Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[TheBeard]

It's quite a leap from Norris winner and top 4. I think Cagnoni has the drive and talent to be a top 4 defender in the NHL despite his size.

Torrey Krug is the obvious benchmark.

 

[pappaf2]

Which is all I was saying in the first place. He doesn't have top 4 potential.

People thought the same about Boyle. Undersized and undrafted. Ended up being a top pairing d-man. Not that Luca is for sure going to turn into Boyle but it’s not impossible to imagine him being a top 4 guy.

 

[DarrylshutzSydor]

People thought the same about Boyle. Undersized and undrafted. Ended up being a top pairing d-man. Not that Luca is for sure going to turn into Boyle but it’s not impossible to imagine him being a top 4 guy.

Boyle was an offensive defenseman, but on the Lightning, during their cup run in 2004 he was a bottom pair defenseman

 

[DarrylshutzSydor]

My FA targets:
Defence:
Pionk (for a reasonable term)
Borgen
Kovacevic
Fabbro
Perbix

Forwards:
Bennett (for a reasonable term)
Frederic
Jeannot
Pius Suter

Rutta is better than Perbix
Jeanot can fight, but is very slow

Bennett and Frederic are good choices

 

[Patty Ice]

Boyle was an offensive defenseman, but on the Lightning, during their cup run in 2004 he was a bottom pair defenseman

That is just patently false. He has already established himself as a top defender on the team playing over 22 minutes a game and being a key player in that Cup run.

Edit: Tort's quote

I don’t think [Boyle] ever received enough credit for what a fierce competitor [he was]. I witnessed it first-hand. [He was] the engine of our Stanley Cup team. We don’t get where we go if it isn’t (for) what [he did] at that rover position that [he] had, as far as just doing [his] thing.

 

[DarrylshutzSydor]

That is just patently false. He has already established himself as a top defender on the team playing over 22 minutes a game and being a key player in that Cup run.

Edit: Tort's quote

Sorry, incorrect. He was relegated to third pair.

Kubina Sydor - Top Pair.
Sarich-Cullimore/Pratt
Boyle-Cullimore/Pratt

(Boyle was my favorite, and I loved it when the Sharks got him, but he was getting manhandled by the opposition). I watched every TB game. Go back and watch; they are all on youtube.

 

[Patty Ice]

Sorry, incorrect. He was relegated to third pair.

Kubina Sydor - Top Pair.
Sarich-Cullimore/Pratt
Boyle-Cullimore/Pratt

(Boyle was my favorite, and I loved it when the Sharks got him, but he was getting manhandled by the opposition). I watched every TB game. Go back and watch; they are all on youtube

I guess you should clue in Tortorella then. He seems to think otherwise. Boyle was the PP QB and playing well over 20 minutes a night. That is not a bottom pairing defenseman as you stated.

 

[Barrie22]

Sorry, incorrect. He was relegated to third pair.

Kubina Sydor - Top Pair.
Sarich-Cullimore/Pratt
Boyle-Cullimore/Pratt

(Boyle was my favorite, and I loved it when the Sharks got him, but he was getting manhandled by the opposition). I watched every TB game. Go back and watch; they are all on youtube.

Boyle 3rd in total ice time/game
1st in ev/game
1st in pp/game

Looks like top 2 unit to me.

 

[Anomie2029]

Luca Cagnoni is definitely too small to be top 4.
Just like:
Jared Spurgeon
Lane Hutson
Sam Girard
Troy Stecher
Dimitri Orlov
Shane Gostisbehere
Erik Brannstrom
Adam Fox
Rasmus Sandin
Sean Walker

All are below 6’0 and are too small for the NHL.

 

[mogambomoroo]

Cagnoni probably needs majority of his games in AHL next year, but I feel he is getting closer than we thought he could by this time. He is going to have to beat Mukhamadullin who has size and that solidness that we desperately need, Dickinson who is our best defensive prospect, Walman who has another year and has been good, Ferraro with his leadership (which is overrated) and all the NHL fringe defencemen in Thrun and Vlasic. It's going to be long way, but he needs to really keep his point totals closer to point per game to have a chance.

 

[Hodge]

Luca Cagnoni is definitely too small to be top 4.
Just like:
Jared Spurgeon
Lane Hutson
Sam Girard
Troy Stecher
Dimitri Orlov
Shane Gostisbehere
Erik Brannstrom
Adam Fox
Rasmus Sandin
Sean Walker

All are below 6’0 and are too small for the NHL.

