GDT: 2023-24 season game 64 LA Kings vs New York Islanders @7:30pm 3/11/24

[johnjm22]

He wasn't great in 2022 either.

Yes. He was banged up yet again. He missed games in April because of injury and his play was fading.

In that season, Lizotte was near the top of the league in hits received P/60. That's kind of nuts for a guy his size. No one on the team gets hit more than him.

This will be the 3rd year in a row his play has faded later in the season.

 

[BigKing]

Yes. He was banged up yet again. He missed games in April because of injury and his play was fading.

In that season, Lizotte was near the top of the league in hits received P/60. That's kind of nuts for a guy his size. No one on the team gets hit more than him.

This will be the 3rd year in a row his play has faded later in the season.

He's Rudy Ruettiger. Bowlby's latest comments on him again reiterated the inspirational play.

Kudos to him for the 100th time: won't take anything away from him and I wish his determination and will could be transferred to many other players on the team. That said, he can't play this way and survive. Once the playoffs start and everyone is hustling and finishing checks at the same level he is, he can't hang.

It's just like, science or something.

 

[Kurrilino]

Pretty obvious answers. The team had flatlined, Hiller is what, 10-5-1 or something like that?

He got the veterans to perform. The injuries meant that a number of kids HAD to be dressed, but its obvious that they aren't trusted to play yet. Its a no-brainer that he would play JAD over Kaliyev given what they are trying to accomplish. JAD never actively hurt you the way Kaliyev does. Kaliyev's low effort forecheck and backcheck were key components in a goal against the other night. He doesn't have the track record of a veteran making those mistakes, and holding him accountable now might help him in the future. If he responds poorly to the challenge, well, that's on him. Not everybody makes it. We saw a player with an arguably better pedigree in Bjornfot get lost in the shuffle. Had they prioritized development, yes, of course they might have hit on more of their swings.

You can't blame Hiller for anything, he is getting results. And they are terrific results, even if the end goal is the longest of shots.

Its Blake's responsibility to comprise a roster, and he has chosen to chase something they cannot catch. We all KNOW this, but if you have a veteran heavy roster with misguided aspirations, that isn't on the coach to rectify. The path to nowhere started with Danault signing.

This is one of the most short sighted approaches i have ever seen.
And i don't mean you post, i assume this is what the staff thinks.

We are playing in an AHL division, the Hot Dog salesman from section 319 could get veterans to do something.
As a coach you have to answer the question, can you win the cup with the team you have.
The clear answer is no, so why relying on the vets?

 

[johnjm22]

He's Rudy Ruettiger. Bowlby's latest comments on him again reiterated the inspirational play.

Kudos to him for the 100th time: won't take anything away from him and I wish his determination and will could be transferred to many other players on the team. That said, he can't play this way and survive. Once the playoffs start and everyone is hustling and finishing checks at the same level he is, he can't hang.

It's just like, science or something.

I think he could hang in the playoffs, in theory, if he wasn't already beat up from playing 80 games in the previous 7 months. AND the coaches could refrain from playing him further up in the lineup than he should be.

Kings were lacking an additional center in each of the last two playoff series (thus the reason PLD is here), and they tried playing Lizotte further up in the lineup to compensate.

Coaches love guys like Lizotte. They love the blue collar hustle and work ethic, they can't help but overplay him.

 

[bland]

Having an offensively capable fourth line helps make up for not having any game-breaking offensive players, which is the situation the Kings are in.

I do agree with you, in an ideal world you want to have enough scoring in the Top 9 where the fourth line isn't counted on for offense and can be filled with effective non-scoring players. But as this team is currently constructed they are going to need to get a couple of goals from the 4th line to beat any of the teams they are likely to play in Round 1.

They do have an offensively capable 4th line, and they were lights out over the first month - and far more effective in all three zones than the Kaliyev/Lemieux configuration.

Problem was that Dubois sucked and Grundstrom was on fire, so they thought that they would try a more direct approach with PLD by bumping Grundstrom up. Predictably, Grundstrom immediately cooled off then got hurt.

The Kings 4th line, when healthy, is one of the strengths of the team. No team is going to thrive when your 14th, 15th and 16th forwards are replacing your Lizzotes, Grundstroms, Arvidssons and Kempes for weeks at a time.

And dedicating SO much hate at those mid-teens depth players is misguided when there are a good half dozen bigger and more expensive fish to fry.

 

[bland]

I actually like JAD more than most

buuuuut all of these arguments about 'won't actually hurt you' collapse on themselves when he's getting middle six time and Kaliyev is getting a handful of defensive minutes on the bottom line. Remember Clarke's first game where he ONLY palyed with the 4th line and got ZERO offensive zone starts? "ah yeah he needs to work on his defense" well everyone but the coaching staff seems to know he's not ME Vlasic, but here we are.

