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2024-2025 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread. | Page 83 | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League
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2024-2025 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread.

HighNote said:
It comes down to your last sentence here. Toropchenko might have worse numbers, but he makes the 4th line better than Joseph does. I imagine the Walker-Faksa-Toropchenko line is an absolute pain to play against, which is what you want out of your 4th line. You don't necessarily need them to score, just be responsible defensively and wear down the opposition. Toropchenko does this better than Joseph due to his size/range and his motor.

I'd also argue that Toropchenko is the better/more valuable player at an individual level anyways, all things considered. They're close, though.
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I don't know if Torop does make the 4th line better. Joseph has speed as well and is a solid on the fore and backcheck. He hits too. He has 9 hits per 60 vs Torop's 12. Now that is 33% more for Toro, but a lot of his hits seem meaningless to me. He doesn't separate the puck. He has a team worst among forwards .39 takeaways per 60 compared to Jospeh's team leading 1.9. We have not really tried Joseph much in that 4th line winger role as the 4th line has been fairly set. Torop does block shots at a higher rate.

Note - I do not like Torop, so I admit the possibility of bias.
 
Majorityof1 said:
I don't know if Torop does make the 4th line better. Joseph has speed as well and is a solid on the fore and backcheck. He hits too. He has 9 hits per 60 vs Torop's 12. Now that is 33% more for Toro, but a lot of his hits seem meaningless to me. He doesn't separate the puck. He has a team worst among forwards .39 takeaways per 60 compared to Jospeh's team leading 1.9. We have not really tried Joseph much in that 4th line winger role as the 4th line has been fairly set. Torop does block shots at a higher rate.

Note - I do not like Torop, so I admit the possibility of bias.
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Your Toropchenko bias has been pretty obvious. I think its clouding your impressions here.

I don't think there is going to be a compelling statistical argument about which of the 2 guys plays on the 4th line. It will have more to do with how they want that line to function, if they think its providing the team with energy/momentum. I would say, I think Toropchenko is more likely to impact who the opposing coach puts out there in response, vs if Joseph is out there. Its not a giant deal, but I think Toropchenko can muscle his way places and threaten smaller skilled players better than Joseph does. I'm all for team speed, but I don't think we've seen Joseph use it in a way that accomplishes anything significant (yet).
 
I don't see Torop getting in there as a forechecking monster or anything like that, he does not appear to use his size to his advantage.
 
MissouriMook said:
The 5v5 numbers disagree. All three of those guys are in the low to mid-40s in GF%, xGF%, xSC%, and xHDSC%. They may be a pain to play against based on the eye test, but we are consistently being outscored and outchanced this season when that group is on the ice. Not sure what that solution is, but finding a solution that pushes Torpo and Walker into the 13th/14th forward role would be a positive outcome.

Conversely, looking at these same metrics for Bolduc, even in a role less suited to his strengths, suggests he should be getting more ice time and a more prominent role in the offense. I think he’s ready for it.
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Being a pain to play against is one thing, being an actually good 4th line is another. I never said they were a good 4th line. I do think Toropchenko makes the line better than Joseph does, though. It's still not a great 4th line no matter who's in.

Ideally, you want your 4th line to be defensively responsible, to be a pain to play against, and have a touch of skill mixed in so they can chip in some offense from time to time. Having two of those things makes a decent 4th line. Having all 3 makes a great 4th line (like we had with Steen/Barbashev/Sundqvist). The WTF line has one of those things, and that's that they are a pain to play against. They're not bad defensively, but they aren't great either, and there's next to no skill there. So they really just have the one thing going for them. They're physical, they're all over you on the forecheck, and they can get under your skin. Overall you have what's probably close to a league average 4th line.

In the end, these guys are all likely (hopefully) gone or in the press box come contending time and we will look back on them like we do with the Marcel Goc's, Maxim Lapierre's, and Jaskin's of the world.
 
Xerloris said:
This is purely about Fowler and MY Kyrou comment, nothing else. I consider Kyrou thinking he can do some dirty dangles at full speed in the final minute of a game with an EN to be the pinnacle of stupid ass bullshit compared to Fowler trying to pass to an incompetent team mate to be much less of a problem.
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Fowler trying to pass to an incompetent teammate? This is part of the issue. Fowler made a dumb mistake. Which again to my point isn't that serious because the good far outweighs the bad, but people want to make excuses for the guys they like and vilify the guys they don't like. Fowler tried to make a pass to Neighbours, who was flanked in the middle of the ice by defenders, when he had time and space to make another decision. The puck was in our net about 4 seconds later. It's the same thing. It's a boneheaded play based on over-confidence with the same result. He doesn't get bonus points just because you like him more.
 
sfvega said:
Fowler trying to pass to an incompetent teammate? This is part of the issue. Fowler made a dumb mistake. Which again to my point isn't that serious because the good far outweighs the bad, but people want to make excuses for the guys they like and vilify the guys they don't like. Fowler tried to make a pass to Neighbours, who was flanked in the middle of the ice by defenders, when he had time and space to make another decision. The puck was in our net about 4 seconds later. It's the same thing. It's a boneheaded play based on over-confidence with the same result. He doesn't get bonus points just because you like him more.
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Fowler is God and should never be questioned about anything. EVER!!!
 
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