Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[67 others]

It sucks that the Goodrow-Sturm-Kunin is probably the best 4th line that we've ever iced as an organization and would have probably won a Cup had we had that caliber 4th line during the Thornton/Marleau prime years.

Like compare that to running Zubrus-Spaling-Wingels in 2016 or Haley-Goodrow-Melker in 2019 against the rough and tumble Blues.

That said, I'd go slightly different on the lineup:
Eklund-Celebrini-Toffoli
Granlund-Smith-Zetterlund
Kostin-Wennberg-Dellandrea
Goodrow-Sturm-Kunin

Could see Granlund float a bit as a spare center with Celebrini and Smith throughout the season (or until Couture is back). The comments on trying to have a couple of centers to take some burden off the young guys on some faceoffs and defensive assignments makes me think Granlund will almost exclusively be on the wing until Couture is back.

My favorite 4th line was Clowe/Goc/Rissmiller

That line could kill time and cycle for days

Our problem then was that our top defenseman and pp quarterback was Craig Rivet lol

 

[coooldude]

I just don't know how hungry teams will be for a decent 4th line center at the deadline

Probably hungry but not that hungry. Depth additions are definitely wanted, but the price isn't super high. Here's a very clear comp. Seems like Sturm brought FO% and was expiring contract while Jost had one more year.

Jost traded to Wild by Avalanche | NHL.com

Colorado receives Sturm in swap of forwards

www.nhl.com

Since the swap, Jost has scored 37 points in 153 games, 10-13min TOI, with poor FO% (highest 47%, lowest 38%), Sturm has scored 42 in 158, 12-14min TOI, with excellent FO% (highest 60.1%, lowest 54.6%). as a DZ FO specialist alone, he does have value.

 

[weastern bias]

This user has a marvellous YouTube channel with a very good editing, storytelling and topics that are interesting involving NHL and hockey.
Here is his latest one, I would call it a masterpiece on an important topic.

They put out a video a month ago on the 1994 Sharks season that is a much watch for anyone who loves these long form nerd sports deep dive videos, maybe the best Sharks video to hit YouTube since the "Legacy of Failure" dropped

 

[Star Platinum]

You gotta remember that being a mentor does not look at how talented you are as a player. There is a lot of NHL coaches or GM's that weren't the best players when they played. It's different type of skill, there is a lot of high level players that can't teach or show other players the way.
Depth player that's a mentor is like your first guitar teacher that shows you the simple things and how to grind through them to get to the next level. It's only first step towards NHL career, but for most of the prospects could be the most critical one.

Leadership from a coach versus leadership from a player is not the same thing at all, which is why a lot of good coaches are players who thought the game well, but didn't even have the physical tools to play at the top level at all. A lot of coaches in various sports have been career minor leaguers or barely on the roster type of players. The NHL is actually a little more unusual in that you see more higher impact players becoming coaches in that league than you do in baseball or football.

As for GM, I find that to be the most random of the positions across sports. Some guys get the job purely off name recognition while some pay their dues as scouts and prove that they are good talent evaluators. But generally you don't need or sometimes even want leadership for your players from the GM. The guy you want as a GM is a guy who evaluates talent well, understands how to work within the financial constraints of his league (if any), and is a shark when it comes to making roster decisions. Worst thing you can have as a GM is a guy who lets sentimentality come into play when a player needs to be cut or traded and the GM can't make the move because he's got some emotional connection to that player.

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

Forwards, yes. Defense, not so much.

As it sits now yes but who knows maybe Muk and Dickinson make the team all of a sudden it doesn’t look as atrocious Full marks to Grier he’s giving Warf an opportunity to succeed

 

[Cas]

I just don't know how hungry teams will be for a decent 4th line center at the deadline

He's a depth C who would probably only be expected to play for half of the playoffs (essentially a #12/13 forward). Maybe a 5th.

