2023 NHL Entry Draft Discussion

[sting101]

Bure 6th round
Larinov 11th
Patrick Sandstrom 9th
Aucoin 5th
Walker 5th
Cooke 6th
Lowry 6th
LIdster 7th
Kron 5th
Bieska 5th
Valk 6th
Sopel 6th

For me--all those guys were core player--Walker of course we screwed up on

lol No

Hansen Bure Sundstrom Aucoin Lidster Bieksa sure

 

[MS]

We finished 3 points ahead of Washington in 8th. That's all people are saying here. With an iota of forethought we could have accomplished everything you're going on about while also improving our odds beyond the absolute worst shot at Bedard.

And again, I give zero shits about this in the bigger picture.

 

[Szechwan]

And again, I give zero shits about this in the bigger picture.

You will if Michkov drops. It's about putting you team in optimal positions to succeed. It's the same reason our Management team is clamoring for cap space, because it opens doors and gives you more options.

 

[bandwagonesque]

I definitely think a better shot at winning the lottery would be significant, but I don't think there's much the team could have done. The team's best players have been dominating under Tocchet. They are adjusting to his style and absorbing whatever he's teaching them. If the plan for next year is to compete, you have to go with that then try to leave holes in the roster elsewhere, which they did.

 

[MS]

You will if Michkov drops. It's about putting you team in optimal positions to succeed. It's the same reason our Management team is clamoring for cap space, because it opens doors and gives you more options.

Again, focusing on the actual star players we have in Pettersson/Hughes/Demko and having those guys happy and buying in and committed long-term is exponentially more important than getting tunnel vision on whether you move up or down a couple picks in the draft.

 

[archangel2]

lol No

Hansen Bure Sundstrom Aucoin Lidster Bieksa sure

Cooke was a massive shit disturber

 

[Peen]

Maybe, but as you say doing this would not have been the difference between 11th and 5th. It might have been worth a couple points.

People also get tunnel vision on this team. Like I said, Anaheim was playing Fowler 30 minutes/game. SJ was giving Karlsson a massive icetime boost through Feb/March to try getting him to 100 points and a Norris. Nick Suzuki was barely playing less than Pettersson.

Again, having Hughes/Pettersson/Demko happy and buying in is the absolute most important thing and I have *zero* problem with prioritizing that, especially when you look at the levels of play they hit recently.

(read the entire thread)

the disclaimer here that she denotes is that our top players are better than the other teams top players so it somewhat skews the results, but point stands.

tldr vancouver played their top guys a lot

 

[Gstank]

Only in Vancouver would people bitch about having legit top 20 players in the NHL play too much which might or might not have cost us 3 draft positions. Its such a dumb mentality that explains why this fan base is so toxic

 

[Diamonddog01]

Only in Vancouver would people bitch about having legit top 20 players in the NHL play too much which might or might not have cost us 3 draft positions. Its such a dumb mentality that explains why this fan base is so toxic

Imagine if Washington jumps up to 1st or 2nd

I think the main underlying issue here is the only sure way out of this hell the team is in is to continue getting elite talent. Coaching, depth, cap space, draft capital to take advantage of capped out teams all help - but talent is probably the biggest means of going from where are now to where we want to be. Grabbing Fantilli, Carlsson or Bedard are far, far more important in the grand scheme of things than Boeser getting an extra 10 points this season lol.

 

[credulous]

i don't think it's the end of the world vancouver went short bench and "ruined" their draft position (8th to 11th isn't really that meaningful imo. different story if they went like 4th to 7th) but tocchet undeniably coached this team like they were in a tight playoff race for no apparent reason

maybe it was because quinn hughes and elias pettersson are just fierce competitors who demanded all the ice and threatened to force their way out but i think it's way more plausible tocchet cares about his personal record or that management/ownership wanted to show well so they can talk up how good the team was after the trade deadline

again, i don't think the loss of draft standing really matters here but it's still concerning that this team always seems to be swimming against the tide and doing things differently than every other franchise (save philadelphia -- but even torts seems to be in line with the league here)

 

[m9]

Only in Vancouver would people bitch about having legit top 20 players in the NHL play too much which might or might not have cost us 3 draft positions. Its such a dumb mentality that explains why this fan base is so toxic

Every team that was out of the playoffs was hoping to lose games down the stretch. Just like teams were in the NBA or were in the NFL down the stretch.

