Post-Game Talk: 2023-2024 Leafs Roster/Changes/Turnovers & Replacement(s)

[4thline]

Kessel likely had a better shot, but otherwise Nylander is a better player, and Pens at that time had a much better overall team.

Limiting the top two lines to one good player on each isn't what Pittsburgh had to do to put Phil on line 3.

A- one of our top 2 lines would still have 2x star players
B- their top 6 was Crosby/Malkin + Kunitz/Hornqvist and Sheary/Rust.

Both Sheary and Rust started in the A that year, and had like 20 combined NHL points going into the playoffs. And while both of the established guys had the pesty element to their games neither was much more than a 40 point borderline 2nd liner at that point.

 

[LeafGrief]

Couldn’t disagree more. I don’t think this group gives a shit about the choking narrative anymore. Especially now that they got passed the first round. I think we might actually see them achieve success for the first time now that they have eluded that mental hurdle. Obviously they didn’t get the result we all wanted in the second round, but I think mentally they are probably in the best spot they’ve ever been in the last 7 years to start a season.

The only people really on edge is fans. We want to taste a larger amount of success. Winning one round wasn’t good enough for us. I don’t think it’s enough for the players in the room either but the biggest pressure point has been that first round and they finally got over that hurdle. So I don’t think the players feel that sense of pressure anymore which is a good thing overall.

Wishful thinking that they got over the hurdle. They got over round one and then face planted the moment the puck dropped on round 2. The hurdle is bigger now if anything.

And the idea that they don’t feel pressure any more couldn’t be further from the truth. The GM just got fired, we traded for a half dozen rentals, their contracts are coming up, and they have one round to show for it. Not to mention this is Toronto where there’s always pressure. The pressure is on in a big way, one round win just makes that the baseline for next year.

 

[notbias]

Hyman (15) --- Matthews (34) -- Nylander (20) -------> 69 goals total (Auston missed 20 games)
Marleau (27) -- Kadri (32) ------- Marner (22) ---------> 81 goals total
JVR (36) ------- Bozak (11) ------ Brown (14) ----------> 61 goals total

Total Top 9 Goals For: 211

All 3 RWers were swapped around throughout the year to spark the offense and balance the attack ... Which line does the opposition check?

You ignore the third line as they were ineffective at 5v5 and a lot of their point totals came from the PP.

Also, shocking that a team with 3 elite players on ELCs wouldn't try to put together better depth. It was really a missed opportunity.

 

[Gabriel426]

Don’t you think splitting Matthews and Marner up could force that commitment? Sit them both down and say this is the way it’s going to be. You don’t play together on the same line anymore, it’s about the team

That’s something Keefe had yet to do on a consistent basis. His reason to always go back to AM and MM were usually Willie and AM are not playing like a line, or the moment Willie didn’t record a point.
There is something about those two that they just can’t seem to be separated.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[francis246]

Wishful thinking that they got over the hurdle. They got over round one and then face planted the moment the puck dropped on round 2. The hurdle is bigger now if anything.

And the idea that they don’t feel pressure any more couldn’t be further from the truth. The GM just got fired, we traded for a half dozen rentals, their contracts are coming up, and they have one round to show for it. Not to mention this is Toronto where there’s always pressure. The pressure is on in a big way, one round win just makes that the baseline for next year.

Yeah you know why that happened? They put so much energy and focus into that first round match up narrative that they kind of lost focus moving into the next round. Almost appearing under prepared. Very common in sports.

I’ve been involved in high level sports/college sports as a coach for a number of years now and also played a few years pro in my sport (not hockey). The way fans internalize pressure is not how athletes internalize pressure. I can tell you that 100%. The players probably welcome a minimum of two rounds as a baseline.

I feel like fans think pro athletes sit in the dressing room and say, “ah shit we’ve got pressure on us boys” conversations like that are not happening. Pro athletes are so process orientated, strong mental preparation. It’s 1000% worse from a fan perspective compared to athlete, coach, GM perspective.

 

[The Iceman]

I drank the Kool Aid with the "We can and we Will" proclomation.

What I have come to realize is it is awesome the Leafs have 4 really good forwards
BUT
They should break up the gang and allocate resources elsewhere.

If you go to a steak house do you order 3 steaks because the steak is really good?
Or do you get a salad, steak, and a glass of wine.
Spread out the costs to have a better overall experience.

 

[Gabriel426]

Yeah you know why that happened? They put so much energy and focus into that first round match up narrative that they kind of lost focus moving into the next round. Almost appearing under prepared. Very common in sports.

I’ve been involved in high level sports/college sports as a coach for a number of years now and also played a few years pro in my sport (not hockey). The way fans internalize pressure is not how athletes internalize pressure. I can tell you that 100%.