Sturm isn't actually very good. He can win faceoffs, but he doesn't really have any positive skills otherwise - he won't embarrass you defensively, and on rare occasions can score a goal, but he's not a guy you want starting, to be honest.

 

[timorous me]

And when you look at our rebuilding team, we have a surprisingly high amount of veterans with experience at various levels that would assist in covering the good habits mentoring that you're talking about. Toffoli, Sturm, and Rutta have championship experience. Guys like Grundstrom, Wennberg, Granlund, and Zetterlund are all forwards with plenty of NHL experience to contribute to good habits. Goodrow doesn't bring anything that we don't still have outside of him. I just think ignoring his poor on-ice play because of his previous experience (ignoring that he's not playing at that level anymore) is a bad move.

We should be looking to keep guys like Goodrow, Kunin, and Givani Smith off the ice because they're not effective hockey players. I still want our bottom six to be a competitive group which means winning their even strength shifts as their top priority. All those players have been showing that they aren't good at that. Goodrow especially has a long history of bad even strength play.

One thing worth noting here is that about half of the guys you mentioned here were acquired after Goodrow was picked up on waivers: Grundstrom, Wennberg, and Toffoli.

It's possible Grier wouldn't have grabbed Goodrow if the other transactions had happened first, but when you consider the order of events it makes more sense.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Who are these 6 top 6 players that don’t include one of Smith or Granlund? Celebrini, Zetterlund, Toffoli, Eklund, …….

Unless you are counting Couture I don’t see how anyone else is playing in the top 6. I’m sorry but Kostin should barely make the Roster and has no business near the top 6. Wennberg could be the 2C but that just makes no sense with Granlund and Celebrini above him. Maybe Wennberg could play top 6 wing but I doubt that’s what they brought him in for.

If Smith or Granlund are in the bottom 6 then I hate to break it to you but unless it’s Couture the most liked player to jump up into the top 6 is Kunin.

So we call up a prospect who isn’t ready and gets outplayed to fill an injury. Sure if any of those players mentioned play their way onto the Sharks so be it but even pt/g AHL players don’t usually amount to much in the NHL.

I do think it is a positive and important to build a competitive AHL team. They don’t need to win the Calder Cup but they were getting blown out as often as the Sharks were last year.

Also if it is a Developmental team then why pull up players who still need development. Let them stay and a player like Goodrow can be scratched and there is no concern about ruining his development.

If you can find a prospect clearly better than 11 players then you must be seeing something I’m not. Also at worst I would put Goodrow at 13 with G Smith behind him so it would have to be 2 prospects better than 10 forwards to cause Goodrow to be blocking a prospect. Also if that happens then just waive him and it’s not a big deal.

The way I see it is that the Lund line will likely be a top six line and the other one will be Celebrini-Toffoli and whoever wins that spot next to them. There are numerous options for that spot. That means Smith, if they insist on him centering his own line and being insulated, should be the 3rd line center.

What's the difference between playing an ineffective hockey player and playing a developing forward who isn't ready? Just because they aren't ready doesn't mean they don't stand to benefit tremendously from the opportunity. Lots of hockey players don't get their spot on the first few chances.

I believe it's a positive to build a competitive AHL team but it's not required nor really an indicator of player developmental success for the purposes of becoming more of an NHL quality player. As seen with someone like William Eklund, significant player development can still be had in awful team situations where you're losing a lot by a lot. You still pull developing players up in short term opportunities to show them firsthand what needs to be worked on if they're going to fail. Players learn plenty from failure.

In terms of hockey effectiveness, I don't think any of Givani Smith, Luke Kunin, or Barclay Goodrow are one of our best 14 forwards. However, at least the latter two will likely be in the lineup when the season comes. That's how hockey rosters go sometimes. I don't think a prospect needs to be clearly better than 11 players to warrant a roster spot over ineffective veterans on a rebuilding club. I agree that having Goodrow and/or Kunin are big deals but they're negatives and we can cut ties with them at any point and would never know the difference and probably be a better team. Same as it was for someone like Hoffman and Labanc.

