Speculation: 2023-24 Roster Thread
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TopShelfWaterBottle
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I hope this is tthe case.
I just don't see how you can make this claim. Drysdale's skating is far superior, he has 113 games of NHL experience, and he's generally shown a lot of skill and good hockey IQ. LaCombe has 140 college games which developmentally is no where close to an NHL experience.
Drysdale was forced to play a top 4 role and, while he made a lot of mistakes (as would be expected), he looked the part. His entire career he's played "up" a level - against older players - and always excelled. LaCombe has played two games, on a bottom pair sheltered role. And if you compaire their play in international tournaments and other elite competition, Drysdale has always shined and LaCombe has been more of a role player (even though LaCombe is a year older).
Not bashing LaCombe. I thought he looked pretty good in the limited games he played, and I was rally watching him. I really like hiim as a prospect. But to my eye, and based on the statistical metrics you so adore, Drysdale is far superior currently and as a prospect (assuming he mostly healthy next year).
LaCombe is only a top 4 d-man on the ducks because they have no real d-men other than Fowler and Drysdale.
Responding to another post or two above, if Fantilli isn't signing after the draft and wants to go back to another year in college, I think there's a real chance the ducks don't take him. Can't risk him not signing.
TopShelfWaterBottle
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Dumba for some reason is not same Dumba from 3-4 years ago...which is weird dude is 28, 29 years old. I think our D acquisition should be long term one, good top4 D 5 mil per year who is also gonna play with Drysdale, Mintyukov, Olen in the future.
I'm not afraid giving Graves 5 or 6 years...
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The Midnight Burrito
True Fan
Not to speak for HD but if the claim is that LaCombe is ahead of Drysdale on their individual development curves (not in absolute terms), then I'd buy that. And then I could use it to help justify starting LaCombe in a sheltered top 4 role.
Obviously at this point that's not possible with this roster because the only guy we have that can shelter anyone is Cam and I wouldn't put LaCombe out 20 minutes a game. So the only way to shelter him is to limit his ice time on the 3rd pair.
BuiumSaveUs
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I would be lol.
Gavrikov is the only guy on the market I would give a ton of term to.
I would love to be able to bring in Gudas. He would bring some stability and bite to the back end. But not sure he'd be able to handle those minutes and matchups. It's been 6+ years since he was even close to playing 20mins a night.
He struggled a lot in San Diego at times. If we can square away the coaching and systems in both levels, having the kids develop in ahl and “graduate” would be great. I’m sure some outliers as always will show themselves
SD was a mess, almost as bad as the Ducks. Would like to see him play for an actual competent coach and system.
robbieboy3686
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Hasn’t it been said many times, by many insiders and experts, that some young dmen do better once they arrive at the nhl level due to the ahl being so chaotic?
Hockey Duckie
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Make the claim that LaCombe's development is further along than Drysdale? Sure.
- LaCombe's bio: 6'2 and 200 lbs (per Minny page, was 6'2 and 190 for his freshman year; EP has him listed at 6'2 and 201 lbs)
- Drysales' bio: 5'11 and 186 lbs (per EP)
You're using a slight of hand technique: 113 NHL games vs 140 college games.
Let's break this down into seasons to reveal the flaw(s) of your argument.
- Drysdale
- D+1: 24 NHL games, 8 pts, 0.33 ppg, -12 rating, 23 blocked shots (Looked lost after first 4-6 games)
- D+2: 81 NHL games, 32 pts, 0.40 ppg, -26 rating, 72 blocked shots (I just wanted him to last the season not looking overwhelmed and he did)
- D+3: 8 NHL games, 0 pts, 0.00 ppg, -3 rating, 6 blocked shots (In game 7 and 8, it looked like he was turning the corner. Then he's injured for the rest of the season.)