Today I learned Erik Brannstrom, Troy Stecher, Sam Girard, Shayne Gostisbehere and Rasmus Sandin are top 4 defensemen.

Even with those reaches you can only find 10 examples out of ~225 NHL defensemen which says everything. They're also all bigger than Cagnoni.

 

[LadyStanley]

Paywall

 

[coooldude]

Yeah, I feel like we constantly ignore survivorship bias in the size debate.

Of course there are players who are under 6'0" who play defense in the NHL. There are even two exceptional, best in the world ones.

That doesn't mean any decent player under 6' can do it. It's much harder to make it, so the guys who do are truly exceptional for their size. And even then they have their defensive struggles.

Luca might be able to, but he will have to be exceptional and even then we're probably not looking at a top pairing guy, but an inconsistent middle pairing guy like the majority of that list. I'm rooting for him but I'm not counting on it.

 

[matt trick]

Today I learned Erik Brannstrom, Troy Stecher, Sam Girard, Shayne Gostisbehere and Rasmus Sandin are top 4 defensemen.

Even with those reaches you can only find 10 examples out of ~225 NHL defensemen which says everything. They're also all bigger than Cagnoni.

I’d be over the moon if he could become Ghostisbhere (who’s 2 inches taller). However, to your point is that a guy you win a cup with? Probably not, though our aspirations aren’t that high for at least the next 3-5 years.

Maybe 1/20 of these guys who preform at the AHL level (1/100 in the CHL) end up becoming a Krug/Girard type top 4 Dman. Emil Andre and Seamus Casey are two other 5’10 and under defenders I’m intrigued by, but realistically if 1/3 end up a top 4 dman, I’d be really impressed. I could see Cagnoni replacing Liljigren after the deadline next year, and if we’re really lucky carving out a career as a third pairing dman and PP specialist. However, drafting someone like Schaefer probably ends that conversation (or at least ends it by the time Cagnoni is up for his next contract).

He’s a fun dude to watch, and I think he’s got a shot to become an NHL regular, who plays 300-500 games (making $8-12M in career earnings) mostly in a third pairing role for teams who lack a PPQB. I just don’t know that it’ll be on a cup contender or even playoff team. He is stout at 180 pounds and could maybe get to 185-190 without a loss of speed. Have him follow Zetts around this offseason. I like the type of risk in late rounds, and if he can become that 1/100 like Krug, Girard, or Spurgeon it would be a game changer. I hope for the sharks and Cagnoni he’s the one.

If he were 5’11 and similarly built I’d like his chances quite a bit better. 5’9 is sooo small for an NHL dman. If he can play right side equally effectively maybe his chances go up a bit.

 

[gaucholoco3]

Being so small and needing to use his skating to cut angles anyway makes playing his off side much less of a foreign position for Luca. Especially with the size of BDE and Muk he could maybe carve out a 3rd pairing PP2 (PP1 is for Schaefer) role on the right side.

 

[Forlan]

Who can really compare Cagnoni to is Hutson. Similar anthropometry, but a very big difference in skating, mobility, and puck control. He must have a set of the same strong qualities with his height to be in the top 4 NHL teams

 

[Hangemhigh]

Who can really compare Cagnoni to is Hutson. Similar anthropometry, but a very big difference in skating, mobility, and puck control. He must have a set of the same strong qualities with his height to be in the top 4 NHL teams

anthropometry​

[ an-thruh-pom-i-tree ]
Phonetic (Standard)IPA

noun​

the measurement of the size and proportions of the human body

I love new words.

 

[gritdash60]

He should be traded. He's 32 and a pending UFA. Sharks may need to take a cap dump but that could mean a first rounder and a prospect. He appears to be the top available center for the trade deadline.

Colorado, Dallas, Minnesota, NYR seem the most likely, but injuries could add more teams to the list.

Sharks need to take a cap dump for a player who has 31 points in 34 games?

Edit: Oh yes a cap dump not retention, englando is hard.

 

[gritdash60]

He’s looked quite… bleh over the last month or so. I’d keep him around if the trade market isn’t lucrative enough but I don’t know if I would go more than 2 years.

You would think a dude with 34points in 37games on Sharks would get some kind of return. What you think is "lucrative" is up to you really.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I'm not advocating for Marleau being anything other than a highly versatile passenger.

