Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[Bizz]

Crosby's rookie year was the first time the NHL implemented a salary cap. That completely changed the sport as teams had not been preparing their cap sheets for years like they do now. Gave Pittsburgh a more dramatic advantage over others. Not really a representative expectation to have in modern NHL.

This is the only response to my post I have seen that makes sense and is reasonable.

 

[OversKy]

I've been watching people post about giving picks up for mid players for a really long time now and it's just baffling. This team sucks outside of Celebrini and Eklund. Just because you can make a Frankenstein monster hedging playoff team doesn't mean you should if it means selling the future. We just dumped EK65 after a horrible season and the bum put up 100 pts. Sign vets and exposed talent in FA if they come up and stop trying to get good with shortcuts. The next two drafts look pretty loaded to me and if with McKenna and Dupont in them getting 1OA is a crazy upside. Adding guys like Dobson aren't going to change much but put us into prolonged mediocrity. Young players coming together with solid Veterans we should add a year or two out from a cup run sure but we're still at the beginning of the rebuild imo with no playoffs in sight.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I've been watching people post about giving picks up for mid players for a really long time now and it's just baffling. This team sucks outside of Celebrini and Eklund. Just because you can make a Frankenstein monster hedging playoff team doesn't mean you should if it means selling the future...Young players coming together with solid Veterans we should add a year or two out from a cup run sure but we're still at the beginning of the rebuild imo with no playoffs in sight.

Just to be clear, my argument is that the team has its core in place: Celebrini and Askarov. I think/hope, that by next season Celebrini is going to be a top-15 forward in the league, and Askarov is going to be a legitimate starter...and that by 2027, Celebrini will be a top-10 forward and Askarov will be a Vezina threat.

The next two drafts look pretty loaded to me and if with McKenna and Dupont in them getting 1OA is a crazy upside.

...You want the Sharks to be a basement team for two years in a row???

And then, of course, the 2028 and 2029 prospects will be getting hyped up, and maybe the Sharks should still tank to get them...

A challenge, especially with the forward group, is that there is only so much room for youngsters. You must bring in some veterans just for mentorship and stability...do you want Smith to have to carry a rookie Musty and Chernyshov?

 

[Star Platinum]

Just to be clear, my argument is that the team has its core in place: Celebrini and Askarov. I think/hope, that by next season Celebrini is going to be a top-15 forward in the league, and Askarov is going to be a legitimate starter...and that by 2027, Celebrini will be a top-10 forward and Askarov will be a Vezina threat.

...You want the Sharks to be a basement team for two years in a row???

And then, of course, the 2028 and 2029 prospects will be getting hyped up, and maybe the Sharks should still tank to get them...

A challenge, especially with the forward group, is that there is only so much room for youngsters. You must bring in some veterans just for mentorship and stability...do you want Smith to have to carry a rookie Musty and Chernyshov?

Sharks can't keep tanking forever and even if they could, you can't pay to keep a team like that together. Best you could do is pick the guys you want to keep and trade the others when they all get paid. Sharks do need to add veterans, but they need to be smart about how they do it. If you trade away all your youth and your picks to get more vets sooner, you won't have enough talent to compete for a Cup. Got to be selective about which veterans you pursue and most importantly, how many picks and prospects you're giving up to get them. Sharks are way too far away to think one or two high-end veterans in the right spots are going to complete a Cup contending team. They need a lot of quality depth.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Sharks can't keep tanking forever and even if they could, you can't pay to keep a team like that together. Best you could do is pick the guys you want to keep and trade the others when they all get paid. Sharks do need to add veterans, but they need to be smart about how they do it.

Obviously! No one is suggesting the Sharks trade assets for Erik Karlsson. But for Byram, who is 23, or Dobson, who is 25?

If you trade away all your youth and your picks to get more vets sooner, you won't have enough talent to compete for a Cup.

It's interesting because I think we've let the language slide a little bit and it's causing confusion. No one is suggesting that the Sharks fork over futures for veterans...but that they sign some veterans like an Ekblad or a Pionk, and move futures/picks for young defense talent. Admittedly, some mean "young" to mean Nemec and others Dobson...

Let me ask everyone this question: This offseason, the Sharks have the ability to do these three things:

Sign Ekblad to 8x7
Sign Ehlers to 8x7
Acquire Dobson OR Byram for
~ Musty/Chernyshov, Wennberg/Ferraro, the DAL first, and the Sharks's 2025 2nd
OR
Eklund ~1:1

Which of these would you do?

 

[Star Platinum]

Obviously! No one is suggesting the Sharks trade assets for Erik Karlsson. But for Byram, who is 23, or Dobson, who is 25?

