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HF Habs: 2023 NHL Draft part 2

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ginomini said:
Those aren’t valid points lol.

I don't think many GMs would pick Sam Bennett and his career high 49 pts over a PPG winger like Nylander or Fiala just because he had a good playoff run.

This type of narrative is just silly. Its nice and all to build a team full of Sam Bennetts, Andrew Shaws and Dustin Browns....until you miss the playoffs because oops you don't have Tkachuk, Barkov, Verhaeghe, Montour, Reinhart, Ekblad.....

And also, guys like Fiala and Nylander are only "soft" in playoffs until they make you win. Remember that last year Matthew Tkachuk was a playoffs chocker, and Phil Kessel was the biggest loser until he won three cups.
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We can debate player A vs Player B, but I think the overarching point is, you want players who show up to play when it counts, VS players who dominate when the games don't even matter.

You raise a good point too, you can't just throw everything else out the window.. but there has to be a balance... or you end up like the Toronto Maple Leafs.
 
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River Meadow said:
We can debate player A vs Player B, but I think the overarching point is, you want players who show up to play when it counts, VS players who dominate when the games don't even matter.

You raise a good point too, you can't just throw everything else out the window.. but there has to be a balance... or you end up like the Toronto Maple Leafs.
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Sure, the maple leafs did not have success as a group. But that does not mean that Nylander, Marner, and Matthews aren't great players individually.

We should only very minimaly evaluate players based on team success (or not), because once a good team has been assembled, team success comes from group cohesion much more than individual prowess.

Marner, Nylander, and Matthews can all for sure be part of cup winning teams. Just as much as Sam Bennett could. And 100% of NHL GMs would take any of the leafs trio before Sam Bennett.
 
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River Meadow said:
We can debate player A vs Player B, but I think the overarching point is, you want players who show up to play when it counts, VS players who dominate when the games don't even matter.

You raise a good point too, you can't just throw everything else out the window.. but there has to be a balance... or you end up like the Toronto Maple Leafs.
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The elite skill part of the balance is what picking 5th overall is for.
 
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ginomini said:
Sure, the maple leafs did not have success as a group. But that does not mean that Nylander, Marner, and Matthews aren't great players individually.

We should only very minimaly evaluate players based on team success (or not), because once a good team has been assembled, team success comes from group cohesion much more than individual prowess.

Marner, Nylander, and Matthews can all for sure be part of cup winning teams. Just as much as Sam Bennett could. And 100% of NHL GMs would take any of the leafs trio before Sam Bennett.
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Anything is possible,

But Marner and Matthews thus far are absolute dogsh*t in the post season.

Not just stats wise, but they literally disappear and are complete non-factors compared to their regular season value.

Nylander has shown a lot more than they have, at least thus far.
 
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Garbageyuk said:
Avs didn’t win with Girard.
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True, I forgot he got injured during the playoffs, but the point still stands. Avs still won with multiple <6ft players and their best player was a D that was <6ft.
le_sean said:
And from an asset standpoint this should show you that regardless of how good Leonard becomes, a player like him will always have great value. That shouldn’t be ignored either. Sometimes you pick skilled guys and trade them for nothing significant (Galchenyuk, Kotkaniemi). Meanwhile there’s always a GM willing to pay a premium for Leonards. Same goes with Reinbacher. Luke Schenn still somehow is valued and he’s garbage next to an 18 year old Reinbacher.
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True, but doesn't that mean it's way more important to try and draft skilled players because you can't find those in trades? Worst comes to worst you pay another GM a premium to get your own Leonard/Reinbacher?

I actually don't think that "worst comes to worst we can trade them for a nice haul" is good asset management when you can just pick the potentially better player even if they're shorter.

FWIW I do like both Leonard and Reinbacher, but do think that all of Michkov, Smith and Benson have higher ceilings and would prefer picking them.
 
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Balthazar said:
If anything Girard is a proof that size matters in the playoffs. He either got overwhelmed or injured in every single playoff run with the Avs. Literally all of them.

Makar was only a quarter of an inch under 6" at the combine and is built like a rock. He isn't small.
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So does that mean Marchessault winning the Conn Smythe is proof that size matters in playoffs? Or does it not work the other way around?
River Meadow said:
These are valid points from Granty Pooh:

View attachment 718910
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Nylander was arguably the best player on the Leafs during the playoffs and has repeatedly contributed when both Matthews and Marner weren't producing. Give me Nylander over Bennett any day.
 
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Harry Kakalovich said:
Leonard is an up and down winger who skates hard and takes the puck to the net. Scouts seem to love him. I might prefer Benson though.
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It depends.... both can be good the problem is most fans over react one way or another. I prefer Leonard because I feel his game is the most effective and easily transferable to the NHL and he has more untapped potential than given credit for but I would not insult or threaten dumb or freakout if another poster has Benson above him.

AHShadow said:
So does that mean Marchessault winning the Conn Smythe is proof that size matters in playoffs? Or does it not work the other way around?
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Marchessault, Kucherov, Kaprizov, Gaudreau, Point.

They also have all one thing in common that is not often talked about. They were not top 5 pick, nevermind 1st round pick and in some case went undrafted.

If we are talking about a 2nd round pick or late 1st. Give me all the talented midget you want.
 
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ginomini said:
Those aren’t valid points lol.

I don't think many GMs would pick Sam Bennett and his career high 49 pts over a PPG winger like Nylander or Fiala just because he had a good playoff run.