However, first you said that Smith having a Marleau career would be massively disappointing, and now you're saying that you're expecting it. Which is it?

My apologies for the late reply on this as I was on vacation but I don't know what one is saying when they use a descriptor like highly versatile passenger. My reading of that is that it looks self-contradictory. Versatile players aren't passengers because they find ways to contribute that don't tend to rely on others. Marleau was a great all-around player with consistency issues but he wasn't a passenger. Certain players would make him play better but he helped them too that includes Thornton. When it comes to Smith, if he ends up as a Marleau level producer, it's a huge win for a 4th pick and for a player of Smith's profile at this point. Smith isn't the athlete that Marleau was. Marleau was not prime Marleau in his rookie year but he was pretty clearly an NHL level talent in his rookie year. Smith has only showed a couple flashes of that. I don't think any of that matters though because Smith is not Marleau and his path forward is his own. Even if he isn't an NHL caliber talent right now, he stands to benefit from playing anywhere and everywhere in the NHL lineup while we're competing for last in the league. A guy like Smith, like Marleau, needs to learn how to play with players all over the lineup. This only helps his development regardless of where one sees him currently and we're not going to have a better option if we discuss Smith going to the AHL. Smith going to the AHL is more unnecessary reliance on mediocre veterans to fill space rather than work towards developing the future. They need to do more things like keeping Smith in the NHL even if he's not an NHL caliber player overall because he very likely grows into one. There are other players in this org that can fill spots while having room to grow and the team should lean into that more.

alot of this discussion boils down to

1. a lack of experience as a SJ with having a top level rookie come in at 19 without guys like Thornton/Patty to "protect" against top level competition. I think Hertls the only 19 year old i can remember in the last 15 years besides Smith/Celebrini

2. Celebrini setting unrealistic comparisons standards

3. A genuine hatred of Barclay Goodrow despite by most accounts him being beloved in the locker room.

Nobody should really care how Smith performs this season and who he plays with. What's important is getting the experience and learning. I just wish they did more of that with more younger players.

As far as Celebrini goes, the sooner they just make him captain and let him run with anything and everything, the better it is for everyone. Yes, this is largely symbolic but it's often helpful for the team to establish their identity and the captaincy is part of that.

When it comes to Goodrow, he's plenty fine in the locker room and that's fine. If that meant he stayed on the 4th line and contributed on the PK like he has then it'd be fine but that's not what is happening. He's consistenly in the top nine when he's not effective in that role and not helping the guys he's playing with a lot of whom we're trying to develop to play the right way. Goodrow doesn't do that. If he becomes a staple on the 4th line for the remainder of his contract, it's fine even if it's overpaid. Anything beyond that and he becomes a detriment to the team.

 

[TheBeard]

You would think a dude with 34points in 37games on Sharks would get some kind of return. What you think is "lucrative" is up to you really.

You would think that but others have watched him play and others remember his cap hit, his past history and his age.

A second and a prospect is the minimum I would take.

 

[gaucholoco3]

As far as Celebrini goes, the sooner they just make him captain and let him run with anything and everything, the better it is for everyone. Yes, this is largely symbolic but it's often helpful for the team to establish their identity and the captaincy is part of that.

I completely agree. As long as Couture pretends he can play again they won’t strip him, but I think they can acknowledge that he is done in the offseason and name Celebrini captain. That would also make him the youngest captain ever which is cool.

 

[ChompChomp]

Someone's going to start this discussion, might as well be me:

Jesse Puljujarvi is on waivers. Any interest? The chatter I hear from Pens fans is that he's good, but Sullivan is mis-using him. And somehow Sullivan is more infatuated with Matt Nieto than Jesse.

$800k cap hit this year, UFA at season's end.

 

[one2gamble]

Someone's going to start this discussion, might as well be me:

Jesse Puljujarvi is on waivers. Any interest? The chatter I hear from Pens fans is that he's good,

I mean hes definitely not good

 

[Cas]

Someone's going to start this discussion, might as well be me:

Jesse Puljujarvi is on waivers. Any interest? The chatter I hear from Pens fans is that he's good, but Sullivan is mis-using him. And somehow Sullivan is more infatuated with Matt Nieto than Jesse.

$800k cap hit this year, UFA at season's end.

He's 26 years old winger with minimal offensive upside and was just waived by a bubble team. I do not think he's actually any good, and we have plenty of wingers I'd rather give a shot to than someone who does not have an actual NHL future.