2024-2025 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread.

Apr 30, 2012
21,171
5,712
St. Louis, MO
I haven't really liked the Broberg - Parayko pairing so far. Feels like they're always defending. Hopefully they'll build some chemistry and break out cleanly more often which I think will involve Parayko deferring to Broberg more often.
I don’t mind the pairing, because Parayko takes crazy defensive assignments. That said, I actually would prefer to split them up if Broberg continues to play so solidly. I long for the days when we had one of Petro or Parayko on the ice for 48 minutes a game.
 

stl76

No. 5 in your programs, No. 1 in your hearts
Jul 2, 2015
9,530
9,176
With Broberg's continued development this year, im curious on where everyone thinks/expects his ceiling to be with us in a couple more years? Would most agree he'll become a surefire 3D, and if everything goes perfect possibly even a 2D in his prime?
Hate to say it, but I don’t think Broberg has high enough hockey IQ to be a true all situations #1D. Not saying his IQ is bad, it’s well above average IMO…but it’s not ELITE enough to truly separate him from other top dmen in the league.

I think there’s a strong likelihood Broberg will develop into a top pairing dman, heck he’s already playing like one. If he can stay healthy then long term I see a good chance he becomes a top end 2D, maybe even a borderline/lower end 1D.

I have no issue with the usage of statistics, but it's how they are used that is problematic. It's perfectly fine to watch the game and then use the numbers as an adjunct to support what you're observing. That can be very useful, but that's very different than watching the game on the spreadsheet and basing your entire assessment of a player using pure numbers. Hockey is a dynamic sport with both qualitative and quantitative data at hand. If you're experienced and attuned to the right details, you'll find yourself referring to the numbers less and less over time.
Agree that often statistics are misused, but strongly disagree that stats should only be used to support the eye test. There are times when stats are best used to support eye test, but the eye test is also subject to all sorts of biases and limitations. Relying solely on the eye test is a horrible idea.

Focusing on properly analyzing stats can lead to novel and correct understand of what is actually happening on the ice but is being largely missed by an old school eye test. In other words, sometimes it’s best to use the eye test to support a statistical analysis rather than the other way around.

Statistical analysis and the eye test have to coexist, but there is nothing wrong with putting proper statistical analysis first some times.
 
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Davimir Tarablad

Registered User
Sep 16, 2015
9,529
13,368
I think he can be the #1 LD, but then you see people like below that think Broberg is doing so bad that the Blues should buy him out. 😂



I agree. I think we’re another solid defenseman and goal scorer away.
Oilers fans are still having trouble coping. Saying Broberg should be bought out might be the most braindead, 'I'm using one single advanced metric and forming an opinion' stance I've ever seen.

A complete and total absence of hockey IQ on display there.
He's got a comment about Bouchard being the 2nd or 3rd best Canadian defensive D, dude doesn't have brain cells.
 
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Bluesnatic27

Registered User
Aug 5, 2011
4,766
3,357
Something that needs to be highlighted from this post is that measurements must be measured. Measurements must be tested.

Are they valid? Meaning, do they measure what they claim to measure?

And,,,,,,

Are they reliable? Meaning, can they validly measure what they claim to be measured over time?
Yes, they have and they do.

These numbers have been easily available for well over a decade now. They’ve shown to measure what they claim to measure reliably. They can be applied to multiple teams at multiple levels of hockey across multiple leagues in multiple countries. There is a reason major networks and pundits will use expected analytics. These are not random scribblings on some college kids math homework. These numbers have predictive qualities that are much more reliable than any other form of hockey info we have today.

If you don’t like people coming up with conclusions you don’t agree with because of these findings, then complain about those people. A number that has decades of history behind it isn’t the problem. Especially when these statistics are based around ways of playing the game that coaches have been teaching for decades now. For example, expected goal values are based on shot attempt areas that players actually shoot from and provide a coefficient to weigh each location differently. Those attempts had a higher level of success when shot in the slot. Guess where every coach, and their mother, has told players to get pucks to in order to get the best shot from? Guess where coaches have also said to limit the other team from getting shots off as well?