This type of narrative is just silly. Its nice and all to build a team full of Sam Bennetts, Andrew Shaws and Dustin Browns....until you miss the playoffs because oops you don't have Tkachuk, Barkov, Verhaeghe, Montour, Reinhart, Ekblad.....

And also, guys like Fiala and Nylander are only "soft" in playoffs until they make you win. Remember that last year Matthew Tkachuk was a playoffs chocker, and Phil Kessel was the biggest loser until he won three cups.

Edit: Also, William Nylander has 40 pts in 50 playoff games ffs, this is actually really good.
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Very well said. Grant McCagg is a bad scout and loudmouth. I hope our organization doesn’t think like he does and it is a bitter shame our previous management of ten years actually was aligned with McCagg style thinking.

River Meadow said:
We can debate player A vs Player B, but I think the overarching point is, you want players who show up to play when it counts, VS players who dominate when the games don't even matter.

You raise a good point too, you can't just throw everything else out the window.. but there has to be a balance... or you end up like the Toronto Maple Leafs.
Click to expand...
You know what’s not easy to get at the NHL trade and free agent market? Player A.

You know what every team can get at any time? Player B.

Using a 5OA to draft Player B is catastrophically dumb and this is why Grant McCagg is pushing for it.
 
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JeffreyLFC said:
It depends.... both can be good the problem is most fans over react one way or another. I prefer Leonard because I feel his game is the most effective and easily transferable to the NHL and he has more untapped potential than given credit for but I would not insult or threaten dumb or freakout if another poster has Benson above him.


Marchessault, Kucherov, Kaprizov, Gaudreau, Point.

They also have all one thing in common that is not often talked about. They were not top 5 pick, nevermind 1st round pick and in some case went undrafted.

If we are talking about a 2nd round pick or late 1st. Give me all the talented midget you want.
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I think the point that matters more is where would you draft those guys in their respective years in a redraft? All of them would go near the top. Pick the best players when you can. Why risk them falling to someone else? Makes no sense.
 
Kaladin said:
I think the point that matters more is where would you draft those guys in their respective years in a redraft? All of them would go near the top. Pick the best players when you can. Why risk them falling to someone else? Makes no sense.
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Obviously but they are attainable outside the 1st in almost every draft. Case in point Lane Hutson last year.
This year there is an abundance of small very skilled forward more than I can recall. Most of them will fail but if you hit on one it's quite possible he will become a superstar. For instance, one of my favourite prospect in the whole draft is Bradly Nadeau, I see tremendous upside more than many in the top 10 but he is small and possibly droping to the late 1st round which is incredible value for him and ludicrous because he has star potential. I would rather target him than getting a Zach Benson (who I also like a lot) but that is more likely not falling further than 10. The key is finding the proper balance to build a true contender. I feel Leonard is a rare specimen and he would be a game changer and a key player for many years and the type of player you need to have a contender and in a very competitive team. I think people do not like him because he is effective and not flashy. Everytime I have watched him play I always felt he was the best player at the USNTDP, I also see star potential and possibly a future captain. My comparable is a better goalscorer Landeskog.
 
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The Michkov is Messi and also Caufield is Messi thing isn't that silly of a take from Button. Both Caufield and Michkov create in similar ways, and it was said about both that ''it won't transfer.'' That specific way is in making the goaltender make a lot of saves from all kinds of different angles, and finding the soft ice.

If anything transfers it would be a guy who's putting 4, 5, 6 pucks on net per game.
 
Nylander did produce points in the playoffs. But the guy is still a complete no-show. Soft as drouin. If you watch the games, he is litterally their worst PO performer. Never in traffic. Id never want a guy like that in my top6.
 
The tricky thing with Smith or Leonard or Perreault is that they all played on the same line. It's always pretty tough to evaluate guys on the same line to know which one actually translates the success going forward. The Scott Glennie effect. Someone off that line will probably be a real good player, but which one? Really tough to know. At 5 I probably prefer Benson to those guys, partially for that reason.

Btw - did you know there are essentially 2 draft threads? I just realized that...
 
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BergevinBurner said:
Only 10 days to go now.

I just hope Michkov doesn't go to Washington. It'd be absolutely disgusting if 2 recent cup winners in Chicago and Washington both get gifted brand new generational players in the same draft.
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You know it's happening. They were the only ones willing for Miro last season, and they will strike again this season. Happened with Kuz too. They have the scouts and connections in Russia to assess properly what's happening. I hope that Bobrov can make it work for us. We'll see.
 
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Harry Kakalovich said:
The tricky thing with Smith or Leonard or Perreault is that they all played on the same line. It's always pretty tough to evaluate guys on the same line to know which one actually translates the success going forward. The Scott Glennie effect. Someone off that line will probably be a real good player, but which one? Really tough to know. At 5 I probably prefer Benson to those guys, partially for that reason.

Btw - did you know there are essentially 2 draft threads? I just realized that...
Click to expand...
Benson played Geekie and Savoie himself
 
Harry Kakalovich said:
The tricky thing with Smith or Leonard or Perreault is that they all played on the same line. It's always pretty tough to evaluate guys on the same line to know which one actually translates the success going forward. The Scott Glennie effect. Someone off that line will probably be a real good player, but which one? Really tough to know. At 5 I probably prefer Benson to those guys, partially for that reason.

Btw - did you know there are essentially 2 draft threads? I just realized that...
Click to expand...
There's 3 for some reason. The same shit gets talked about in each one.
 
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