Like yes, we're not stupid, we get that Kaliyev has to have a baseline defensive ability, but if you're using him as ONLY a stopper and NOT on the PP or with skilled offensive players and ozone starts, it seems dishonest to criticize him as a liability while letting 'low event' guys like JAD skate simply because they're not doing anything at all...i'd argue a guy like that skating 2nd/3rd line IS actively hurting you with his dogshit pts/60, that's a waste of ozone starts. Not HIS fault of course--its' just stupid usage--just like it's stupid usage of Kaliyev. I don't see why both things can't be true.

Hell guys like JAD and Lewis with brick hands do well in limited minutes because they equalize the game by mucking the puck around and bouncing it everywhere, airing out the skill guys. But a guy who needs high touches? What do you think he's gonna do when his hands are cold from sitting on the bench for 10 minutes, and low confidence because the staff is electroshocking him every time he doesn't cover someone else's check?

Its a VERY flimsy argument to suggest Lewis on the 1st line 'doesn't hurt you.'

No, it isn't. Its minimal usage late in games.

Kaliyev isn't earning his time. He isn't going to be a top 9 player on this team when healthy - even when unhealthy.

The idea of Kaliyev is far more appealing than the real Kaliyev. He is a one trick pony who requires more assistance than most offense-only players. He can't carry the puck, he can't retrieve it, he can't win board battles, he can't sort out coverages, he can't put multiple good shifts together.

He can shoot the hell out of the puck - if others create the time and space for him. There simply isn't enough there to justify the problems, there are too many quality players in his way to show the patience needed, and the teams aspirations - misguided as they may be - dictate that it is better to have safer players getting his minutes.

 

[BigKing]

I think he could hang in the playoffs, in theory, if he wasn't already beat up from playing 80 games in the previous 7 months. AND the coaches could refrain from playing him further up in the lineup than he should be.

Kings were lacking an additional center in each of the last two playoff series (thus the reason PLD is here), and they tried playing Lizotte further up in the lineup to compensate.

Coaches love guys like Lizotte. They love the blue collar hustle and work ethic, they can't help but overplay him.

It's all theoretical, right? My theory is that he can't hang regardless of the 80 games. Yes, he'd be more effective until he got hurt.

He thrives because he works harder and tries harder than everyone else: he has to in order to be an NHL player. Problem is that these much larger NHL players don't treat the playoffs like the second game of a back-to-back on the tail end of a five game road trip in January. Once all of the bigger guys, which is basically the entire league, match his intensity, he loses.

 

[DoktorJeep]

If Kopitar at $10M could outplay McDavid then Lizotte is awesome at 4C at $1.6M+. Since that’s not the case you have a guy that loses his matchups in the postseason if he plays at all, while blocking cheaper kids with higher upside.

It’s great to have feel good stories like Lizotte, Iafallo and Walker when you suck. But as time has shown, you have to upgrade these guys when you’re going for it.

Lizotte’s a 26 yo RFA who plays a little over 11 mins a night. It’s no coincidence that he gets worst as the team gets better. At this point there has to be some cheaper player who can exceed his contribution.

 

[bland]

If Kopitar at $10M could outplay McDavid then Lizotte is awesome at 4C at $1.6M+. Since that’s not the case you have a guy that loses his matchups in the postseason if he plays at all, while blocking cheaper kids with higher upside.

It’s great to have feel good stories like Lizotte, Iafallo and Walker when you suck. But as time has shown, you have to upgrade these guys when you’re going for it.

Lizotte’s a 26 yo RFA who plays a little over 11 mins a night. It’s no coincidence that he gets worst as the team gets better. At this point there has to be some cheaper player who can exceed his contribution.

They may think they are going for it, but they aren't going anywhere.

And this idea that if your top guys are outmatched then you need more offense from your bottom six to balance just isn't how hockey works. You don't play a Kaliyev over a Lewis because Draisaitl is eating Kopitar's lunch, you double down on your defensive game and play for a low event, low scoring game.

The Kings didn't lose to Edmonton the last two years because they couldn't go toe to toe offensively, they lost because they were completely dominated along the walls and in front of the net, especially on the PK. They hung in last year until Fiala came back. They opened up their game and got caved in. Their 4th line couldn't get out of their zone.

If you guys can't see why Trevor Lewis is unquestionably the better choice than Turcotte, Kaliyev or Fagemo to resolve those problems, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[DoktorJeep]

They may think they are going for it, but they aren't going anywhere.

And this idea that if your top guys are outmatched then you need more offense from your bottom six to balance just isn't how hockey works. You don't play a Kaliyev over a Lewis because Draisaitl is eating Kopitar's lunch, you double down on your defensive game and play for a low event, low scoring game.

The Kings didn't lose to Edmonton the last two years because they couldn't go toe to toe offensively, they lost because they were completely dominated along the walls and in front of the net, especially on the PK. They hung in last year until Fiala came back. They opened up their game and got caved in. Their 4th line couldn't get out of their zone.

If you guys can't see why Trevor Lewis is unquestionably the better choice than Turcotte, Kaliyev or Fagemo to resolve those problems, I don't know what to tell you.

They think they’re going for it and spend the money to back up the idea.

They lost in the first round because the other team was better. They were worse because the talent wasn’t worth the money and it left them short to improve the depth.

