Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[Juxtaposer]

I hate to break it to you, we're not winning on Celebrini's ELC, there is literally no path to a championship in the next 3 years with the assets in this organization, that's why extending him long term on July 1st 2026 at a reasonable cap hit is so important

We don't need the D man to be Cale Makar, few are, he's a generational talent, but we do need a legit #1D man to win and those players are almost always acquired through the draft by winning teams

Ekblad
Pietrangelo (THE notable exception)
Makar
Hedman x2
Pietrangelo (drafted this time, lol)
Carlson
Letang x2
Keith

Of the last 10 championship teams only a couple had questionable #1D men and only one of them didn't have their #1D acquired in the draft and I continue to stress that Vegas in not a replicatable team building model

I would argue that Noah Dobson is as good as John Carlson and Kris Letang on their respective championship teams.

 

[weastern bias]

I would argue that Noah Dobson is as good as John Carlson and Kris Letang on their respective championship teams.

I can't disagree, but that's why I'm skeptical he'll actually be available, I think it's way more likely NYI pays him and keeps him than that he gets traded, you just don't come across that caliber of player very often

 

[Hodge]

I hate to break it to you, we're not winning on Celebrini's ELC, there is literally no path to a championship in the next 3 years with the assets in this organization, that's why extending him long term on July 1st 2026 at a reasonable cap hit is so important

Not with that attitude we're not.

We have the best prospect pool in the league and unlimited cap space for the next 3 years. Grier should be doing everything possible to get us into the playoffs by 2026-27 and once you're in, anything can happen.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

You guys are so pessimistic

The 92-93 Sharks literally set the record for most losses in a season with a 17 game losing streak along the way. Then they made the playoffs the next season and even beat Yzerman’s Red Wings in round 1.

They pulled off a similar turnaround from 96-97 to 97-98. And for those saying that’s ancient history, the leafs just did this after drafting 1OA for Matthews.

I’ve pointed this out a few times this summer and still haven’t heard a reasonable response for why the Sharks can’t do it again.

Note: I’m not saying it’s a guarantee they’ll make the playoffs (not by a long shot) but the prevailing wisdom on here seems to be that it’s a foregone conclusion that they will not make the playoffs this year or next year, and I genuinely don’t get why we all go along with this.

The 26 team dynamic of the NHL in the 90's during those years referenced is a lot different than what the 32 team dynamic of the NHL is now. In those years, you didn't need as much as you do now to be playoff competitive. The Maple Leafs reference I think is a relevant one but our blue line will pale in comparison to that blue line. Gardiner was still able to produce. Zaitsev did that year as well. Rielly could eat minutes. We have guys that can eat minutes but none of them have produced 30 points in a season in the last five years. The other thing is that Freddie Andersen was a legitimately dependable starting goalie. Blackwood has been admirable in his starts here but he's not that caliber of goalie and it's unlikely that Askarov will be that this year on this team. I don't know about 2025-'26 but them making the playoffs this year is probably correctly a foregone conclusion that it won't happen. There's nothing wrong with that. They will be better this season than last season and that's perfectly fine. The team still has a lot of work to do to become competitive.

 

[weastern bias]

Not with that attitude we're not.

We have the best prospect pool in the league and unlimited cap space for the next 3 years. Grier should be doing everything possible to get us into the playoffs by 2026-27 and once you're in, anything can happen.

Championships are not won by attitude, they are won by aptitude

This organization does not have the talent, depth or infrastructure to craft a winner in the short term, and Grier has repeatedly stated that is not his intention, he has been clear that this rebuild will be slow and methodical

 

[STL Shark]

The 1st overall pick is far from a guarantee of an elite player. Slafkovsky, Power, Lafreniere, Hischier, Ekblad, Yakupov, RNH...that's like half the guys drafted 1st overall in the past decade or so and they would all have been worth trading for a 25-year-old #1 defenseman.

Off that list, literally only Yakupov is a no brainer. Could probably say Laf is next, but the others have all been better or are trending toward being better vallue than an Offenseman that is going to get paid $9M a year from the day he's acquired.

You can take that same pick and turn it into a Reinbacher/Jiricek (top pairing potential even if not likely #1's that I think are overrated in roster construction), Martone/Schaefer/Misa/etc. and also probably either a top 10 protected 1st in 2026 (in case of MTL) or Marchenko/Chinakhov from CBJ.