- Total: 113 NHL games, 40 points, 0.35 ppg, -41 rating, and 101 blocked shots
LaCombeSeasonLeagueGamesGAPtsPPG+/-Block ShotsTeam RankD+1NCAA37310130.35-1612ndD+2NCAA27417210.7819333rdD+3NCAA39327300.7723641stD+4NCAA35926351.0012533rdNHL20000.00-19n/aTotal.1401980990.7152220
Using only games played since their draft year, we can identify that Drysdale has played in a much higher league. Based upon those metrics alone of games and league competition should have Drysdale ahead, but that's a disingenuous take.
Drysdale has had only one full NHL season. His first NHL season, he was barely hanging on after the first few games and was overwhelmed. Jamie's second NHL, he lasted the whole season, but he should have been in the AHL still except the Ducks didn't have enough talent to keep him in the AHL. Last year, his third season, Drysdale lost a year of development.
With LaCombe in the NCAA program, they usually play on weekends and the reason why the games played is lower after four years of play. Because games are on weekends for the NCAA, their players are able to physically get stronger during the season. With the CHL and NHL, players get stronger in the off-season because what they're missing in their workout regimen is "rest and recovery". Physically, LaCombe is more mature than Drysdale and the fact LaCombe's a year older. Game-wise, LaCombe is also more mature such that each season he can reflect upon with his team and implement a new game plan for next season. LaCombe's defense and offense has improved year through his NCAA career.
Plus/minus stat along with blocked shots reveals discipline and Hockey IQ of where to expect the shot. LaCombe has 119 more blocked shots credited to his name over Drysdale. Comparing this season, Drysdale has 6 blocked shots in eight games while LaCombe notched 9 blocked shots in only two games. LaCombe has been doing his homework on improving his defense in his four NCAA seasons and it shows in the blocked shots category.
One point I want to wholeheartedly disagree with you was when you proclaimed the following: "Drysdale's skating is far superior." This is where you lose credibility. Everyone watching the games LaCombe skated in came away impressed with LaCombe's skating except you. The gap between Drysdale and LaCombe isn't "far superior".
Here's a quote from the OCR, published in June 2019, LaCombe's draft year:
Also, this...
LaCombe was known for his top end skating going into the 2019 NHL draft. He has had four seasons in the NCAA to continue developing and honing his skating skills. GM Murray took LaCombe earlier than his projections. The reason LaCombe went in the 2nd round was due playing in the high school level before the draft. The level of competition isn't on par with the CHL or USHL. It appears the same dismissive thought continues on.
If Drysdale didn't lose a year of development this year, then we'd all be ecstatic. But he did lose a year and that's what sucks. Drysdale hasn't played hockey since Oct 28, 2022, six months ago. I don't know if he's even cleared to put skates on b/c we've only seen on wearing shoes on the ice when fooling around with Zegras and McTavish on video.
I'd prefer Drysdale not play on the top line with Fowler. In fact, I'd like Drysdale on the third line to get back into the groove and work his way back into hockey shape, speed, and thinking process. Afterward, he can move up the pairing levels. Developing Drysdale properly is important because we only have three years of Fowler left. Remember, sounding like a broken clock here, Drysdale lost a year of development this season.
I think his TOI is 2nd biggest, after Hamilton. And he is defensively very responsible, said by many Devils fans.
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sowcufucakky
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Yes, if their game relies on structure. Montour was the opposite, where his was chaotic, and looked superb in San Diego, but the NHL guys couldn’t ever figure out what he was going to do.
KaseMeOutside
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Overall team toughness has to be addressed. It was absolutely ridiculous that verbeek made no effort to surround his young skill guys with some dudes to protect them, beyond that there's no net front presence on this roster which is also apart of being a tougher team, and that goes for both sides of the rink.
"Everyone" was impressed with Lacombe's skating? That claim is a bit silly unless you've spoken with everyone. And even if everyone was impressed, that doesn't mean he's a better skater than Drysdale.
LaCombe was known for his top end skating going into the 2019 NHL draft according to you, with a quote from Elliot Teaford. Yet he was drafted 39? Drysdale was also known for his top end skating, so much so that, according to Teaford:
"Jamie Drysdale’s skating was what captured the imagination of the Ducks first and foremost. It’s why they selected him sixth overall in the NHL draft last Oct. 6, why they envisioned him in their lineup sooner than later and why they haven’t been surprised by his play after nine games.