Trevor Lewis and Lizotte are great in a vacuum. But if you’re trying to maximize on previously poor choices, they fail to move the needle.

There isn’t one exact way to win.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

They may think they are going for it, but they aren't going anywhere.

And this idea that if your top guys are outmatched then you need more offense from your bottom six to balance just isn't how hockey works. You don't play a Kaliyev over a Lewis because Draisaitl is eating Kopitar's lunch, you double down on your defensive game and play for a low event, low scoring game.

The Kings didn't lose to Edmonton the last two years because they couldn't go toe to toe offensively, they lost because they were completely dominated along the walls and in front of the net, especially on the PK. They hung in last year until Fiala came back. They opened up their game and got caved in. Their 4th line couldn't get out of their zone.

If you guys can't see why Trevor Lewis is unquestionably the better choice than Turcotte, Kaliyev or Fagemo to resolve those problems, I don't know what to tell you.

f*** yeah bro, let's roll JAD-Kopitar-Lewis to victory.

If you can't see why 'net gain' is more important than 'no events', I don't know what to tell you.

 

[King'sPawn]

f*** yeah bro, let's roll JAD-Kopitar-Lewis to victory.

If you can't see why 'net gain' is more important than 'no events', I don't know what to tell you.

The problem is a chunk of the youth isn't experienced enough (and with Kaliyev, confident enough) to contribute to net gains consistently.

But then again we can tie it back to how the coaches manage the bench, whether it's Hiller or Smith.

It's still frustrating, to me, when vets who consistently make mistakes where they should know better gets punished less than the youth... who get punished when they should know better.

 

[bland]

f*** yeah bro, let's roll JAD-Kopitar-Lewis to victory.

If you can't see why 'net gain' is more important than 'no events', I don't know what to tell you.

That's the problem here, we are on the same page with what they SHOULD be doing. I am addressing the "I don't understand why they are playing xxxx instead of yyyy" arguments, because there is logic to their decisions. There is a meritocracy in place here, like it or not, and they are basing their decisions around who is going to help them NOW. Playing Lewis over Turcotte in the third period is based on the fact that Lewis is going to do a hell of a lot more to help the Kings at the moment. Giving Byfield and Lizotte extra shifts when they are rolling makes sense. Dressing 7 defensemen when you don't trust Clarke or want cover for a healing Anderson makes sense, especially when the only other option is Kaliyev who has been dog shit over the last few months.

And I am the goddam OG "Blake is effing this shit up" poster, so save the sarcasm.

 

[bland]

The problem is a chunk of the youth isn't experienced enough (and with Kaliyev, confident enough) to contribute to net gains consistently.

But then again we can tie it back to how the coaches manage the bench, whether it's Hiller or Smith.

It's still frustrating, to me, when vets who consistently make mistakes where they should know better gets punished less than the youth... who get punished when they should know better.

Dubois is the only vet who fits that criteria, and I don't think any of us can figure out if they are trying to get him going or giving him enough leash to hang himself. They know he is effing dog, its no secret. But everything they have tried has led to mixed results at best.

If they were healthy, maybe a scratch is in order. They aren't, so they appear to be leaning heavily into hope.

At least Fiala has shown glimpses of getting it. Everybody else is at the level of what should be expected of themselves.

Its a good team, no more, no less, damaging their future to try to claw out something now.

 

[SherVaughn30]

At this point I could see the Kings targeting Jones. That takes away a few guaranteed losses next season, don't think any goalie has ever had our number like him.

Jones is a Backup/3rd string goalie now. Kings don't need more of the same.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The problem is a chunk of the youth isn't experienced enough (and with Kaliyev, confident enough) to contribute to net gains consistently.

But then again we can tie it back to how the coaches manage the bench, whether it's Hiller or Smith.

It's still frustrating, to me, when vets who consistently make mistakes where they should know better gets punished less than the youth... who get punished when they should know better.

That's the problem here, we are on the same page with what they SHOULD be doing. I am addressing the "I don't understand why they are playing xxxx instead of yyyy" arguments, because there is logic to their decisions. There is a meritocracy in place here, like it or not, and they are basing their decisions around who is going to help them NOW. Playing Lewis over Turcotte in the third period is based on the fact that Lewis is going to do a hell of a lot more to help the Kings at the moment. Giving Byfield and Lizotte extra shifts when they are rolling makes sense. Dressing 7 defensemen when you don't trust Clarke or want cover for a healing Anderson makes sense, especially when the only other option is Kaliyev who has been dog shit over the last few months.

And I am the goddam OG "Blake is effing this shit up" poster, so save the sarcasm.

I mean I think we all agree here, but to me this started to sail past the catch 22 of “we can’t play the kids they aren’t ready yet” fallacy as infinitum and actually started to blame the kids for their performances, that’s why I hit the brakes.

I obviously see the merit in “intangibles” players and value good checkers as much as anyone, especially in letting the air out of a game. And even situationally playing them
Up the lineup. My issue is situational means everything outside of five min in the first period and then wondering why they can’t do anything with the puck an hour later at their next touch.