Think the grabbing a Reinbacher/Jiricek with lower cap hit, adding a top end prospect via the draft, and adding either another one in 2026/27 or having another solid Zetterlund or slightly better forward is a way better idea than giving up 1 for 1 on a $9M offenseman (albeit a tall one).

 

[sampler]

Barabanov just gave an interview. Here is the most telling quote:

"I suffered from injuries, and the team played primitive hockey," Barabanov told RG.org. "You run around without the puck and don't understand why you need all this. We didn't even try to keep the puck… It was the most simple hockey that kills the player in you.”

Echoes Sturm pretty well. "primitive hockey" "running around" "Dont even try to keep the puck" . Sturm talks about "everyone confused" "no system"...

Gee, sounds alot like a coaching issue as much as a talent one. I mean, both of those guys are straight up throwing quinn under the bus...

This is a big reason why I think the sharks were much worse last year than their roster would dictate, and may be much better this year than expected. Coaches matter particularly in such a team sport. Systems matter. Teamwork matters, and its doubly so in a sport at the speed of hockey. If players have no chemistry, dont know where each other is supposed to be, and have no system, then they get slaughtered.

The more I hear about the ineptitude of the coaching last year, the most excited I get for this year.

 

[Gecklund]

Barabanov just gave an interview. Here is the most telling quote:

"I suffered from injuries, and the team played primitive hockey," Barabanov told RG.org. "You run around without the puck and don't understand why you need all this. We didn't even try to keep the puck… It was the most simple hockey that kills the player in you.”

Echoes Sturm pretty well. "primitive hockey" "running around" "Dont even try to keep the puck" . Sturm talks about "everyone confused" "no system"...

Gee, sounds alot like a coaching issue as much as a talent one. I mean, both of those guys are straight up throwing quinn under the bus...

This is a big reason why I think the sharks were much worse last year than their roster would dictate, and may be much better this year than expected. Coaches matter particularly in such a team sport. Systems matter. Teamwork matters, and its doubly so in a sport at the speed of hockey. If players have no chemistry, dont know where each other is supposed to be, and have no system, then they get slaughtered.

The more I hear about the ineptitude of the coaching last year, the most excited I get for this year.

It might have been Sturm that mentioned this but I don’t think it’s all on Quinn. I think a part of it is the talent. Quinn has to dumb down the system to fit the talent that they had. You can’t play some overly complicated system when 75% of your team would clear waivers.

 

[sharks_dynasty]

It might have been Sturm that mentioned this but I don’t think it’s all on Quinn. I think a part of it is the talent. Quinn has to dumb down the system to fit the talent that they had. You can’t play some overly complicated system when 75% of your team would clear waivers.

Well, thank goodness we have some high IQ college players coming onto the roster next year then!

 

[TheBeard]

Barabanov just gave an interview. Here is the most telling quote:

"I suffered from injuries, and the team played primitive hockey," Barabanov told RG.org. "You run around without the puck and don't understand why you need all this. We didn't even try to keep the puck… It was the most simple hockey that kills the player in you.”

Echoes Sturm pretty well. "primitive hockey" "running around" "Dont even try to keep the puck" . Sturm talks about "everyone confused" "no system"...

Gee, sounds alot like a coaching issue as much as a talent one. I mean, both of those guys are straight up throwing quinn under the bus...

This is a big reason why I think the sharks were much worse last year than their roster would dictate, and may be much better this year than expected. Coaches matter particularly in such a team sport. Systems matter. Teamwork matters, and its doubly so in a sport at the speed of hockey. If players have no chemistry, dont know where each other is supposed to be, and have no system, then they get slaughtered.

The more I hear about the ineptitude of the coaching last year, the most excited I get for this year.

I complained about this a lot last year. The roster while not good was far better than the result and competitiveness they were showing.

 

[Gecklund]

Well, thank goodness we have some high IQ college players coming onto the roster next year then!

Hey I’d argue Wennberg, Macklin, Toffoli, Smith all are higher IQ! Even Goodrow is probably higher than some of what we iced last year. Dellandrea who the hell knows. He’s touted as a high IQ player but did not show it in his time in Dallas.

 

[Hobocop]

I complained about this a lot last year. The roster while not good was far better than the result and competitiveness they were showing.

I even complained about this last year with the Barracuda. They had what seemed like a real solid group of players and then looked like they had no defensive structure at all. I'm hoping a system change at the NHL level trickles down to the AHL in a big way.