One thing worth noting here is that about half of the guys you mentioned here were acquired after Goodrow was picked up on waivers: Grundstrom, Wennberg, and Toffoli.

It's possible Grier wouldn't have grabbed Goodrow if the other transactions had happened first, but when you consider the order of events it makes more sense.

I was told numerous times that we had to take what we could get as a reason to claim Goodrow off waivers because nobody wanted to play here. That part of the conversation with Goodrow as a reason to do so was a complete fabrication. Those signings and trades after the fact proved that.

 

[LadyStanley]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1811853236233732313

 

[gaucholoco3]

The way I see it is that the Lund line will likely be a top six line and the other one will be Celebrini-Toffoli and whoever wins that spot next to them. There are numerous options for that spot. That means Smith, if they insist on him centering his own line and being insulated, should be the 3rd line center.

What's the difference between playing an ineffective hockey player and playing a developing forward who isn't ready? Just because they aren't ready doesn't mean they don't stand to benefit tremendously from the opportunity. Lots of hockey players don't get their spot on the first few chances.

I believe it's a positive to build a competitive AHL team but it's not required nor really an indicator of player developmental success for the purposes of becoming more of an NHL quality player. As seen with someone like William Eklund, significant player development can still be had in awful team situations where you're losing a lot by a lot. You still pull developing players up in short term opportunities to show them firsthand what needs to be worked on if they're going to fail. Players learn plenty from failure.

In terms of hockey effectiveness, I don't think any of Givani Smith, Luke Kunin, or Barclay Goodrow are one of our best 14 forwards. However, at least the latter two will likely be in the lineup when the season comes. That's how hockey rosters go sometimes. I don't think a prospect needs to be clearly better than 11 players to warrant a roster spot over ineffective veterans on a rebuilding club. I agree that having Goodrow and/or Kunin are big deals but they're negatives and we can cut ties with them at any point and would never know the difference and probably be a better team. Same as it was for someone like Hoffman and Labanc.


I was told numerous times that we had to take what we could get as a reason to claim Goodrow off waivers because nobody wanted to play here. That part of the conversation with Goodrow as a reason to do so was a complete fabrication. Those signings and trades after the fact proved that.

when talking about blocking prospects I was unclear. I meant that the prospect needs to be in the top 12 to be moved up to the Sharks. I just don’t see any forwards that are even able to be the 12th forward.

My big issue with the Lund line is that it puts the development of Smith in the backseat unless he wins that wing spot next to Celebrini and Toffoli. Smith should be playing with skilled players and getting PP1 time. If he is on a line with Wennberg and Kostin/Dellandrea/Kunin I don’t think that is best for his development which should be the only focus this season.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

when talking about blocking prospects I was unclear. I meant that the prospect needs to be in the top 12 to be moved up to the Sharks. I just don’t see any forwards that are even able to be the 12th forward.

My big issue with the Lund line is that it puts the development of Smith in the backseat unless he wins that wing spot next to Celebrini and Toffoli. Smith should be playing with skilled players and getting PP1 time. If he is on a line with Wennberg and Kostin/Dellandrea/Kunin I don’t think that is best for his development which should be the only focus this season.

Fair enough about the top 12 but even a few of the kids slated to be on the Barracuda are guys I'd prefer giving NHL opportunities because there's room to grow there that isn't there with Goodrow. If we're talking about insulating Celebrini, they're almost certainly going to be insulating Smith as part of it. I don't see him playing on a 3rd line as being in the backseat for development. He can center his own line in sheltered minutes, get skilled enough players, and get PP1 time.