I never understood the hate analytics got. It’s just another way to view the sport. If the haters don’t like the attitudes of people who use statistics, then fine. But it seems like such a waste of effort to try to denounce a statistic when 15 minutes of research will explain its methodology, its history, and its calculations. That little bit of research would show that these numbers are just pieces of info you can use to gain a greater understanding of the effectiveness of a player.
 

TheDizee

Trade Jordan Kyrou ASAP | ALWAYS RIGHT
Apr 5, 2014
20,541
13,138
If the Blues can get Saad going, Kyrou to stop being a streaky flake, get Leddy back into his normal shape/play and continue to let Perunovich play and improve, this is a playoff team.

I think all of those things can happen. This team gets winnable goaltending pretty much on the norm, just a matter of getting enough offense to push up in the West. The Flames are likely going to fade, we need the Refalanche to keep being a joke as well.
 

Celtic Note

Living the dream
Dec 22, 2006
17,355
6,339
At this points, I really don't see much argument that there isn't 1D ceiling there. I'm not saying that should be the expectation or is the most likely result, but based on what he has done through his first 15 games in the franchise (and the context of the injury being a potential de-railing moment) I just don't see an argument that he has no chance of reaching that ceiling.

As for floor or expectations, is he not already a 2D/3D?

He has 12 points in 15 games. He had major success (and IMO outplayed his partner Faulk) when his deployment was on a high-minute, offensively leaned 2nd pair. In his 3 games back from injury, he was promptly given the hardest job and the most minutes on the left side of our blue line. The underlying possession numbers don't look great there, but I've been saying for years now that the Parayko pair is the hardest deployment in the sport and isn't remotely tasked with winning the possession battle. But despite being our top LHD in a brutal role in those 3 games, he has 3 points (and is +1) while averaging 24:58 a night in those 3 games. He's on the 2nd PP unit and the 2nd PK unit.

The sample size is certainly small, but he's been "the guy" on the 2nd pair and he's been the complimentary player on the 1st pair. He's succeeding in both offensive and defensive roles. He's a point behind Parayko for the scoring lead on our blueline despite missing 12 of 27 games. His skating is top pair caliber. His outlet pass appears to be more of an asset than a liability. His hockey IQ in the offensive zone is 1st pair caliber and his hockey IQ in his own end is significantly better than what I saw when he was in Edmonton. All the tools are there to grow into a legit #1 D. That doesn't mean that he will, but the ceiling is there.

This kid has had a remarkable start to his Blues tenure. I think he's the #2 D man on this team (by merit) today and I don't see that changing any time soon. He has blown my expectations out of the water and has quickly convinced me that his upside is in line with what people thought when he was drafted.
This is where I am at too.

My caveat is that it is still a small sample size, but as the sample grows and he continues to perform, my questions about him fade with each game.

He is no worse than close to a lock as a number 3 at this point and that’s assuming this stretch of play is a heater that he comes crashing down from it. I am not convinced that is the most likely of outcomes.

I do think his point total seems high, but I don’t think he will crater when he slows. So, I think a #2 is probably where he is at and is an increasingly probable baseline.

While before I assumed that #2 would be close to his ceiling, I no longer view that as his limit. He may very well have #1 upside.

I have been relatively silent on Broberg because the sample size, the injury and the coaching change are a lot to consider. I want to see a more consistent sample that is uninterrupted by what are typically outlier occurrences.

Regardless, I am pleasantly surprised with the results so far and excited to see how he plays moving forward.
 
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Celtic Note

Living the dream
Dec 22, 2006
17,355
6,339
If the Blues can get Saad going, Kyrou to stop being a streaky flake, get Leddy back into his normal shape/play and continue to let Perunovich play and improve, this is a playoff team.