Drysdale, who turned 19 on Thursday, took nothing for granted as he made his way through the ranks as a young hockey player in Toronto. He took figure skating lessons starting at age 7. In recent years, he’s enlisted the aid of Dawn Braid, a Ducks skating consultant from 2010-12.
Standing 5-feet-11 and weighing 175 pounds, Drysdale is the smallest of the Ducks’ defensemen. He’s not necessarily a physical player and rarely throws a body check, but he uses his superior skating to position himself well. He’s almost never beaten by a faster skater.
Mostly, that’s so because there aren’t many faster skaters in the NHL.
Or to be more precise, there aren’t many better-positioned skaters in the NHL."
Ducks rookie defenseman Jamie Drysdale skating past expectations
No one has ever said anything close to that about LaCombe.
And for you to compare LaCombe's college stats with Drysdale's in the NHL shows how you're grasping at straws to make what is ultimately a very weak argument. Blocked shots is one metric - not a definitive one. Maybe Drysdale blocks fewer shots because the guy he's guarding doesn't get a chance to shoot? Or because Drysdale has the puck or the ducks have the puck more when Dry is playing? Or maybe comparing a guy who played 8 games at the beginning of the season with a guy who played two garbage time games at the end is an inherently statistically flawed comparison? Blocks is just a very weird thing to latch onto, particularly when the sample size is so small.
It sucks that Drysdale missed a year. But there is no evidence to support the notion that LaCombe is better qualified to play in the top 4 than Drysdale. If you're arguing LaCombe is further in his "development curve" - basically more physically mature - then maybe that's true. But Drysdale today is the better player. That is likely to always be the case. And that's not a slam on LaCombe. There's a reason he was drafted 39th and has never starred on an international team the way Drysdale has.
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Hockey Duckie
Registered User
Wow, you got a lot of logical falseness in your rebuttal.
1. Better skater lie.
You stated that Drysdale is a "far superior skater". I responded with "that gap isn't far superior". Then your rebuttal is, "And even if everyone was impressed, that doesn't mean he's a better skater than Drysdale."
People can follow this thread, you know.
2. "No one has ever said anything close to that about LaCombe." illogicalness.
That article you've cited is AFTER his first season in the NHL, playing 24 games. LaCombe hasn't had a season in the NHL or 24 NHL games . Can't really compare apples to apples here. I was impressed with Drysdale's first half of NHL games that year, but then he faded for the rest of the season.
Drysdale | 2020-21 | | | | | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Game Set | Games | G | A | Pts | | Plus/Minus |
First 11 | 11 | 2 | 3 | 5 | | -2 |
Last 13 | 13 | 1 | 2 | 3 | | -10 |
Maybe we're watching different dimensions of Drysdale's games in the NHL.
But I'll entertain this farce. Here is GM Verbeek on LaCombe on a Dec 1, 2022 NHL.com article:
With [Lacombe], the college game is really easy for him. I mean, he's an excellent skater. He's moving up the ice, but no one can catch him. That's how strong a skater he is.
Here's a quote from coach Eakins, the same Eakins that you referenced about Drysdale's skating, talking about LaCombe before his debut as a Duck:
"He's [LaCombe] an excellent skater. He's got great posture on the ice. His head is always up. He passes the puck extremely hard, doesn't really complicate much. The skating part of it, especially on defense the way you have to play the game, that is certainly going to help him."
3. How is Drysdale a better player?
- Year 1 in NHL: In only 24 NHL games, Drysdale faded in the last 13 games. CF% = 45.7%
- Year 2 in NHL: Owned the worst plus/minus on the team with -26. His d-pair, Lindholm, was a +0 rating. CF% = 50.8%, which is good!
- Year 3 in NHL: Played only 8 games. CF% = 41.0%. That's worse than his first season! Maybe his D-partner, Lindholm, may have helped some last year.