Eklund-Granlund-Zetterlund
Wennberg-Celebrini-Toffoli
Kostin-Smith-Grundstrom
Bystedt-Sturm-Dellandrea

The PP1 setup can be Eklund-Celebrini-Toffoli with Walman and Smith on the points. There's nothing wrong with Smith being on a 3rd line with linemates that are skilled for that level for his development. He's a rookie new to the NHL above the 4th line. He'll still get 13-15 minutes a night in a role like that while also likely being one of the guys that gets extra shifts when they're down late in games which should be often. Any non-4th line role is a good way for Smith to break in the NHL and develop.

 

[Juxtaposer]

If Couture can’t go, I’d like to start off with Lund line, Celebrini-Toffoli pair, Smith-Wennberg pair. Wouldn’t hate moving Eklund to play with Celebrini and Toffoli as the season goes on.

 

[gaucholoco3]

Fair enough about the top 12 but even a few of the kids slated to be on the Barracuda are guys I'd prefer giving NHL opportunities because there's room to grow there that isn't there with Goodrow. If we're talking about insulating Celebrini, they're almost certainly going to be insulating Smith as part of it. I don't see him playing on a 3rd line as being in the backseat for development. He can center his own line in sheltered minutes, get skilled enough players, and get PP1 time.

Eklund-Granlund-Zetterlund
Wennberg-Celebrini-Toffoli
Kostin-Smith-Grundstrom
Bystedt-Sturm-Dellandrea

The PP1 setup can be Eklund-Celebrini-Toffoli with Walman and Smith on the points. There's nothing wrong with Smith being on a 3rd line with linemates that are skilled for that level for his development. He's a rookie new to the NHL above the 4th line. He'll still get 13-15 minutes a night in a role like that while also likely being one of the guys that gets extra shifts when they're down late in games which should be often. Any non-4th line role is a good way for Smith to break in the NHL and develop.

My concern with Smith having Kostin and Grunstrom on his wings would be they will be his least skilled linemates he will have had in at least 3 years. I think it is more important for Smith to have skilled linemates than even Celebrini since he is more of a playmaker than a play driver. Couture being back would help a lot I just think it would be better for his development to play with higher skilled players even if it would result in tougher competition.

Bystedt should be in the AHL above being a 4th line wing. The goal is to develop him as a strong 3C and even with a potential to be a 2C. That won’t happen if he is playing 8 minutes a night as the 11th FW.

 

[ChompChomp]

They put out a video a month ago on the 1994 Sharks season that is a much watch for anyone who loves these long form nerd sports deep dive videos, maybe the best Sharks video to hit YouTube since the "Legacy of Failure" dropped

Really enjoying this video, but man do I hate how this guy pronounces "Irbe."

 

[Cas]

I would honestly be shocked to ever see Couture play again.

 

[weastern bias]

Really enjoying this video, but man do I hate how this guy pronounces "Irbe."

That definitely threw me for a loop, lol

It's like the time a Lewis and Clark documentary at the tech museum narrated by Jeff Bridges and the whole time he kept pronouncing "Sacagawea" as "Suh-cog-uh-way-uh", it was like The Dude never came all the way back from one of his acid flashbacks

 

[Pinkfloyd]

My concern with Smith having Kostin and Grunstrom on his wings would be they will be his least skilled linemates he will have had in at least 3 years. I think it is more important for Smith to have skilled linemates than even Celebrini since he is more of a playmaker than a play driver. Couture being back would help a lot I just think it would be better for his development to play with higher skilled players even if it would result in tougher competition.

Bystedt should be in the AHL above being a 4th line wing. The goal is to develop him as a strong 3C and even with a potential to be a 2C. That won’t happen if he is playing 8 minutes a night as the 11th FW.

I get that concern but it's temporary regardless. Hertl spent a year or two developing at center on the 3rd line too without much in way of skilled wingers. The way our team is setup, it wouldn't surprise me to have Celebrini and Smith at 2 and 3C until the trade deadline where they may end up renting Granlund out for a draft pick and then move those two up in the lineup to finish the season. Considering this is their rookie campaigns, they will get valuable experience in both of those situations.