I think all of those things can happen. This team gets winnable goaltending pretty much on the norm, just a matter of getting enough offense to push up in the West. The Flames are likely going to fade, we need the Refalanche to keep being a joke as well.
Kyrou lives rent free in your brain. My might as well start charging him rent.
 

HighNote

Just one more Cup
Jul 1, 2014
3,447
4,405
St. Louis
I've been loving Kyrou's play lately. He's been very consistent over the last month+ and it's nice to see. He hasn't gone more than 1 game without recording a point since the end of October, really a model of consistency. And he's looked improved on the defensive side of the puck as well. He just needs to clean up the turnovers a bit.

Here are his points over the last 16 games going back to the beginning of November:

1111110111010120 - 13 points in 16 games

He's been reliable of late.
 

BlueMed

Registered User
Jul 18, 2019
3,018
3,655
Yes, they have and they do.

These numbers have been easily available for well over a decade now. They’ve shown to measure what they claim to measure reliably. They can be applied to multiple teams at multiple levels of hockey across multiple leagues in multiple countries. There is a reason major networks and pundits will use expected analytics. These are not random scribblings on some college kids math homework. These numbers have predictive qualities that are much more reliable than any other form of hockey info we have today.

If you don’t like people coming up with conclusions you don’t agree with because of these findings, then complain about those people. A number that has decades of history behind it isn’t the problem. Especially when these statistics are based around ways of playing the game that coaches have been teaching for decades now. For example, expected goal values are based on shot attempt areas that players actually shoot from and provide a coefficient to weigh each location differently. Those attempts had a higher level of success when shot in the slot. Guess where every coach, and their mother, has told players to get pucks to in order to get the best shot from? Guess where coaches have also said to limit the other team from getting shots off as well?

I never understood the hate analytics got. It’s just another way to view the sport. If the haters don’t like the attitudes of people who use statistics, then fine. But it seems like such a waste of effort to try to denounce a statistic when 15 minutes of research will explain its methodology, its history, and its calculations. That little bit of research would show that these numbers are just pieces of info you can use to gain a greater understanding of the effectiveness of a player.
No one is saying that statistics are useless, but you have to ask yourself whether the models you are using are actually tested and validated. Are there teams and fans that use these on a daily basis? Yes. Does that mean they are statistically reliable and provide predictive value? Nope. At this point, I have yet to find a study using any regression models that supports any statistical significance behind them.

Hate to say it, but I don’t think Broberg has high enough hockey IQ to be a true all situations #1D. Not saying his IQ is bad, it’s well above average IMO…but it’s not ELITE enough to truly separate him from other top dmen in the league.

I think there’s a strong likelihood Broberg will develop into a top pairing dman, heck he’s already playing like one. If he can stay healthy then long term I see a good chance he becomes a top end 2D, maybe even a borderline/lower end 1D.


Agree that often statistics are misused, but strongly disagree that stats should only be used to support the eye test. There are times when stats are best used to support eye test, but the eye test is also subject to all sorts of biases and limitations. Relying solely on the eye test is a horrible idea.

Focusing on properly analyzing stats can lead to novel and correct understand of what is actually happening on the ice but is being largely missed by an old school eye test. In other words, sometimes it’s best to use the eye test to support a statistical analysis rather than the other way around.

Statistical analysis and the eye test have to coexist, but there is nothing wrong with putting proper statistical analysis first some times.
The problem here is that numbers don't tell the story themselves. You need context or the numbers will make little sense. Hockey is reliant on so much qualitative data that even looking at a post-game box score alone is a very poor replacement for attending a game.
 

ChicagoBlues

Terraformers
Oct 24, 2006
16,373
7,123
Yes, they have and they do.

These numbers have been easily available for well over a decade now. They’ve shown to measure what they claim to measure reliably. They can be applied to multiple teams at multiple levels of hockey across multiple leagues in multiple countries. There is a reason major networks and pundits will use expected analytics. These are not random scribblings on some college kids math homework. These numbers have predictive qualities that are much more reliable than any other form of hockey info we have today.