I agree to that, I also think they(players and coaches) were thinking Bruins and prepared them for Bruins the whole time. When they realized it was Panthers, they probably all thought the series will be easier.

 

[francis246]

I agree to that, I also think they(players and coaches) were thinking Bruins and prepared them for Bruins the whole time. When they realized it was Panthers, they probably all thought the series will be easier.

100%, it was quite evident they let up on preparation because they assumed they were going to have an easier time against Florida. They really had to grind and stick to the process to beat Tampa and they just reverted to bad habits against Florida. Disappointing to say the least.

 

[notDatsyuk]

A- one of our top 2 lines would still have 2x star players
B- their top 6 was Crosby/Malkin + Kunitz/Hornqvist and Sheary/Rust.

Both Sheary and Rust started in the A that year, and had like 20 combined NHL points going into the playoffs. And while both of the established guys had the pesty element to their games neither was much more than a 40 point borderline 2nd liner at that point.

A- which of our top 2 lines would still have 2x star players?
B - confirms my point.

 

[4thline]

A- which of our top 2 lines would still have 2x star players?
B - confirms my point.

Whichever one has two of Matthews/Marner/Tavares. The odd man out would get the next best player (atm 20 goal 39 point Jarncrok who Matthews thinks is pretty good to play with). Then one younger/unproven type each. Far from "1 good player per line"

 

[notDatsyuk]

Whichever one has two of Matthews/Marner/Tavares. The odd man out would get the next best player (atm 20 goal 39 point Jarncrok who Matthews thinks is pretty good to play with). Then one younger/unproven type each. Far from "1 good player per line"

Taraves isn't a 'star player' any more, if he really ever was. Jarnkrok would be third after Matty and Mitch, but hardly a 'star'.

 

[4thline]

Taraves isn't a 'star player' any more, if he really ever was. Jarnkrok would be third after Matty and Mitch, but hardly a 'star'.

This is seriously f***ing stupid. I get that it was cool on the Islanders board to shit on JT, but get a grip.

 

[Sypher04]

As I see it, we have 4 needs and a fair deal of flexibility his year:

1. Speed
2. Offense from the backend
2. Net front clearing/cycle breaking D
3. High drive/high compete top 9 forwards

Our offense from the backend was awful, and I think actually greatly undermines our ability to generate offense in close checking situations

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

We're going to run it back with 80% of the same roster, aren't we?

 

[Sypher04]

We're going to run it back with 80% of the same roster, aren't we?

If it’s the right 80% I don’t see an issue

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

I wonder if there is a possibility we get Karlsson in a deal that involves Nylander. Obviously we would need more, even at 50%, but might open a door to then bring in Lindholm.

Knies - Matthews - Marner
Tavares - Lindholm - Tofolli

Rielly - Schenn
Brodie - Karlsson


I think finding a real #2C and moving Tavares off C is a legitimate huge priority. He may be getting points, but he looks 100% more suited for the wing now.

 

[rocketman588]

I wonder if there is a possibility we get Karlsson in a deal that involves Nylander. Obviously we would need more, even at 50%, but might open a door to then bring in Lindholm.

Knies - Matthews - Marner
Tavares - Lindholm - Tofolli

Rielly - Schenn
Brodie - Karlsson


I think finding a real #2C and moving Tavares off C is a legitimate huge priority. He may be getting points, but he looks 100% more suited for the wing now.

Karlsson even at 50% is a recipe for disaster he's paid until 27

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[LeafGrief]

Yeah you know why that happened? They put so much energy and focus into that first round match up narrative that they kind of lost focus moving into the next round. Almost appearing under prepared. Very common in sports.

I’ve been involved in high level sports/college sports as a coach for a number of years now and also played a few years pro in my sport (not hockey). The way fans internalize pressure is not how athletes internalize pressure. I can tell you that 100%. The players probably welcome a minimum of two rounds as a baseline.

I feel like fans think pro athletes sit in the dressing room and say, “ah shit we’ve got pressure on us boys” conversations like that are not happening. Pro athletes are so process orientated, strong mental preparation. It’s 1000% worse from a fan perspective compared to athlete, coach, GM perspective.

Under prepared is exactly the right term, and yes it is very common. Which is exactly why I'm expecting their focus to falter and fail next year unless their narrative changes. I know that their internal pressure is very different than fan pressure, but I also know that the literal players of the Toronto Maple Leafs have been crumbling under pressure for seven years now so I don't know that I agree with your assessment that they welcome two rounds as an assumption. Nylander clearly does, bless him for it, but Marner sure as hell doesn't. Marner has been getting eaten alive by his own pressure which has nothing to do with the fans and everything to do with his own demons, but the results are in and it so clearly effects him.

