Rumor: 2023-24 Trade Rumors and Free Agency: Season Thread

[SirLoinOfCloth]

Hit me up when MacD does something like this

 

[missionAvs]

I do think this one is different tho. Your being told by players for the most part that they think differently when those guys are on the ice. At that point your just pretending that it doesn't exist and your opinion is more important than what actual players think. I think it's the rare case where you probably do need to have played hockey/know people who did to understand it fully.

The impact/how important it is is certainly debatable. Especially nowadays. I'd be fine with Dermy being swapped out for a useful hockey player.

I guess it depends what you mean by competitive because I'm sure it's just some arbitrary standard that as soon as someone posts their experience will get shifted to meet the narrative of "having a big guy that sucks at hockey deters the bad stuff from happening".

I'll tell you what, I played AA up in Michigan in my youth and we all pretty much went out guns blazing with no care in the world as to who was on the other team. Hell, I played an age group up when I was even younger and would sometimes literally bounce off the bigger players because I would try to line em up just the same haha. And yes, dirty shit happened just the same. I would maybe understand the argument if it was a big mean player that was actually good and played a significant amount of time but do you really think that other teams are shaking in their boots at the thought of MacDoofus being on the ice for 4 minutes a night? You just know that even if you do have the low chance of running into him out there, there's no way the dummy's gonna actually hit you lol.

 

[Metallo]

MacDermid is real f***ing bad at everything, and too much of a heavyweight to fight anyone. How is there this long of an argument?

Exactly, at some point no one will fight a huge enforcer so he can't do his job of "Pacifier". Your huge enforcer needs to be able to skate to hit guys back and "run around" when no one wants to fight him. That is also a deterrent. But MacD can't do that.

Overall I think it's better to have "team toughness". 4-5 guys that can drop the gloves at any moment but can also play well. A team like the Avs of ´22 with Landy, Kadri, Manson, and Johnson. Players on the other team can't really refuse a fight against these guys, but they can for a "useless thug". Part of the code.

 

[Alienblood]

I don't think you need to have played the game to understand this concept (though it obviously helps) and like I said before, it's hard to prove a negative on this, that Dermy actually deterred hits that never happened.

But one of the best arugments that he does, is how the players want him on the team. He makes them feel a few inches taller out on the ice, but more importantly, I think the real reason they like Dermy or Reeves on their team, is they know they think twice about making questionable hits when guys like that are on the other team. So they want them on their team to make the opposition think twice.

Not every time like we both have said, but sometimes. I just don't see a good argument that he has no impact as a deterrent. Maybe not as much as in the past, and it's up for debate whether it's worth it in today's game, but he's not a non factor in this regard.

Players like Nate, who has such high standards for the way his teammates make plays with the puck, doesn't love Dermy on the team just for his personality.

Exactly. The players know and that's what matters.

 

[Metallo]

I keep thinking back to a Tony Twist interview that was in The Athletic a few months ago. There was a lot of word salad in there, but he also said that in order for deterrence to really work, an enforcer has to show he's willing to flip out on someone on the other team (whether in terms of a one-sided fight or repeated slashes to a star player) if liberties are being taken. Still waiting for MacDermid to do this to someone, who the league is put on notice and there is a more credible deterrent. Yeah, there was/is a code that you don't fight outside your weight class, but old school enforcers could be nasty in other ways toward the skill players on other teams as a way of message sending.

Absolutely, the enforcer can't be neutered, like MacD is. The threat works if your guy can go off the rails once in a while.

 

[Alienblood]

See I don’t buy this. This has always been the argument. Because it’s this weird, intangible, indiscernible thing, there’s no way whatsoever to measure it or even determine whether or not it exists. It’s the Mythical Unicorn of Deterrence as far as I’m concerned because MAYBE this one guy pulled up on a potential hit, or maybe that other guy thought twice earlier in the game before lowering his cheap shot in the third period. Nope. Sorry. I’ve seen way too much evidence to the contrary.

There’s just too much heavy lifting involved to justify the whole myth of “The Deterrent” for me to believe it’s real.

As for your “DUI” analogy, yes, the threat of actual, material, REAL punishment deters people from committing crime. And the only effective way you cut down on cheap shots in hockey is if DOPS actually does its job and hands down severe penalties. Then players either clean up their act or teams won’t keep them around any longer.

Goons are not the threat of “real” punishment. They’re the equivalent of “Scared Straight.” Anyone who doesn’t know what that is should look it up.

The bottom line is why fo the players want Dermy on the team and why do you think Bednar plays him.

Why also do you think Sakic went and got Dermy in the 1st place. Does he not know anything about the game or should he just listen to the fans that don't want Dermy playing half the games.

Do you not want to see Dermy play Vegas in a regular season meaningless game ?

 

[Richard88]

Typical answers from non-hockey players. I'm 6'12 and 457lbs, I'll beat anyone, including MacDermid's scrawny @$$ any day of the week!

6'12" is actually just 7'0". You would know that if you really were 7'0", like me.

 

[Pokecheque]

The bottom line is why fo the players want Dermy on the team and why do you think Bednar plays him.

Why also do you think Sakic went and got Dermy in the 1st place. Does he not know anything about the game or should he just listen to the fans that don't want Dermy playing half the games.

Do you not want to see Dermy play Vegas in a regular season meaningless game ?