Here's an OCR article on Drysdale's benching after game 60 of the 2021-22 season:
Jamie Drysdale played all 60 games to start the season, but Ducks coach Dallas Eakins knew it was time for the 19-year-old rookie defenseman to take a break from the action. So, Eakins scratched him from the lineup for last Saturday’s game against the New Jersey Devils.
It wasn’t so much that Drysdale looked tired, but his game looked out of sorts, off kilter. He was on the ice for five of the Chicago Blackhawks’ even-strength goals during an 8-3 loss March 8 and for two of the Nashville Predators’ even-strength goals during a 4-1 defeat on March 10.
Drysdale said he understood Eakins’ message.
“Less busy,” Drysdale said, ticking off the adjustments to his play. “Not force things. Be more efficient. Those were the kinds of things I needed to work on and figure out. I think I’ve done a better job these past two games to do that. I feel good out there. There’s a lot of learning, a lot of development.”
What development happened in Year 3? No development happened. Although it's a small sample, that CF% is a drastic regression. I'd rather chalk it up as a lost developmental year. Here's a snippet from the Sporting Tribune of Fowler on Drysdale's injury that cost him a season:
Fowler bemoaned the fact that this season would have been a good opportunity for Drysdale to get more experience under his belt and play a lot of big minutes, but he also acknowledged that injuries—as unfortunate as they can be—are a part of the game.
How many full seasons has Drysdale completed at the NHL level? One season only. Boasting about Drysdale's 113 NHL games doesn't sound all that great when he's only had only one full season in the NHL.
LaCombe's had four complete NCAA seasons. That means LaCombe's had four developmental seasons under his belt since his draft year. In his senior year, his role was to be leader and mentor for the younger players as an alternate captain for the team. You can read about all of his accomplishments at Minnesota here: link.
LaCombe's physical and game maturity can afford the Ducks to take it slower with Drysdale. The ultimate goal is to develop Drysdale's game. Missing a year of hockey set back Drysdale's improvement. I'd start Drysdale on the third pair and work his way up.
You might think I'm trashing on Drysdale, but I'm not. I want the best possible scenario for Drysdale to improve and improve efficiently. With LaCombe getting the tougher assignments and minutes, then Drysdale is eased back into the game and not press. Ultimately, we want Drysdale in our top-4 as soon as possible. Having two more speedsters on defense with Drysdale and LaCombe could mean better play on the ice and, hopefully, more wins for the Ducks.
No reason to force Fantilli or Carlsson. They both can play in men’s leagues (SHL or AHL) where they can still develop.
Top picks that go straight to the NHL are way more likely to be busts or have rough starts to their career, and the Ducks are going to be a bottom 10 team next year. No reason to rush them.
CrazyDuck4u
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Why do you assume ducks will be a bottom team next year? I think with the right coach and some decent free agent signings.. Along with a healthy full year of drysdale, Lacome.. Fowler.. We might make a push..
So Zegras puts up back to back 60+ point seasons, which nobody in his draft did that, and on a shitty Ducks team....no make that historically bad Ducks team, with bad coaching, a poor system, and no depth. Yet he is overrated?
Ducks fans don't even call him the Ducks best player, Terry has been, and yet he is overhyped by our fanbase? Give me a break. lol
Ducks fans don't even call him the Ducks best player, Terry has been, and yet he is overhyped by our fanbase? Give me a break. lol
AngelDuck
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MacKinnon
Matthews
Eichel
All had over 60 points in their D+1 in the NHL and all were about the level Fantili is
Comparing players like Byfield and Kotkaniemi to Fantili seems a bit out of whack
And the thing about it is Byfield wasn’t rushed even. The Kings were patient with him
He just isn’t any good
Jack Hughes another example of a player of that caliber jumping straight to the NHL and handling it fine
Talent wins out
AngelDuck
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Tim Stuezle was “rushed” to the NHL at 18 and is a 90+ point player 3 years later
It's funny you mention those players, because that is the level I think Fantilli and Carlsson are, imho.
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