The concept that fans cheering for their team to bottom out for a better draft position is not specific to even the NHL, much less Vancouver.

 

[Diamonddog01]

again, i don't think the loss of draft standing really matters here but it's still concerning that this team always seems to be swimming against the tide and doing things differently than every other franchise (save philadelphia -- but even torts seems to be in line with the league here)

That's somewhat odd to me as well. If going against the grain was successful that would be fine, but they juts fall flat on their faces year after year while wasting more and more draft capital - both in terms of trading away picks and in terms of meaningless late season winning streaks. This year was so galling and aggravating as the top 5 are so special.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Only in Vancouver would people bitch about having legit top 20 players in the NHL play too much which might or might not have cost us 3 draft positions. Its such a dumb mentality that explains why this fan base is so toxic

Exactly, because our superstars were not drafted #5 and #8 at all, so dropping right out of the top 10 for empty glory is no big deal, amirite? Things would've been exactly the same had we drop 3 spots in 2017 and 2018 because wanting as high a pick as possible is "such a dumb mentality".

 

[Gstank]

Exactly, because our superstars were not drafted #5 and #8 at all, so dropping right out of the top 10 for empty glory is no big deal, amirite? Things would've been exactly the same had we drop 3 spots in 2017 and 2018 because wanting as high a pick as possible is "such a dumb mentality".

You literally just made my argument. Our superstars werent top picks 3 and are probably top 3 picks in any redraft so why does drafting 8th or 11th make a difference? You still need to pick and more importantly develope the player after they are drafted. There is a very good chance that 2/3 players drafted ahead of us bust or dont hit their potential and a even greater chance there are some players who are drafted after our pick that will be top 5/10 players in a redraft after their careers are over.

You still need to develope the player after you draft them. This isnt the NBA or NFL where the top 10 players come right out of college and become regular starters in their first season. Development is just as important if not more important then the talent level that a player is drafted with.

There is a reason why Tampa and now Dallas have very good young players and why Edmonton and Buffalo have taken forever to figure out how to field a good on ice product. Their development sucked for decades

 

[Szechwan]

Exactly, because our superstars were not drafted #5 and #8 at all, so dropping right out of the top 10 for empty glory is no big deal, amirite? Things would've been exactly the same had we drop 3 spots in 2017 and 2018 because wanting as high a pick as possible is "such a dumb mentality".

3 spots back from Petey, you get Middlestat/Rasmussen/Tippet

3 spots back from Hughes you get Kravtsov/Bouchard/Wahlstrom

 

[Hodgy]

Demko's workload ended up being totally ordinary. 60 start full-season pace. They iced Dries and an AHL blueline because they traded Horvat with no replacement and traded Schenn and shut down OEL.

The single biggest thing right now, by far and like not even close to anything else, is to have the team's three young superstar players (Hughes, Demko, Pettersson) happy and committed to this team long term. And all three clearly weren't and had voiced displeasure about the team's situation. And so, yeah, they I think tried to say 'you're our guys, you will have the opportunity here to get superstar icetime and level up to the game's elite players' and that's mostly what happened.

It actually kinds of hurts my head to see the level of performance we saw from Hughes/Pettersson over the past couple months and two guys looking like they're breaking out into absolute superstars ... but that's a bad thing because it drops us a couple picks in the draft? What on earth. Priorities are just so whacked with this fanbase right now.

Also once Horvat was traded and OEL shut down they simply didn't have the depth at C and LD to do anything other than play these guys lots and it isn't an effect that was unique to here - Anaheim was playing Cam Fowler 30 minutes/game down the stretch, too, because the other options were so poor.

The other thing is the context in which that coaching change happened.

It didn't happen because the team wanted to save the playoff chances or something.

Rutherford and Allvin *clearly* wanted to fire Boudreau last summer and weren't allowed to. Then they clearly wanted to fire him after the team's poor start in October and weren't allowed to, to the point where Rutherford was publicly going on TV taking shots at Boudreau basically to challenge ownership. When they finally got the chance to make the move that they'd been fighting for a year and get the coach they wanted in place, they weren't going to sit around saying 'hmmm, actually let's just hold course here cos this terrible situation we've wanted to fix for a long time actually is helping our draft pick a few spots'.

