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2024-2025 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread.

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HighNote said:
It comes down to your last sentence here. Toropchenko might have worse numbers, but he makes the 4th line better than Joseph does. I imagine the Walker-Faksa-Toropchenko line is an absolute pain to play against, which is what you want out of your 4th line. You don't necessarily need them to score, just be responsible defensively and wear down the opposition. Toropchenko does this better than Joseph due to his size/range and his motor.

I'd also argue that Toropchenko is the better/more valuable player at an individual level anyways, all things considered. They're close, though.
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I don't know if Torop does make the 4th line better. Joseph has speed as well and is a solid on the fore and backcheck. He hits too. He has 9 hits per 60 vs Torop's 12. Now that is 33% more for Toro, but a lot of his hits seem meaningless to me. He doesn't separate the puck. He has a team worst among forwards .39 takeaways per 60 compared to Jospeh's team leading 1.9. We have not really tried Joseph much in that 4th line winger role as the 4th line has been fairly set. Torop does block shots at a higher rate.

Note - I do not like Torop, so I admit the possibility of bias.
 
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Majorityof1 said:
I don't know if Torop does make the 4th line better. Joseph has speed as well and is a solid on the fore and backcheck. He hits too. He has 9 hits per 60 vs Torop's 12. Now that is 33% more for Toro, but a lot of his hits seem meaningless to me. He doesn't separate the puck. He has a team worst among forwards .39 takeaways per 60 compared to Jospeh's team leading 1.9. We have not really tried Joseph much in that 4th line winger role as the 4th line has been fairly set. Torop does block shots at a higher rate.

Note - I do not like Torop, so I admit the possibility of bias.
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Your Toropchenko bias has been pretty obvious. I think its clouding your impressions here.

I don't think there is going to be a compelling statistical argument about which of the 2 guys plays on the 4th line. It will have more to do with how they want that line to function, if they think its providing the team with energy/momentum. I would say, I think Toropchenko is more likely to impact who the opposing coach puts out there in response, vs if Joseph is out there. Its not a giant deal, but I think Toropchenko can muscle his way places and threaten smaller skilled players better than Joseph does. I'm all for team speed, but I don't think we've seen Joseph use it in a way that accomplishes anything significant (yet).
 
MissouriMook said:
The 5v5 numbers disagree. All three of those guys are in the low to mid-40s in GF%, xGF%, xSC%, and xHDSC%. They may be a pain to play against based on the eye test, but we are consistently being outscored and outchanced this season when that group is on the ice. Not sure what that solution is, but finding a solution that pushes Torpo and Walker into the 13th/14th forward role would be a positive outcome.

Conversely, looking at these same metrics for Bolduc, even in a role less suited to his strengths, suggests he should be getting more ice time and a more prominent role in the offense. I think he’s ready for it.
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Being a pain to play against is one thing, being an actually good 4th line is another. I never said they were a good 4th line. I do think Toropchenko makes the line better than Joseph does, though. It's still not a great 4th line no matter who's in.

Ideally, you want your 4th line to be defensively responsible, to be a pain to play against, and have a touch of skill mixed in so they can chip in some offense from time to time. Having two of those things makes a decent 4th line. Having all 3 makes a great 4th line (like we had with Steen/Barbashev/Sundqvist). The WTF line has one of those things, and that's that they are a pain to play against. They're not bad defensively, but they aren't great either, and there's next to no skill there. So they really just have the one thing going for them. They're physical, they're all over you on the forecheck, and they can get under your skin. Overall you have what's probably close to a league average 4th line.

In the end, these guys are all likely (hopefully) gone or in the press box come contending time and we will look back on them like we do with the Marcel Goc's, Maxim Lapierre's, and Jaskin's of the world.
 
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Xerloris said:
This is purely about Fowler and MY Kyrou comment, nothing else. I consider Kyrou thinking he can do some dirty dangles at full speed in the final minute of a game with an EN to be the pinnacle of stupid ass bullshit compared to Fowler trying to pass to an incompetent team mate to be much less of a problem.
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Fowler trying to pass to an incompetent teammate? This is part of the issue. Fowler made a dumb mistake. Which again to my point isn't that serious because the good far outweighs the bad, but people want to make excuses for the guys they like and vilify the guys they don't like. Fowler tried to make a pass to Neighbours, who was flanked in the middle of the ice by defenders, when he had time and space to make another decision. The puck was in our net about 4 seconds later. It's the same thing. It's a boneheaded play based on over-confidence with the same result. He doesn't get bonus points just because you like him more.
 
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sfvega said:
Fowler trying to pass to an incompetent teammate? This is part of the issue. Fowler made a dumb mistake. Which again to my point isn't that serious because the good far outweighs the bad, but people want to make excuses for the guys they like and vilify the guys they don't like. Fowler tried to make a pass to Neighbours, who was flanked in the middle of the ice by defenders, when he had time and space to make another decision. The puck was in our net about 4 seconds later. It's the same thing. It's a boneheaded play based on over-confidence with the same result. He doesn't get bonus points just because you like him more.
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Fowler is God and should never be questioned about anything. EVER!!!
 