If you don’t like people coming up with conclusions you don’t agree with because of these findings, then complain about those people. A number that has decades of history behind it isn’t the problem. Especially when these statistics are based around ways of playing the game that coaches have been teaching for decades now. For example, expected goal values are based on shot attempt areas that players actually shoot from and provide a coefficient to weigh each location differently. Those attempts had a higher level of success when shot in the slot. Guess where every coach, and their mother, has told players to get pucks to in order to get the best shot from? Guess where coaches have also said to limit the other team from getting shots off as well?

I never understood the hate analytics got. It’s just another way to view the sport. If the haters don’t like the attitudes of people who use statistics, then fine. But it seems like such a waste of effort to try to denounce a statistic when 15 minutes of research will explain its methodology, its history, and its calculations. That little bit of research would show that these numbers are just pieces of info you can use to gain a greater understanding of the effectiveness of a player.
Weird post. What number are you talking about? Which statistic are you referring to?

Perhaps you shouldn’t get so upset when someone pushes back on these bogus models. Are you married to these advanced stats models?

I am not denouncing “a statistic”, whatever that means. I am pushing back against this appeal to authority.

If a graph or a chart is not easy to figure out, then it’s bullshit. Plain and simple. I don’t need to do “research” on something that I can plainly see is 100% bullshit.
 
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Brian39

Registered User
Apr 24, 2014
7,635
14,436
I don’t mind the pairing, because Parayko takes crazy defensive assignments. That said, I actually would prefer to split them up if Broberg continues to play so solidly. I long for the days when we had one of Petro or Parayko on the ice for 48 minutes a game.
The issue with splitting them up right now is that our cast of supporting D is still very much banged up and/or mediocre.

We may want Broberg and Parayko split up, but we really don't want Suter playing 22+ minutes a night of shutdown minutes against the other team's best players. Perunovich just had his best 10 game stretch of play in the NHL, but even the absolute biggest supporters of the guy should recognize that he should not be on the shutdown pair. PO Jospeh obviously shouldn't be in that role.

Long term, I don't want Broberg-Parayko to be used in their current deployment, I either want them split up or I want that pair to be used as an all situations top pair instead of a shut down top pair. But we need to bolster the supporting cast to do either. Suter's play with Parayko well exceeded my expectations, but Suter is not a top pair guy and at his age I think his play will only decline the more we ask him to log these huge minutes.

We'll see how much more flexible we can be once Leddy gets back into the lineup. Maybe he can ease some burden or maybe he's going to look awful coming off an injury that is obviously serious. The solution very well might not come this season. If it doesn't, I'm content letting Broberg develop/grow his defensive game in the deep end.
 

PocketNines

Cutter's Way
Apr 29, 2004
14,005
6,141
Badlands
Hate to say it, but I don’t think Broberg has high enough hockey IQ to be a true all situations #1D. Not saying his IQ is bad, it’s well above average IMO…but it’s not ELITE enough to truly separate him from other top dmen in the league.

I think there’s a strong likelihood Broberg will develop into a top pairing dman, heck he’s already playing like one. If he can stay healthy then long term I see a good chance he becomes a top end 2D, maybe even a borderline/lower end 1D.
I am glad you expressed this because I would be happy with both Broberg and Armstrong if this is all he is, and it's possible that's true.

Personally I think this team if it had one more D on top of the corps who was its best player, better than Parayko and Broberg, the Blues would be legit contenders. I think the whole "what do we have to do to fix 2C" the options would become a lot more concrete and more appealing in that situation because they'd be good enough to win a bunch of regular season games. The stopgaps would work out more, it would be a lot more akin to the Backes years where we won a lot but weren't as strong down the middle - during those years you would turn on any Blues game and still expect you could see a win against any team. D first IMO.

I think if they fix it 2C first, then it's still unstable.
 

Snubbed4Vezina

Registered User
Jul 9, 2022
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He's 23...
 

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