It's interesting because I think we've let the language slide a little bit and it's causing confusion. No one is suggesting that the Sharks fork over futures for veterans...but that they sign some veterans like an Ekblad or a Pionk, and move futures/picks for young defense talent. Admittedly, some mean "young" to mean Nemec and others Dobson...

Let me ask everyone this question: This offseason, the Sharks have the ability to do these three things:

Sign Ekblad to 8x7
Sign Ehlers to 8x7
Acquire Dobson OR Byram for
~ Musty/Chernyshov, Wennberg/Ferraro, the DAL first, and the Sharks's 2025 2nd
OR
Eklund ~1:1

Which of these would you do?

If the Sharks can convince any high-end veterans to come as free agents, they should welcome as many as are willing to come. The only pause they should have is if they have to overpay them to the point that they become untradeable down the line.

I'm not interested in discussing trade proposals that are so one-sided in the Sharks' favor that they will never happen.

 

[Celly4Celebrini]

Obviously! No one is suggesting the Sharks trade assets for Erik Karlsson. But for Byram, who is 23, or Dobson, who is 25?

It's interesting because I think we've let the language slide a little bit and it's causing confusion. No one is suggesting that the Sharks fork over futures for veterans...but that they sign some veterans like an Ekblad or a Pionk, and move futures/picks for young defense talent. Admittedly, some mean "young" to mean Nemec and others Dobson...

Let me ask everyone this question: This offseason, the Sharks have the ability to do these three things:

Sign Ekblad to 8x7
Sign Ehlers to 8x7
Acquire Dobson OR Byram for
~ Musty/Chernyshov, Wennberg/Ferraro, the DAL first, and the Sharks's 2025 2nd
OR
Eklund ~1:1

Which of these would you do?

Byram for Musty/Ferraro/+ those picks.

i think an overlooked part of the convo is that dmen take longer than forwards to hit their stride in the league. I think the optimal rebuild fills in those defence slots before forward, but as we have it, we ended up with Smith/Celebrini first before the d.

Obviously exceptions exist for the exceptional (maybe Schaefer), but likely any dman we draft doesnt become an impact player before what, 2029? Thats a long ways away.

Typically goalies also peak later, which is why getting Askarov was a very smart move by MG since he shifted that timeline up 2 years as well.

 

[OversKy]

...You want the Sharks to be a basement team for two years in a row???

I wouldn't say want, I'd say it's an inevitability. Best case if we push hard to fill our roster with decent players we fluke our way in the second year to close to the playoff line and then end up with no assets to move forward with. To me, by the time the Sharks are going to start to really compete Dobson will be close to 30. I wouldn't mind signing one of Ehlers or Ekblad to a big contract like you mentioned for mentorship and experience but not both. Development isn't easily predicted or linear and when you take a look at just how much of our team is developing patience is key. There are big leaps and also stagnation. I'm pretty optimistic for the future but the only good players I think will help us win are Eklund and Zetterlund, two guys. Everyone else is a placeholder or not even 20...

 

[matt trick]

Obviously! No one is suggesting the Sharks trade assets for Erik Karlsson. But for Byram, who is 23, or Dobson, who is 25?

It's interesting because I think we've let the language slide a little bit and it's causing confusion. No one is suggesting that the Sharks fork over futures for veterans...but that they sign some veterans like an Ekblad or a Pionk, and move futures/picks for young defense talent. Admittedly, some mean "young" to mean Nemec and others Dobson...

Let me ask everyone this question: This offseason, the Sharks have the ability to do these three things:

Sign Ekblad to 8x7
Sign Ehlers to 8x7
Acquire Dobson OR Byram for
~ Musty/Chernyshov, Wennberg/Ferraro, the DAL first, and the Sharks's 2025 2nd
OR
Eklund ~1:1

Which of these would you do?

1, 2, 3A for sure, probably would do Eklund (3b), but prefer the non-core guys instead.

To your previous post, I'd say no more than four or five full time developing rookie/sophomores/third years at a time. I think you can pretty much get away with excluding Celebrini from that group starting next year as well.

Next year:
Eklund-Celebrini-Tofolli
Vet-Smith-Zetterlund
Vet-Wennberg-Rookie
Kovalenko-Goody-Delly

Youngest possible (2026-2027):
McKenna-Celebrini-Tofolli
Eklund-Smith-Cherny/Musty/Bystedt
Vet-Misa-Zetts
Kovalenko-Vet-Graf/Cardwell

I'd guess a non-McKenna 18 year old breaking in after the 2026 draft is unlikely, so you could in theory have two of Bystedt/Musty/Cherny, but I doubt all three are in NHL in 2.25 years, let alone with the Sharks. That would be awfully young, but it assumes we draft first or second in each of the next two drafts, and opt for forwards over the very good young D (Schaefer, Verhoeff, Reid) with both picks. That's definitely possible, but I'd say it's in the 5-10% realm.