 

[Star Platinum]

Never mind I read your whole post. OH WELL keeping it. Yeah I mean I don’t think I’d move Macklin for Dobson but I’d pretty easily move Smith. With that said Dobson is the Isles second most important player. There isn’t a chance he moves.

If this forum wills it to be so, anything is possible.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I complained about this a lot last year. The roster while not good was far better than the result and competitiveness they were showing.

I would be interested in hearing a player's perspective about the system from the Karlsson-Norris year compared to last year.

 

[Sharksfan66]

The 26 team dynamic of the NHL in the 90's during those years referenced is a lot different than what the 32 team dynamic of the NHL is now. In those years, you didn't need as much as you do now to be playoff competitive. The Maple Leafs reference I think is a relevant one but our blue line will pale in comparison to that blue line. Gardiner was still able to produce. Zaitsev did that year as well. Rielly could eat minutes. We have guys that can eat minutes but none of them have produced 30 points in a season in the last five years. The other thing is that Freddie Andersen was a legitimately dependable starting goalie. Blackwood has been admirable in his starts here but he's not that caliber of goalie and it's unlikely that Askarov will be that this year on this team. I don't know about 2025-'26 but them making the playoffs this year is probably correctly a foregone conclusion that it won't happen. There's nothing wrong with that. They will be better this season than last season and that's perfectly fine. The team still has a lot of work to do to become competitive.

Agreed on the 90s teams, I just point that out to say Sharks fans should, of all teams, have a framework for massive turnarounds from one season to the next.

On the Leafs example, I'm with you on their D group being well ahead of ours, but I remember Freddie melting down in the playoffs that year—sounds a little like Askarov the last 2 years in the AHL. Could he be ready to make the jump to the NHL? And if so, could a Blackwood/Askarov tandem could match the Freddie/McElhinney tandem (with Blackwood being less than Freddie but Askarov being much more than McElhinney and taking over the starter role by the time the playoffs come around)? I don't know. But I do not see it as a foregone conclusion that it's impossible or even improbable. Will be very interesting to see how Askarov does and where he starts/ends the year this year.

In the end, I agree the team still has a lot of work to do to really become competitive for a cup. But I think making the playoffs isn't as high of a bar as we sometimes think it is. Remember, the Kracken made the playoffs 2 years ago w/ Martin Jones as their starter. They even won a round against the defending champs! Is our group really so far off from that team??

 

[TheBeard]

I even complained about this last year with the Barracuda. They had what seemed like a real solid group of players and then looked like they had no defensive structure at all. I'm hoping a system change at the NHL level trickles down to the AHL in a big way.

If anything the talent is significantly better .

 

[gaucholoco3]

Hedman was drafted a year after Stamkos

Makar was drafted 4 years after MacKinnon

It is absolutely NOT too late to draft and develop our own homegrown #1D, especially given how high we'll likely pick for the next 2 years, we're not even close to being on the clock with Celebrini yet, he doesn't turn 19 years old until next June, this is overly alarmist

Dobson isn't too old for our window but D men in the 2025 and 2026 drafts also aren't too young for our window

As a counter point I think Tampa only won their 2nd cup with severe cap circumvention and the covid year.

I think Colorado’s window has already closed. I doubt their core will win another cup.

The issue is that these players get expensive quick and getting one now if available can take advantage of the cheap years of all the upcoming Sharks prospects.

I know it’s getting greedy wanting multiple cups but this team has the chance to be something special.

 

[weastern bias]

getting one now if available

"if available" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, it is not available

We have a team built to finish last place right now, it's not going to be championship caliber in 3 seasons

Every cup winner ever took advantage of unique circumstances to win in their year, it isn't a slight against them, you need to get lucky just as much as you need to be talented, smart and well managed

Maybe things all fall right for us one of these years, maybe they don't, but right now we have to worry about the "talented" part of the equation before the conversation can even be started, we have one truly can't-miss foundational piece in the entire organization and he's played zero NHL games, we shouldn't be jumping the gun and worrying about "only" winning one cup, we're still years away from a playoff berth

 

[sampler]

It might have been Sturm that mentioned this but I don’t think it’s all on Quinn. I think a part of it is the talent. Quinn has to dumb down the system to fit the talent that they had. You can’t play some overly complicated system when 75% of your team would clear waivers.

That makes little sense to me. There is no reason any professional hockey player couldnt work out a system. The roster might not have had the individual talent, but its not like they were mentally impaired. They cant run a system like "give the puck to mcdavid, cue bullhorn", but ive seen many many undertalented teams go far with excellent structure and team play. It's quinn....