And I do acknowledge that the pros are process oriented and have strong focus. All of what you're typing out is how the Leafs should operate, but again, the results are in that this team just doesn't have that kind of strong mental preparation that you want from a professional team. They lose their focus every chance you give them, it's a far bigger weakness than anything to do with depth, defense, or goaltending. I don't think that the boys are sitting in the room and saying to each other, "aw shit, here we go again", I think that Marner is lying in bed at 4 in the morning unable to sleep because he desperately wants to be Doug Gilmour and knows that so far he's failing, that he desperately wants to be loved by this fanbase and many of us have long since turned on him, and year after year he can't bring himself to do what he needs to to win us back. This isn't about conversations in the dressing room, this is about how the weight of expectations can actually break the focus of these players and I submit the last five years as evidence that it keeps doing so. Game 7 against the Habs is the worst game I have ever seen the Leafs play, there really is no way of arguing that this core is any good at mental preparation like what you're saying. No doubt that we all wish they were.

At the end of the day, players are human and humans have endless variance. You get focus beasts like Jonathan Toews who could lead a team from 20 years old, and you get focus weaklings like Marner who simply cannot play well when he feels uncomfortable. This Leafs team is utterly terrible when it comes to preparation and focus (they've stank two Octobers in a row as well), and my argument is that this will be the year where they finally crack.

 

[francis246]

Under prepared is exactly the right term, and yes it is very common. Which is exactly why I'm expecting their focus to falter and fail next year unless their narrative changes. I know that their internal pressure is very different than fan pressure, but I also know that the literal players of the Toronto Maple Leafs have been crumbling under pressure for seven years now so I don't know that I agree with your assessment that they welcome two rounds as an assumption. Nylander clearly does, bless him for it, but Marner sure as hell doesn't. Marner has been getting eaten alive by his own pressure which has nothing to do with the fans and everything to do with his own demons, but the results are in and it so clearly effects him.

And I do acknowledge that the pros are process oriented and have strong focus. All of what you're typing out is how the Leafs should operate, but again, the results are in that this team just doesn't have that kind of strong mental preparation that you want from a professional team. They lose their focus every chance you give them, it's a far bigger weakness than anything to do with depth, defense, or goaltending. I don't think that the boys are sitting in the room and saying to each other, "aw shit, here we go again", I think that Marner is lying in bed at 4 in the morning unable to sleep because he desperately wants to be Doug Gilmour and knows that so far he's failing, that he desperately wants to be loved by this fanbase and many of us have long since turned on him, and year after year he can't bring himself to do what he needs to to win us back. This isn't about conversations in the dressing room, this is about how the weight of expectations can actually break the focus of these players and I submit the last five years as evidence that it keeps doing so. Game 7 against the Habs is the worst game I have ever seen the Leafs play, there really is no way of arguing that this core is any good at mental preparation like what you're saying. No doubt that we all wish they were.

At the end of the day, players are human and humans have endless variance. You get focus beasts like Jonathan Toews who could lead a team from 20 years old, and you get focus weaklings like Marner who simply cannot play well when he feels uncomfortable. This Leafs team is utterly terrible when it comes to preparation and focus (they've stank two Octobers in a row as well), and my argument is that this will be the year where they finally crack.

I agree with some of your sentiments. I think collectively this group may not have what it takes to win a championship. That happens, for whatever reason the mix isn't right or the coach can't get the best out of the group. It just doesn't work and it's been 7/8 years of the same thing and at some point you've got to get change going.

I also find it weird that the fanbase continuously attaches/puts the entire failure on Marner's shoulders and then says, he can't handle the pressure. It's a bit hypocritical don't you think? The expectations levelled on this guy by the fanbase is outright stupid. And why he is the subject of blame every year is also stupid. You have 22 other guys on the roster who also didn't produce. And I don't want to sound like I'm sucking Marner off here, but he is often unfairly blamed for everything. Why are we paying Matthews 11mill to not score in a series? Why? Matthews always gets to escape blame. Why is Keefe playing a rookie in Woll over Murray in a meaningful game?

Does Marner deserve some blame yes, but this narrative that Marner is the weakest out of the group is so stupid. We don't know that. Personally I think Matthews is the problem, he's supposed to be our leader and he doesn't take over games in the playoffs.

 

[LeafGrief]

I agree with some of your sentiments. I think collectively this group may not have what it takes to win a championship. That happens, for whatever reason the mix isn't right or the coach can't get the best out of the group. It just doesn't work and it's been 7/8 years of the same thing and at some point you've got to get change going.

I also find it weird that the fanbase continuously attaches/puts the entire failure on Marner's shoulders and then says, he can't handle the pressure. It's a bit hypocritical don't you think? The expectations levelled on this guy by the fanbase is outright stupid. And why he is the subject of blame every year is also stupid. You have 22 other guys on the roster who also didn't produce. And I don't want to sound like I'm sucking Marner off here, but he is often unfairly blamed for everything. Why are we paying Matthews 11mill to not score in a series? Why? Matthews always gets to escape blame. Why is Keefe playing a rookie in Woll over Murray in a meaningful game?