 

[ThePlanet]

Unhinged trade fun:

Eklund for Nemec and maybe a small plus as a base.

Zetterlund and a moderate plus for Byram.

Rational:

NJ is looking for help with their playoff push. Eklund helps them now, and in the future.

Buffalo has Dahlin and Power of the left, and could definitely use a competitive Swiss army knife.

Flame on, bff superfans.

 

[one2gamble]

I kind of struggle with trading ek

 

[Juxtaposer]

Unhinged trade fun:

Eklund for Nemec and maybe a small plus as a base.

Zetterlund and a moderate plus for Byram.

Rational:

NJ is looking for help with their playoff push. Eklund helps them now, and in the future.

Buffalo has Dahlin and Power of the left, and could definitely use a competitive Swiss army knife.

Flame on, bff superfans.

How does Nemec land more than Byram? Besides that, our offense looks absolutely pathetic without the 'lunds.

 

[ThePlanet]

How does Nemec land more than Byram? Besides that, our offense looks absolutely pathetic without the 'lunds.

I'm looking at it from the point of potential and team need. I view Nemec as someone who has true number one potential, and believe NJ does as well. With that said, I don't think the Devils timeline fits Nemec's development as well as it would with Eklynd. By comparison, Byram looks more like someone who leads the second pairing on a good team. The Sabres can't reasonably keep the three LD they currently have on their roster. If Buffalo views him as a true #1, they would look to deal Power. I don't think that's the case, as he's a year and a half younger, bigger (I know, Hogde argument), has stayed healthy, and has already put up two seasons with better offensive numbers. A year ago, Byram was traded for a 2c in Middlestedt, and while his value has increased a bit, I don't think it's not that much higher. Granted, his previous injuries likely played a role in the cost of acquisition, and while he's been relatively healthy this season and last, his injury history is still a concern. I wholeheartedly believe that Nemec holds more value than Byram.

Could I be off in my valuation? Absolutely. This is simply my evaluation given the circumstances.

 

[Hodge]

If we trade Eklund for Nemec the entire front office should be fired on the spot.

 

[Jargon]

Unless we’re talking surefire #1D I am incredibly reticent in trading Eklund, our only other top line forward and a guy who plays the way you want a guy to play on a winning team.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

Unless we’re talking surefire #1D I am incredibly reticent in trading Eklund, our only other top line forward and a guy who plays the way you want a guy to play on a winning team.

This. The kind of players that we’re looking at are the kind that become available for a 1st+Musty+Ferraro type package (or less) if they become available for various reasons.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I'm looking at it from the point of potential and team need. I view Nemec as someone who has true number one potential, and believe NJ does as well. With that said, I don't think the Devils timeline fits Nemec's development as well as it would with Eklynd. By comparison, Byram looks more like someone who leads the second pairing on a good team. The Sabres can't reasonably keep the three LD they currently have on their roster. If Buffalo views him as a true #1, they would look to deal Power. I don't think that's the case, as he's a year and a half younger, bigger (I know, Hogde argument), has stayed healthy, and has already put up two seasons with better offensive numbers. A year ago, Byram was traded for a 2c in Middlestedt, and while his value has increased a bit, I don't think it's not that much higher. Granted, his previous injuries likely played a role in the cost of acquisition, and while he's been relatively healthy this season and last, his injury history is still a concern. I wholeheartedly believe that Nemec holds more value than Byram.

Could I be off in my valuation? Absolutely. This is simply my evaluation given the circumstances.

Well, if you see Nemec as a future #1D, then that certainly explains your willingness to trade Eklund for him. I think you're one of the few people that do believe that, though.

For Byram, the only reason he would hit the trade market is if he doesn't want to sign long-term with Buffalo. Otherwise, he'd only be available in a Pettersson type of situation, and it sounds like Peterson is staying put.

 

[TheBeard]

I wouldn't say want, I'd say it's an inevitability. Best case if we push hard to fill our roster with decent players we fluke our way in the second year to close to the playoff line and then end up with no assets to move forward with. To me, by the time the Sharks are going to start to really compete Dobson will be close to 30. I wouldn't mind signing one of Ehlers or Ekblad to a big contract like you mentioned for mentorship and experience but not both. Development isn't easily predicted or linear and when you take a look at just how much of our team is developing patience is key. There are big leaps and also stagnation. I'm pretty optimistic for the future but the only good players I think will help us win are Eklund and Zetterlund, two guys. Everyone else is a placeholder or not even 20...