I’ve already explained why I think teams go out and get these guys. Not gonna repeat myself here. They resisted the urge for years. I’m glad they at least didn’t use too much cap room to get the guy at least.

And Bednar plays him like, three minutes max. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

 

[Alienblood]

I’ve already explained why I think teams go out and get these guys. Not gonna repeat myself here. They resisted the urge for years. I’m glad they at least didn’t use too much cap room to get the guy at least.

And Bednar plays him like, three minutes max. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

OK but if there are games he should play in it’s against Vegas

 

[Pokecheque]

OK but if there are games he should play in it’s against Vegas

For all the good it’ll do. I’d rather they put in an actual player but whatever.

 

[Alienblood]

For all the good it’ll do. I’d rather they put in an actual player but whatever.

maybe today is his day lol.

 

[The Moops]

I mean MacD tries to run him earlier in the shift and him standing right next to him does nothing to deter him from running Kuemper haha

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Dermi just doesn’t seem to have that psycho side of him that would make him a terrifying enforcer. There are some goons who look like they are intent on hurting someone on the ice, big hit or cheap shot. Dermi legitimately looks like he just wants to play hockey, but his skill set just doesn’t allow him to do so

 

[Balthazar]

To me "dirty hit happened despite this tough guy being on the bench" is the same argument as "this guy died in a car crash despite wearing his seat belt..."

AFAIK no one here played in the NHL and from what I've heard over the years it's pretty much unanimous from current and former players that these guys ARE deterrent.

MacDermid was a reaction from the front office after what happened to Ryan Graves in the Vegas series at the end of game one, which was a turning point. Let's not pretend that we know more than Joe Sakic if these guys are useful or not.

 

[JH21]

If Macdermid could actually play every game(or if it was pre 2003) I’d slightly understand him being on the roster. The issue is he plays ~45 games a season and is such a liability at actual hockey Bednar can’t even play him 9 minutes a game…

Is MacDermid actually more of a liability than Drouin or Tatar? What do those guys bring to the lineup?

 

[AllAboutAvs]

I do think enforcer have their place on the team. Where I disagree is when the enforcer is pretty well useless at hockey. You want an enforcer that can provide more than just fighting. If Dermy could at least skate well and provide good forechecking to create turnovers I would be more than OK having him in the lineup.

 

[UncleRisto]

Is MacDermid actually more of a liability than Drouin or Tatar? What do those guys bring to the lineup?

MacDermid is the same as dressing 11+6, because he doesn't play.

 

[JH21]

The same

I do think enforcer have their place on the team. Where I disagree is when the enforcer is pretty well useless at hockey. You want an enforcer that can provide more than just fighting. If Dermy could at least skate well and provide good forechecking to create turnovers I would be more than OK having him in the lineup.

Ideally we could have a few guys like Landeskog, Wilson or a prime Lucic but those guys are probably harder to find than true #1 centers. They just don't exist. And in the rare occasion a team gets one they get PAID and they don't leave.

 

[expatriatedtexan]

The only person on here who has been confirmed to have played at a high level is Ian Cole's burner account that chimes in from time to time.

Also, Scotty Bowman's Finnish uncle sometimes stop by to teach, he's a hockey professor.

 

[UncleRisto]

The only person on here who has been confirmed to have played at a high level is Ian Cole's burner account that chimes in from time to time.

Also, Scotty Bowman's Finnish uncle sometimes stop by to teach, he's a hockey professor.

The "high level hockey" that gets brought up, too, is always some bullshit college and they weren't good, and have amounted to nothing better since.

I should note that this is a generalization and absolutely not a personal dig at anyone.

 

[Balthazar]

Ian Cole's burner account

I wonder if he's posting on the Canucks board these days.

 

[Gumballhead]

If ANY of you ever disagree with me for any reason : you've never played competitive hockey!

I’d like to piggyback off this and let y’all know that if you ever disagree with me you’ll also never ever play competitive hockey!

 

[EdAVSfan]

More.

That’s why he plays 4.5 minutes.

I could only imagine the disaster if he was on the ice for 15ish minutes.

 

[Gumballhead]

Yeah I mean clearly the front office loves him and Bednar is fine with him and probably is why we don’t see him going apeshit, and you hear the players love him, and he hardly plays so who really cares? I like it when he get to play, him big snowmobile and easy to root for.

 

[GoNordiquesGo]

I’ve already explained why I think teams go out and get these guys. Not gonna repeat myself here. They resisted the urge for years. I’m glad they at least didn’t use too much cap room to get the guy at least.

And Bednar plays him like, three minutes max. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

1) You (or lets say someone average because I don't know you) in front of a big guy who pisses you off and calls your mom a *** = your reaction is X1

2) You with a Big Dude buddy with a baseball bat beside you, in front of a big guy who pisses you off and calls your mom a *** = your reaction is X2

3) You in front of a big guy who pisses you off and calls your mom a ***, with a Big Dude buddy with a baseball bat baside him = your reaction is X3

X1 isn't = X2 isn't equal X3
This conclusion is NOT true for everyone, because some people are immune to intimidation or fear. These people are not the majority. For everyone else, that equation is true. Intimidation is a real thing... its doesn't have the same hold on everyone, but to deny that it exists, even in an environment like the NHL, is weird...

IMO, Having a debate about whether having an enforcer is a good use of the roster spot in today's NHL is absolutely fair. But to flat out deny that intimidation exist and to argue that enforcers have absolutely ZERO impact on others' behavior is baffling...