's point of value for the same reason). Lining up offers for Ohtani and Soto without talking deal with their own stars is a slap to their faces.

 

[Dr.Funk]

 

[Dr.Funk]

 

[shortfuze]

You don’t need hindsight to know if you are offering FA over 700m your best player who is due a contract is going to expect to get paid too

Of course he's going to get paid but to say it's easy to give someone a fat contract when their career is up and down is a little more difficult than you are giving management credit for.

 

[cyris]

Of course he's going to get paid but to say it's easy to give someone a fat contract when their career is up and down is a little more difficult than you are giving management credit for.

Yeah it would have been a bit of a risk to sign him earlier. That’s why it would have been hundreds of millions cheaper.
I’m sorry if I expect the management team that is paid millions of dollars a year to do a hard job but you know that’s what the money is for.

But instead they lowballed him then waited while flashing nearly 3/4 of a billion at multiple FAs and it’s going to cost them a couple hundred million more than it would have. And it will hurt the team overall because that is less money to spend elsewhere.

 

[Dr.Funk]

 

[shaner8989]

More guys off the board

Jays to busy signing rule 5 bums.

Such a garbage organization

Another last place finish is a guarantee

 

[TheTotalPackage]

Atkins and Shapiro have left the fanbase devoid of any real hope. They are not leaders, they are chasers with an overflowing excuse bucket.

The most disappointing thing for me, amongst all the disappointment those two have provided, is that we were told when they came in that they were going to do a slow build, the right now, infusing talent in the farm system, as to build a consistent contender year over year. The Cleveland model, but afforded the ability to supplement it all with much more financial resources.

We're going on a decade now of them at the helm, and the team is closer to a team in need of a rebuild than one of a sustainable contender, the farm system is pretty barren, it looks more and more like we are destined to lose our franchise player, and not a single playoff game has been won in the Vladdy/Bo era.

 

[canucksfan]

The most disappointing thing for me, amongst all the disappointment those two have provided, is that we were told when they came in that they were going to do a slow build, the right now, infusing talent in the farm system, as to build a consistent contender year over year. The Cleveland model, but afforded the ability to supplement it all with much more financial resources.

We're going on a decade now of them at the helm, and the team is closer to a team in need of a rebuild than one of a sustainable contender, the farm system is pretty barren, it looks more and more like we are destined to lose our franchise player, and not a single playoff game has been won in the Vladdy/Bo era.

The turnaround from a shitty team to a playoff team was quite quick and they did an excellent job at it. Part of the problem it was almost too quick so they didn't have the next wave of talent. The time they did have a high pick, it was the COVID year and players stopped playing. Hard to evaluate talent when they aren't playing. It's also their fault because the drafting, especially pitchers was bad.

It isn't easy to get young talent while competing. Young talent is often involved in deadline trades and the draft picks aren't as good. Furthermore, recognizing if the team's drafting sucks can take a while. It takes most players 3-4 years to potentially reach the majors or at least realize the pick was a bust.

I think they did a good job up until the Mariners series and since then it's been below average. A few consistent problems linger throughout all of those years though, hanging on to personnel for too long and a lack of a good farm system.

 

[Dough72]

Guerrero Jr should not be making private conversations public. If he doesn't like the offers just politely decline. Trashing the organization publicly seems petty and vindictive.

 

[Ale Brew]

The most disappointing thing for me, amongst all the disappointment those two have provided, is that we were told when they came in that they were going to do a slow build, the right now, infusing talent in the farm system, as to build a consistent contender year over year. The Cleveland model, but afforded the ability to supplement it all with much more financial resources.

We're going on a decade now of them at the helm, and the team is closer to a team in need of a rebuild than one of a sustainable contender, the farm system is pretty barren, it looks more and more like we are destined to lose our franchise player, and not a single playoff game has been won in the Vladdy/Bo era.

I think this is a completely fair and rational critique of Shatkins.

All of the “should have locked him up last year or… is complete revisionist history”. As a fan base of course we have wanted him locked up all along, however it’s been a bit of a rollercoaster of a ride. His 22 and 23 seasons weren’t that of a guy who deserved a monster deal. I guarantee if we’d done so at that time the fan base would’ve crucified them for it.