And to another person's point, I agree about the cuda. Sommer knew what he was doing. He was around forever and developed countless great players who were not 1st round picks. Mccarthy does not seem like the right guy for the job there. He had no coaching experience, no proof that he can win, and I think that hire, like Quinn, was more a personal choice than a professionally responsible one. Mccarthy should get the boot too, and they should bring in a proven winner at the AHL too (or someone who won in the ECHL, College, or even juniors.

Coaching matters. A lot. Talent matters too, of course, as EK's norris season was basically pure talent on display and historically good but the team still finished nearly last. Quinn's coaching was so bad that even with the best year of EK's borderline HOF career, the team was horrific. Hockey is a team sport, and teams that have clear systems and can move the puck quickly look much faster than the individual players actually are. It doesnt do any good to have blazing speed but spend all your shifts running around your own zone like a chicken with your head cut off.

 

[ChompChomp]

I am keep hearing Nick Robertson link to the Sharks because of his contract dispute with TOR. Would he fit with the Sharks? He is a LW, 22 years old California kid, brother of Dallas Jason Robertson but not as talented. I can't see where would he fits in with the Sharks. We already have 5 LW Eklund, Zetterlund, Gushin, Musty, and Chernyshov. Don't think we need this guy.

I wouldn't want to give up anything to get him. Nick Robertson's rights in exchange for "future considerations", sign him to a one year, two-way contract with a nominal bump on his NHL and AHL pay? Sure. He can come in and compete for a spot, and most likely end up with the Cuda because he's not good enough for a top 6 role, but probably not suited for a bottom 6 role. I don't think he wants that, though, and if he had a choice, he would probably prefer another team that would have an NHL spot for him somewhat guaranteed.

I will say this, if there is ever even an inkling that Jason Robertson will hit UFA, then you get Nick Robertson just to try to lure Jason here. I'll never forget Scott Niedermeyer turning us down for Anaheim because his brother Rob was there and want to see that happen once in my life with the Sharks, because Freddie Hamilton didn't work.

 

[Gecklund]

That makes little sense to me. There is no reason any professional hockey player couldnt work out a system. The roster might not have had the individual talent, but its not like they were mentally impaired. They cant run a system like "give the puck to mcdavid, cue bullhorn", but ive seen many many undertalented teams go far with excellent structure and team play. It's quinn....

And to another person's point, I agree about the cuda. Sommer knew what he was doing. He was around forever and developed countless great players who were not 1st round picks. Mccarthy does not seem like the right guy for the job there. He had no coaching experience, no proof that he can win, and I think that hire, like Quinn, was more a personal choice than a professionally responsible one. Mccarthy should get the boot too, and they should bring in a proven winner at the AHL too (or someone who won in the ECHL, College, or even juniors.

Coaching matters. A lot. Talent matters too, of course, as EK's norris season was basically pure talent on display and historically good but the team still finished nearly last. Quinn's coaching was so bad that even with the best year of EK's borderline HOF career, the team was horrific. Hockey is a team sport, and teams that have clear systems and can move the puck quickly look much faster than the individual players actually are. It doesnt do any good to have blazing speed but spend all your shifts running around your own zone like a chicken with your head cut off.

Oh definitely coaching matters. But if your system is all out offense but you have no offensive players, you need to dumb down your system and change it. Extreme example that isn’t Quinn but we’ve seen tons of players suck and then suddenly excel in a new system. Hell look at Granlund.

 

[gaucholoco3]

"if available" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, it is not available

We have a team built to finish last place right now, it's not going to be championship caliber in 3 seasons

Every cup winner ever took advantage of unique circumstances to win in their year, it isn't a slight against them, you need to get lucky just as much as you need to be talented, smart and well managed

Maybe things all fall right for us one of these years, maybe they don't, but right now we have to worry about the "talented" part of the equation before the conversation can even be started, we have one truly can't-miss foundational piece in the entire organization and he's played zero NHL games, we shouldn't be jumping the gun and worrying about "only" winning one cup, we're still years away from a playoff berth

Yes I know luck plays an important role in every cup. If rules were the same as now the goal in game 6 of the year that didn’t happen would have probably led to Sharks already having lifted the cup.

I do argue against the Sharks having the last place roster now. Their D is bad but nothing like last year. Replacing Addison, Burroughs, and Okhotyuk with Ceci, Walman, and Benning is huge.