As for Bystedt, a good way to develop him into a strong 3C is to get him some NHL minutes in similar situations. Playing him as a 4th liner with Sturm is likely to get them minutes in the 12-15 minute range with PK shifts. He wouldn't be playing 8 minutes a night as the 11th forward. Our 11th forward got around 11-12 minutes a night here. A 4th liner with a prospect on it is fine if they can fill a role like on the PK.

Ideally, post-trade deadline, I'd like to see the lines end up like:

Eklund-Celebrini-Toffoli
Wennberg-Smith-Zetterlund
Kostin-Bystedt-Dellandrea
Grundstrom-Goodrow-other Smith

I expect Sturm to get rented and hopefully someone takes Kunin off our hands as well.

 

[Hodge]

I trust Warsofsky to figure out the optimal line combos. We also have quite a few 30+ year old forwards who probably won’t stay healthy for the entire season.

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

Fair enough about the top 12 but even a few of the kids slated to be on the Barracuda are guys I'd prefer giving NHL opportunities because there's room to grow there that isn't there with Goodrow. If we're talking about insulating Celebrini, they're almost certainly going to be insulating Smith as part of it. I don't see him playing on a 3rd line as being in the backseat for development. He can center his own line in sheltered minutes, get skilled enough players, and get PP1 time.

Eklund-Granlund-Zetterlund
Wennberg-Celebrini-Toffoli
Kostin-Smith-Grundstrom
Bystedt-Sturm-Dellandrea

The PP1 setup can be Eklund-Celebrini-Toffoli with Walman and Smith on the points. There's nothing wrong with Smith being on a 3rd line with linemates that are skilled for that level for his development. He's a rookie new to the NHL above the 4th line. He'll still get 13-15 minutes a night in a role like that while also likely being one of the guys that gets extra shifts when they're down late in games which should be often. Any non-4th line role is a good way for Smith to break in the NHL and develop.

I think zetterlund with smith and probably Kunin makes me more sense as a 3rd line, 2 safety valves essentially with skill from zetts and puck retrieval and defensive coverage by kunin

 

[barriers]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1811853236233732313

Mitchell Russell seems like a bit of an outlier here. Perhaps I should just be paying more attention to him though?

 

[Hodge]

Mitchell Russell seems like a bit of an outlier here. Perhaps I should just be paying more attention to him though?

Russell isn't even a lock to make the Barracuda. He's far and away the worst prospect we have signed to an ELC. Baffling inclusion.

 

[SjMilhouse]

If Couture can’t go, I’d like to start off with Lund line, Celebrini-Toffoli pair, Smith-Wennberg pair. Wouldn’t hate moving Eklund to play with Celebrini and Toffoli as the season goes on.

This is more or less how I see it shaking out.

Granlund + Eklund
Celebrini + Tofolli
Smith + Wennberg

Fill out the rest from there. I think Toffoli was acquired with the intent to pair him with Celebrini...same with Wennberg for Smith. Obviously it will not end up that way over the course of a season, but I feel pretty confident that will be the pairs going into the start of the year

 

[ChompChomp]

Mitchell Russell seems like a bit of an outlier here. Perhaps I should just be paying more attention to him though?

I think it's a wait and see how well he does in the AHL. I'm not expecting much, but hopefully he surprises me. This author mentions his last year in the OHL, but I don't put any stock into a 21 year old overager season. This author shouldn't have either.

 

[OversKy]

Givani Smith's value is that he can end Leo Carlsson's career if Radko Gudas ever so much as makes eye contact with Mack.

He can't he's awful at being an enforcer. I've never seen him win a fight.

 

[mogambomoroo]

Just realized once again that Celebrini is really in teal.
I was just watching some Sharks roster stuff in Elite Prospects, then just saw his name and it brought kind of a warm feeling. The same feeling I got back when Sharks were a playoff team. But still a little better because this is likely a franchise changing player that just turned 18. There is so many years ahead to watch this player grow and see how far he can take it.