The reality is that last offseason it was Bo who looked like the sure thing that should be signed. Anyone saying otherwise is just changing the narrative now.

Unfortunately this close to FA Vlad has all the leverage, he bet on himself and with his 24 season he’s already won. They either pony up now with a mega deal, that’s still risky given his up and down performances or they risk losing him for nothing.

It’s a really bad situation and is likely impacting our ability to bring in other FA’s, but pretending it was always obvious to give him a huge extension is a convenient way of kicking a FO that made plenty of other mistakes.

 

[shortfuze]

Yeah it would have been a bit of a risk to sign him earlier. That’s why it would have been hundreds of millions cheaper.
I’m sorry if I expect the management team that is paid millions of dollars a year to do a hard job but you know that’s what the money is for.

But instead they lowballed him then waited while flashing nearly 3/4 of a billion at multiple FAs and it’s going to cost them a couple hundred million more than it would have. And it will hurt the team overall because that is less money to spend elsewhere.

And that the hard issue. Is he going to be worth the money they might give him or is he going to go back to his old ways. The problem as fans is we don't have any insight and will always assume the player will be overpaid.

 

[cyris]

And that the hard issue. Is he going to be worth the money they might give him or is he going to go back to his old ways. The problem as fans is we don't have any insight and will always assume the player will be overpaid.

And if they had signed him when it would have cost much less then there wouldn’t be the same financial risk there is now. Or they let him walk and lose him for nothing.

They needed to make this decision 2-3 years ago. If they weren’t going to invest in him then they should have traded him while his value was still sky high.
Nothing was gained by waiting this out. Now all the options they have are significantly worse then they were then.

 

[The Iceman]

Guerrero Jr should not be making private conversations public. If he doesn't like the offers just politely decline. Trashing the organization publicly seems petty and vindictive.

And fair.
Vladdy has said all the right things for years.

He is free to speak his mind and call some attention to the rotten management job this org has been doing.

My fav quote of the off this season is Shapiro preaching continuity when asked if he was retaining Atkins.
If you don't fire him after a last place finish with a team record payroll and the worst farm system I can remember the Jays having when will he be fired?

Only way out for this org is by spending big $$$.
The team is back to being a NON destination for FA.
I haven't felt that way since the JP GM years.

 

[Bjindaho]

One of the biggest issues is the makeup of the team and obliviousness of management

Toronto currently has 4 starting calibre infielders and a viable platoon that could be starting level.

Toronto has 2 starting outfielders and could theoretically make a platoon for a starting calibre outfielder.

Toronto has no viable DH options.

Toronto has good starters but their BP (which was their biggest issue entering the offseason) has actually gotten worse and their concept that guys that don't throw hard but offer spin is strange (Danner was a potential BP option internally but they added someone who is older and worse).

 

[kb]

The Jays have arguably a bottom 3 farm system, they finished dead last in the AL East, and that last place was nearly at the luxury tax threshold.

How do you even begin to sell this nightmare of a franchise to Free Agents when the guys who botched this completely are still in charge? What is the plan?

 

[dredeye]

The most disappointing thing for me, amongst all the disappointment those two have provided, is that we were told when they came in that they were going to do a slow build, the right now, infusing talent in the farm system, as to build a consistent contender year over year. The Cleveland model, but afforded the ability to supplement it all with much more financial resources.

We're going on a decade now of them at the helm, and the team is closer to a team in need of a rebuild than one of a sustainable contender, the farm system is pretty barren, it looks more and more like we are destined to lose our franchise player, and not a single playoff game has been won in the Vladdy/Bo era.

I agree with everything you said aside from this one part. This isn’t a team closer to a need to rebuild. They are a team in need of a rebuild already. I was really excited when they came I. What an absolute failure they’ve proven to be

 

[Cloned]

Remember how disappointing it was when we only signed Justin Turner last year?

Well we might not even sign a Justin Turner this year.

 

[Bjindaho]

Remember how disappointing it was when we only signed Justin Turner last year?

Well we might not even sign a Justin Turner this year.

The same organization that said that Horwitz doesn't provide enough offense to play 1B/DH signed Turner to play 1B/DH for 13M (Turner hit 23 homers the year before and it was widely viewed that his power was regressing).