It’s only an inevitability if Grier wants it to be.

I'm looking at it from the point of potential and team need. I view Nemec as someone who has true number one potential, and believe NJ does as well. With that said, I don't think the Devils timeline fits Nemec's development as well as it would with Eklynd. By comparison, Byram looks more like someone who leads the second pairing on a good team. The Sabres can't reasonably keep the three LD they currently have on their roster. If Buffalo views him as a true #1, they would look to deal Power. I don't think that's the case, as he's a year and a half younger, bigger (I know, Hogde argument), has stayed healthy, and has already put up two seasons with better offensive numbers. A year ago, Byram was traded for a 2c in Middlestedt, and while his value has increased a bit, I don't think it's not that much higher. Granted, his previous injuries likely played a role in the cost of acquisition, and while he's been relatively healthy this season and last, his injury history is still a concern. I wholeheartedly believe that Nemec holds more value than Byram.

Could I be off in my valuation? Absolutely. This is simply my evaluation given the circumstances.

The only reason anyone views Nemec as that is because he was drafted 2nd overall. He’s shown very little otherwise.

 

[Hodge]

If we keep Ferraro, trade for Dobson and sign Neal Pionk for 7x7 the defense starts to look like it belongs in the NHL.

Ferraro-Dobson
Walman-Pionk
Mukhamadullin-Liljegren

I feel a lot more comfortable giving Askarov 45+ starts behind that blueline. We can still trade Ferraro and/or Walman a year from now depending on how Mukhamadullin and Dickinson are progressing. This is assuming we don't draft Schaefer.

 

[gaucholoco3]

If we keep Ferraro, trade for Dobson and sign Neal Pionk for 7x7 the defense starts to look like it belongs in the NHL.

Ferraro-Dobson
Walman-Pionk
Mukhamadullin-Liljegren

I feel a lot more comfortable giving Askarov 45+ starts behind that blueline. We can still trade Ferraro and/or Walman a year from now depending on how Mukhamadullin and Dickinson are progressing. This is assuming we don't draft Schaefer.

I agree. I would like them to acquire 2 top 4 RD this offseason. Ekblad, Pionk, Dobson, or Nemec. I include Nemec for his potential. I think he could be a great partner for Schaefer or Dickinson. If trading Ferraro is necessary to aquire one of those RD then I would be happy to include him even if it would cause a year with a LD problem since Dickinson and hopefully Schaefer are coming up in 26-27.

 

[ThePlanet]

I appreciate your response, Jux. I'll see if I can view Nemec through a different lens, if you will, in hope of adding addition insight to my opinion.

At this point I see the two having very similar skating, with maybe a sight edge to Byram, however, I see a higher IQ/situational awareness, as well as the ability to better get pucks to the net with Nemec.

In regards to a Petterson type deal, I had been under the impression that was specifically in regards to Lou's ask for Dobson.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If we keep Ferraro, trade for Dobson and sign Neal Pionk for 7x7 the defense starts to look like it belongs in the NHL.

Ferraro-Dobson
Walman-Pionk
Mukhamadullin-Liljegren

I feel a lot more comfortable giving Askarov 45+ starts behind that blueline. We can still trade Ferraro and/or Walman a year from now depending on how Mukhamadullin and Dickinson are progressing. This is assuming we don't draft Schaefer.

I’m not committed to keeping anyone on the blue line for next year. I’m only moving Ferraro or Walman at the deadline if someone offers a 1st for some reason. If no one does, we can afford to wait until the draft or free agent day to move things around. It’s going to depend on who is available to the team that we can build around. Nobody we have is currently worth doing that for yet. Maybe we get Schaefer and he’s ready next season. Maybe Dickinson is ready. If not, Muk and Cagnoni should be given depth opportunities for next season and try to get the best collection of blue liners around them.

 

[Jargon]

Grier has broken me. Every time I check hockey news I expect a “Sharks getting Byram/Nemec” alert.

 

[Star Platinum]

If we trade Eklund for Nemec the entire front office should be fired on the spot.

It was better at least than the other trade suggestions I've seen on this board lately (I agree it's an overpay). Some folks on this board don't understand that ten pennies do not equal a dime when we're talking about player trades.

 

[Star Platinum]

Unless we’re talking surefire #1D I am incredibly reticent in trading Eklund, our only other top line forward and a guy who plays the way you want a guy to play on a winning team.

Nobody would ever trade a true #1D for Eklund

This. The kind of players that we’re looking at are the kind that become available for a 1st+Musty+Ferraro type package (or less) if they become available for various reasons.

Byram is not available for that package