The whole coaching thing rests at the feet of Dipshit McOwner.

Sure, that's true. I agree they would have made a coaching change last summer rather than in January. But it doesn't change the fact that they were out of the playoffs in basically December and when all of the bad teams around them were not firing their coaches we fired our coach. And sure, we probably weren't as bad as those teams around us, but we could have not fired Boudreau and then split starts between Martin and Demko when he came back, and this reasonably could have had a significant affect on our draft positions (both pick position and odds at moving up into the top two). And sure, our terrible goalie performances were largely to blame for our terrible record up until January, but these performances also reasonably could have continued if we didn't both fire the coach and change the goalie personnel.

Of course this management is prioritizing winning next year over long term considerations and that's exactly why Tochett was hired and Boudreau was fired, and why Demko played as many of the games as he did. And this frustrates many people.

again, i don't think the loss of draft standing really matters here but it's still concerning that this team always seems to be swimming against the tide and doing things differently than every other franchise (save philadelphia -- but even torts seems to be in line with the league here)

Yes, and its also just concerning that basically whenever this team/management is given the choice between immediate/short term considerations, and long term considerations, they pick the former. And its been happening for years and it hasn't been working for years.

 

[VanJack]

So the Canucks finish with the 11th worst record in the NHL, and finish with only a three percent chance of winning the lottery.

But I suppose the only 'positive' is that if they'd finished with the 12th worst record, they'd have zero opportunity to win the lottery.

But I've pretty well resigned myself to the Canucks picking 11th. They could still move up a few places, but Canucks have been in the draft lottery for seven of the past nine seasons, and that's never happened yet.

Canucks are the quintessential example of a team in the 'mushy middle'. They finished with 92 points last season and drafted 15th; and this year their point total dropped, and they'll probably do no better than 11th.

 

[Breakers]

Why do people keep saying we’re a lock - we have a super soft schedule coming up and could easily end up drafting lower

nailed it

 

[Gstank]

3 spots back from Petey, you get Middlestat/Rasmussen/Tippet

3 spots back from Hughes you get Kravtsov/Bouchard/Wahlstrome

and how do you know those players wouldnt be available if we dropped back 3 spots and how do you know we would have taken one of those 3 players. And how do you know they wouldnt have turn out better in a different organization....

And this is exactly my point.

Edit we could hve also drafted Suzuki or Necas or Boqvist and Dobson

 

[Hodgy]

Demko's workload ended up being totally ordinary. 60 start full-season pace. They iced Dries and an AHL blueline because they traded Horvat with no replacement and traded Schenn and shut down OEL.

Since coming back from a significant injury, and on a team that was effectively eliminated from the playoffs in December, Demko played the fourth most games of all goalies. This isn't ordinary at all. First, one could have expect to lighten Demko's workload as a result of injuries. Second, one could expect a team that is out of it to more evenly distribute the goalie starts so as to not win meaningless games and hurt their draft position, and indeed, this is exactly what happened with all of the other shitty teams. But again, this management was prioritizing next season so they wanted Demko to get a lot of starts so he could get back to his playing level of year's past. That is why he played the number of games he did, not because it was some ordinary event.

 

[MS]

Sure, that's true. I agree they would have made a coaching change last summer rather than in January. But it doesn't change the fact that they were out of the playoffs in basically December and when all of the bad teams around them were not firing their coaches we fired our coach. And sure, we probably weren't as bad as those teams around us, but we could have not fired Boudreau and then split starts between Martin and Demko when he came back, and this reasonably could have had a significant affect on our draft positions (both pick position and odds at moving up into the top two). And sure, our terrible goalie performances were largely to blame for our terrible record up until January, but these performances also reasonably could have continued if we didn't both fire the coach and change the goalie personnel.

Of course this management is prioritizing winning next year over long term considerations and that's exactly why Tochett was hired and Boudreau was fired, and why Demko played as many of the games as he did. And this frustrates many people.

And again, this to me is just playing video games and ignoring context and ignoring how things work in the real world.