If this team added Dobson right now I would consider it a potential playoff team with how weak the Pacific is.

Ferraro - Dobson
Walman - Ceci
Thrun/Muk - Benning/Rutta

That’s not a bad D. Combined with 7 new Forwards that are replacing Hertl, Duclair, and non-NHL talent.

I would even trade Dobson for the Sharks unprotected 1st now but NYI are pretending like they are contenders so they won’t make that trade.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Agreed on the 90s teams, I just point that out to say Sharks fans should, of all teams, have a framework for massive turnarounds from one season to the next.

On the Leafs example, I'm with you on their D group being well ahead of ours, but I remember Freddie melting down in the playoffs that year—sounds a little like Askarov the last 2 years in the AHL. Could he be ready to make the jump to the NHL? And if so, could a Blackwood/Askarov tandem could match the Freddie/McElhinney tandem (with Blackwood being less than Freddie but Askarov being much more than McElhinney and taking over the starter role by the time the playoffs come around)? I don't know. But I do not see it as a foregone conclusion that it's impossible or even improbable. Will be very interesting to see how Askarov does and where he starts/ends the year this year.

In the end, I agree the team still has a lot of work to do to really become competitive for a cup. But I think making the playoffs isn't as high of a bar as we sometimes think it is. Remember, the Kracken made the playoffs 2 years ago w/ Martin Jones as their starter. They even won a round against the defending champs! Is our group really so far off from that team??

I don't recall specifics of Andersen's playoff run that first year in Toronto but he was no rookie neither. He and Gibson in the previous season won the Jennings trophy in Andersen's third year in the league. I don't think Askarov is ready next season but I do think in his contract year that he probably shows a lot of promise to be a long term #1.

Seattle may have made the playoffs with Jones getting most of the starts but they also had three 30+ point defensemen including Vince Dunn as their 2nd leading scorer and six forwards with 20 goals or more. They had depth throughout their lineup. We lack that.

 

[weastern bias]

Ferraro - Dobson
Walman - Ceci
Thrun/Muk - Benning/Rutta

That’s not a bad D.

That is a very bad D core

It's not 2024 Sharks bad, but few teams have ever been that bad

In my eyes that shakes out:

#5-#1
#4-#5
#7/#7-#7#6

A legit #1, one complimentary 2nd pair guy, 3 bottom pair guys and a bunch of spares

Dobson is awesome, he's not the singular piece that transforms the core into a playoff caliber defense, we need him plus a developed Dickinson plus a developed Mukhamadullin plus a developed pick from the next two first rounds before it looks competent, you need at least 4 quality NHL defensmen before you can start dreaming of being truly competitive

 

[sampler]

Oh definitely coaching matters. But if your system is all out offense but you have no offensive players, you need to dumb down your system and change it. Extreme example that isn’t Quinn but we’ve seen tons of players suck and then suddenly excel in a new system. Hell look at Granlund.

I completely agree. A coach does need to design a system that fits the needs of his players, and no doubt that different guys thrive in different systems. Different guys also thrive in different locker room environments.

Granlund last year did have a great year, but I am not sure that was a system thing as much as an opportunity thing. He got all the best O zone starts, PP time, linemates, etc. Comparing to the previous year, he played almost 21 mins/gm which was more than 5 min/gm more than he was getting in Pit, and he got zero PP time and pts in pit, vs 23 PP pts in SJ. Truth is sharks gave granlund similar opportunities, ice time, PP time, and looks at Nashville did in 21-22, and the result was nearly identical.

The sharks however clearly had no system whatsoever. I've heard departing players talk about how much they felt disrepected by a coach, hated a coach, or the how the coach might have lost the room. But, I'm not sure Ive ever seen a departing player AND a remaining player talk so openly about the complete disorganization and catastrophic chaos going on. Confusion, running around, not even trying to possess the puck, no clue how to build up a play, destroying the heart of a player.... These are massive indictments of the coaching on a level that I have never seen before. And for Sturm to say that the number one reason the sharks should be better is a new coach is unheard of. Not celebrini. Not new players. not a new buy in. Just a new coach. That's amazing to me....

Sharks are 250-1 to come out of the west and 200-1 to take the pacific... just put another 20 on each, to make $9,000. This is one of the easiest bets I've ever seen. needless to say, its wholly unlikely to pay off, but I truly believe those odds are 5x too steep. This is not the same team top to bottom. its a better team, and with a good system that maximizes player value, have good defensive structure, and plays as a team, we are going to make waves...