Does Marner deserve some blame yes, but this narrative that Marner is the weakest out of the group is so stupid. We don't know that. Personally I think Matthews is the problem, he's supposed to be our leader and he doesn't take over games in the playoffs.

In all of the posts I have written about Marner, which are many, I have never said that he's the only one to blame. There is more than enough blame to go around and I have written plenty about other players. I went after Matthews in another thread this morning. Though it is fair to say that I think Marner is the most culpable and also the best illustration of our problems. We don't know who says what in the room, sure, but when it comes to what these guys are actually doing on the ice, I have no problem saying that Marner is the weakest mentally

He's the one who cried in the pressbox and who's scoring disappears after Game 2 every series. He's the one flipping pucks over the glass and who turns into a giveaway machine every game 3. Matthews is super disappointing and can't take over games, but he and Marner share an A and only have $750k difference in salaries. We can blame Jake Gardiner and goaltending and depth scoring, and Matthews, the coach and everyone else, there's enough humble pie for seconds, but Marner fought tooth and nail for a leadership role and the big money contract too, so he gets to belly right up to the table. I blame him first because while I agree that Matthews disappears, I think Marner plays so badly that he becomes an active detriment, which we saw in the CBJ, MTL, and FLA series. To his credit, he's been very good against Tampa and was terrific his first three playoffs, which is really why all of this is so vexing.

I don't think there's anything hypocritical about what I'm saying. I think that the pressure he feels is entirely self-generated, he obviously cares so deeply about succeeding here. I don't think he gives a rat's ass about whether or not the fans blame him, but paradoxically, I think he cares very, very deeply about whether or not the fans love him. The pressure that shakes the focus for these guys is the pressure that comes from within, when they can't meet their goals or are facing adversity they don't know how to handle.

 

[Sypher04]

Any idea that Matthews is somehow escaping blame is not supported in talking here or virtually anywhere else about the Leafs and their playoff failures

I think Marner tends to get it a bit more being a local kid, which isn’t fair, but Matthews takes well more than his fair share as well.

 

[ACC1224]

Any idea that Matthews is somehow escaping blame is not supported in talking here or virtually anywhere else about the Leafs and their playoff failures

I think Marner tends to get it a bit more being a local kid, which isn’t fair, but Matthews takes well more than his fair share as well.

Not even close, IMO.

 

[francis246]

In all of the posts I have written about Marner, which are many, I have never said that he's the only one to blame. There is more than enough blame to go around and I have written plenty about other players. I went after Matthews in another thread this morning. Though it is fair to say that I think Marner is the most culpable and also the best illustration of our problems. We don't know who says what in the room, sure, but when it comes to what these guys are actually doing on the ice, I have no problem saying that Marner is the weakest mentally

He's the one who cried in the pressbox and who's scoring disappears after Game 2 every series. He's the one flipping pucks over the glass and who turns into a giveaway machine every game 3. Matthews is super disappointing and can't take over games, but he and Marner share an A and only have $750k difference in salaries. We can blame Jake Gardiner and goaltending and depth scoring, and Matthews, the coach and everyone else, there's enough humble pie for seconds, but Marner fought tooth and nail for a leadership role and the big money contract too, so he gets to belly right up to the table. I blame him first because while I agree that Matthews disappears, I think Marner plays so badly that he becomes an active detriment, which we saw in the CBJ, MTL, and FLA series. To his credit, he's been very good against Tampa and was terrific his first three playoffs, which is really why all of this is so vexing.

I don't think there's anything hypocritical about what I'm saying. I think that the pressure he feels is entirely self-generated, he obviously cares so deeply about succeeding here. I don't think he gives a rat's ass about whether or not the fans blame him, but paradoxically, I think he cares very, very deeply about whether or not the fans love him. The pressure that shakes the focus for these guys is the pressure that comes from within, when they can't meet their goals or are facing adversity they don't know how to handle.

Who did he start playing with in the playoffs after his first three lol? We all know that the problem is that Matthews and Marner should not be playing together in the playoffs.

You made some good points and I’ve also said in the past that Marner cares so much to the point it has affected his play. Though I would rather have a player that bleeds blue than guys who don’t love being a leaf or being here. I think Marner if we move on from im not saying we won’t ever win, if it’s a hockey trade I think we should do it. But I think he’ll be a guy we look back on and understand he’s probably misunderstood. Being passionate isn’t a sign of mental immaturity. Athletes cry all the time, yet it’s a problem when Marner does it lol? There isn’t a handbook that outlines how passion should present itself.