Management wanted to fire Boudreau last summer. Ownership didn't let them. There was obviously a massive struggle between Rutherford/Allvin on this front for nearly a year as they tried to get permission to get the coach they wanted in here to put in the structure they wanted.

If you're management and you've worked tirelessly to convince ownership this change needs to happen, you follow through with it when you get the chance. You don't piss around and go back to ownership and say 'uh, actually, this thing we've passionately argued needed to happen immediately to change the culture of the the team, let's wait another 6 months so we can bump our draft position a couple spots!' It's absurd. It isn't how things work anywhere but EA Sports.

You can blame the living hell out of ownership for wrecking a season by creating the coaching mess, but there's no way you can blame management for wanting to get their preferred coach in place at the earliest opportunity. It should have happened in December 2021.

Same with Demko. He's your starter, and one of the best in the league. He's a professional. He wants to play. They maybe could have started him 1 or 2 less games but you don't split starts with a healthy Demko any more than you put Pettersson and Hughes in the press box. Again, fantasy stuff.

 

[Szechwan]

and how do you know those players wouldnt be available if we dropped back 3 spots and how do you know we would have taken one of those 3 players. And how do you know they wouldnt have turn out better in a different organization....

And this is exactly my point.

Edit we could hve also drafted Suzuki or Necas or Boqvist and Dobson

All of which are undeniably downgrades.

And let's be real. There is absolutely no indication that Vancouver is better at developing young players than any other teams. In fact, recent history would point to the exact opposite conclusion. Petey and Hughes would have succeeded anywhere imo.

 

[tradervik]

If we don’t get Bedard than I hope he goes to Washington. Watching Bedard feed Ovie would just be so much fun to watch.

Dear god no

 

[Gstank]

All of which are undeniably downgrades.

And let's be real. There is absolutely no indication that Vancouver is better at developing young players than any other teams. In fact, recent history would point to the exact opposite conclusion. Petey and Hughes would have succeeded anywhere imo.

Downgraded but they would have rised our draft position in the Podz Draft and the draft where we traded our first for Miller to the point where we probably dont trade for Miller. You arent just changing one thing you are changing multiple things that have happened to the point where we dont know what the team would have looked like if one outcome was changed.

Which is why its dumb to even thing of the what ifs because they are all connected to each other

 

[Hodgy]

And again, this to me is just playing video games and ignoring context and ignoring how things work in the real world.

Management wanted to fire Boudreau last summer. Ownership didn't let them. There was obviously a massive struggle between Rutherford/Allvin on this front for nearly a year as they tried to get permission to get the coach they wanted in here to put in the structure they wanted.

If you're management and you've worked tirelessly to convince ownership this change needs to happen, you follow through with it when you get the chance. You don't piss around and go back to ownership and say 'uh, actually, this thing we've passionately argued needed to happen immediately to change the culture of the the team, let's wait another 6 months so we can bump our draft position a couple spots!' It's absurd. It isn't how things work anywhere but EA Sports.

What's absurd is thinking that the difference in draft position is two spots. I generally get your point of view, and its not without merit, but you need to be a bit more reasonable. If our historically terrible goaltending continued because we didn't change any of the factors or context that was allowing for it (i.e., don't fire Boudreau, don't make goalie personnel changes) then it isn't unreasonable to think that we may have ended up with the 5-7th pick? If so, the reasonable delta is probably more like 3-6 picks.

You can blame the living hell out of ownership for wrecking a season by creating the coaching mess, but there's no way you can blame management for wanting to get their preferred coach in place at the earliest opportunity. It should have happened in December 2021.

Ya, you can blame management if you prefer a longer term approach to competing next year. Because its the latter reason that led to the coaching change and I think that's pretty dam clear. If management had a longer term vision then they would have waited to fire Boudreau until after the season just like every other shitty team.

Same with Demko. He's your starter, and one of the best in the league. He's a professional. He wants to play. They maybe could have started him 1 or 2 less games but you don't split starts with a healthy Demko any more than you put Pettersson and Hughes in the press box. Again, fantasy stuff.

I agree that splitting starts may have strained being reasonable, but Demko was coming back from a significant injury, and he started more times than other starters (other than a few teams battling for the playoffs and Colorado) despite no real reason for doing so other than to prioritize next year.