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Yeah it doesn't seem like some folks know how sports work. If you're playing really well and you make a mistake but overall you're playing really well people will automatically balance that mistake. It isn't nefarious or the sign of bad faith or inconsistency. It is the opposite. It's the sign of balance.

Now you can argue that some player is actually causing problems that others may not perceive as much, so do that.

Or you can argue that some player perceived is causing problems should be getting more credit, so do that.

But to argue you're so bemused by the corruption of the failure to catalog every single play, and moreover the absence of cataloguing every single play within a world of perfect equipoise proves that everyone is hopelessly biased ... that is foofish, it's true foofery. It's both technically true and instantly worthless. It's the pose toward the world that everyone is corrupt and a failure. Which is also technically true and instantly worthless.

The logical end to an argument that everything is inherently biased and all actors in the system are thus corrupt is that nothing is even worth talking about and the forum should shut down. So, don't put yourself in arguments that end there.
 
Toro is just a guy. I think Walker is a more effective forechecker then Toro. Toro has that type of skating stride where it looks like he's got a lot going on, but he doesn't really do anything with it. He doesn't lay big hits. He doesn't strip the puck. He has worse hands then Dakota Joshua did while he was here, and that's saying something. I wouldn't hate sitting him a few games and finding out if Joseph could make for a more effective line with Walker and Faksa.
 
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StlBigFly said:
Maybe surprised there isn’t more discussion (not necessarily here just in general) about M Joseph scratches. Seems to come and go.

Kinda expensive and when 3 mil aav players sit it’s usually discussed a bit.

He’s got a year of term after this.

Sure hope they’re working on something with him and plan to use him in the future. That’s a lot of cap for 1.5 years and pretty challenging if he cant crack the bottom 6. I gotta think M Joseph could be a super impactful playoff skater.
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Contract aside I haven't really seen anything from him that would lead me to believe he deserves to be in the lineup. He has been pretty meh when playing. I was led to believe he would be a good two way forward with good PK skills, I haven't really seen that tbh. He has definitely had some solid games, especially early on in the season but mostly just invisible out there.
 
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Toropchenko is just a regular season guy. In the playoffs his game as a 4th liner is more valued and valuable because it's more direct. But this will be the third straight year without playoffs unless they go streaking during the next slew of tough games, they aren't getting the best part of his game out of him and the memory of it has faded a bit
 
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SirPaste said:
Contract aside I haven't really seen anything from him that would lead me to believe he deserves to be in the lineup. He has been pretty meh when playing. I was led to believe he would be a good two way forward with good PK skills, I haven't really seen that tbh. He has definitely had some solid games, especially early on in the season but mostly just invisible out there.
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I think it feels like the first part of the season and now are a totally different dude. Maybe the injury he had earlier remains…

It’s just so odd…if you told me hey, we got a 27 y/o bottom 6 dude that is above 6 foot tall and costs 3 mil I’d be thinking that our bottom 6 was going to dominate. 3 milly is pricey af for a bottom 6 wing. And the only thing getting dominated is the pressbox coffee machine. He gets to sit and watch how Nathan walker carved out a career…and despite his youth and size he can’t displace Nathan from the lineup. I’m a huge fan of walker but, no offense meant to him, if you can’t displace him when you’re taller, faster, younger…that’s rough. I’d be working my butt off…
 
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StlBigFly said:
I think it feels like the first part of the season and now are a totally different dude. Maybe the injury he had earlier remains…

It’s just so odd…if you told me hey, we got a 27 y/o bottom 6 dude that is above 6 foot tall and costs 3 mil I’d be thinking that our bottom 6 was going to dominate. 3 milly is pricey af for a bottom 6 wing. And the only thing getting dominated is the pressbox coffee machine. He gets to sit and watch how Nathan walker carved out a career…and despite his youth and size he can’t displace Nathan from the lineup. I’m a huge fan of walker but, no offense meant to him, if you can’t displace him when you’re taller, faster, younger…that’s rough. I’d be working my butt off…
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Why are you so hung up on his salary? He's a 27 yo. 6ft dude that costs $3M that we were given a pick to take for free. If you had REALLY high expectations of a guy when the other team is paying us a 3rd to take, that's on you. He obviously was not worth his salary. They gave up a pIck for us to take him. That changes the whole story.
 
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Majorityof1 said:
Why are you so hung up on his salary? He's a 27 yo. 6ft dude that costs $3M that we were given a pick to take for free. If you had REALLY high expectations of a guy when the other team is paying us a 3rd to take, that's on you. He obviously was not worth his salary. They gave up a pIck for us to take him. That changes the whole story.
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Exactly, there is a reason Ottawa spend a third round pick just to dump his contract.
 
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