Post-Game Talk: 2023-2024 Leafs Roster/Changes/Turnovers & Replacement(s)

[notDatsyuk]

I was just respond about who leafs should trade between marner and nylander

A guy whos played the right way, working hard one of best dfensive player in NHL but was not able to provide a lot of offensive vs florida but coming with a 10.9 M contract
Or
A guy who giving you every thing youbwant to eliminate of your team, who didn't gave you a lot of offensive but cost 7M for 1 year before he would try to get at least as much than gaudreau and Tkachuk if its not as much of huberdeau or marner next season

A guy who tries to play the right way but makes far too many defensive mistakes while not providing much offence, especially in the playoffs, for $10.9M.
Or
A guy who is consistently one of the best playoffs performers, for only $6.9M.

(I see that you round Mitch's contract down, but Willy's up, but I don't need to play that game.)

 

[Martin Skoula]

Nobody thinks Willy is the answer, just that he's closer to it than either Marner or Tavares.

Yes, it would have been much better to "surround them with proper vets from the beginning", but the Tavares signing basically made that impossible.

The best “proper vets” have been guys on cheap deals who want to win in Toronto. Who were the expensive vets Tavares prevented us from getting?

Last time we got a premium priced vet it didn’t go so well with Mr Ironman.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Marner is 10th playoff leading scored
Matthews 20 th

Trade all of them or bith nylander and matthews could easily meaning missed the playoff too. Before to think about looking good in playoff, you need to start by being in playoff

You can easily compare it to Washingtom before they finally been able to win it... its was the same exact thing we heard about ovy, backstrom and core of this team...

Marner:
first four games - 2G 8A
last seven games - 1G 3A

Matthews:
first four games - 3G 4A
last seven games - 2G 2A

Nylander:
first four games - 2G 4A
last seven games - 2G 1A

Considering that Nylander had less ice time and much less PP time, and for 1/3 less salary, which performed better, especially when the going got harder?

 

[thusk]

A guy who tries to play the right way but makes far too many defensive mistakes while not providing much offence, especially in the playoffs, for $10.9M.
Or
A guy who is consistently one of the best playoffs performers, for only $6.9M.

(I see that you round Mitch's contract down, but Willy's up, but I don't need to play that game.)

If you only watching stats maybe, if youre go look further... not even close

Last in how many different game did he get offensive production? 3 and of of those was when leafs was already trailed 5-0 and he started to show a little sign of life... he was great 2 of 7 game.. but sorry you need at least 4 win to win a serie.. not 2

This season hes the guy who almost cost serie vs tampa... just for fun go watch all 15 even strenght goal of leafs against tampa, who will see 9 of those 15 with nylander and a lot of those goal could had been easily avoid by nylanser elevate his intensity or just not being completly stupid

So its not my definition of best playoff player, for me its closier of worst playoff player

 

[FerrisRox]

WN vs MM
87pts vs 99pts
40G vs 30G
28PPP vs 36PPP
15% additional ice-time for Marner. If you adjust to points per minute of ice time, Nylander would be at 100pts.

Except that a large part in the discrepancy in time on ice is because Marner is killing penalties. Not exactly prime time to be racking up points.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The best “proper vets” have been guys on cheap deals who want to win in Toronto. Who were the expensive vets Tavares prevented us from getting?

Last time we got a premium priced vet it didn’t go so well with Mr Ironman.

I didn't say expensive, but even if you just look at Kadri and Hyman, the Tavares deal cost us both of them.

 

[thusk]

Marner:
first four games - 2G 8A
last seven games - 1G 3A

Matthews:
first four games - 3G 4A
last seven games - 2G 2A

Nylander:
first four games - 2G 4A
last seven games - 2G 1A

Considering that Nylander had less ice time and much less PP time, and for 1/3 less salary, which performed better, especially when the going got harder?

And against who marner/matthews had been playing vs nylander and what their opponent did?

If you watching exemple a guy like bergeron, did you only watching his offensive contribution or every thing he doing drfensivly? If you only taking what he did offensivly, Bergeron is not a great playoff player...his impact go far further than thebscoring sheet.

 

[Jojalu]

From everything they are saying today, Shanahan has called all the Core 4 and wants to run it back while Dubas was ready to break it up.

 

[Zero1]

I’m not worried about the next GM because we do have options but I have no idea who would replace Keefe.

It’ll have to be a first time head coach I would think unless Shanny swings for Quenneville.

 

[Gallagbi]

I didn't say expensive, but even if you just look at Kadri and Hyman, the Tavares deal cost us both of them.

Both could have been kept even with Tavares, length for Hyman and suspensions for Kadri seemed to be the big issue.

I dont see any scenario where Kadri ends up successful here, but we shouls have shifted around to keep Hyman. The money was there, just spread across a few roles

 

[notDatsyuk]

If you only watching stats maybe, if youre go look further... not even close

Last in how many different game did he get offensive production? 3 and of of those was when leafs was already trailed 5-0 and he started to show a little sign of life... he was great 2 of 7 game.. but sorry you need at least 4 win to win a serie.. not 2

This season hes the guy who almost cost serie vs tampa... just for fun go watch all 15 even strenght goal of leafs against tampa, who will see 9 of those 15 with nylander and a lot of those goal could had been easily avoid by nylanser elevate his intensity or just not being completly stupid

So its not my definition of best playoff player, for me its closier of worst playoff player

Well, I've shown you the stats, but this time just looking at the performances Willy was much better.

But you won't see that, and keep pretending all his points were meaningless while Mitch's were critical.

Willy was, at worst, our third best player, behind Rielly and (maybe) Matthews. Not counting the goalies.

 

[29Potvin]

Both could have been kept even with Tavares, length for Hyman and suspensions for Kadri seemed to be the big issue.

I dont see any scenario where Kadri ends up successful here, but we shouls have shifted around to keep Hyman. The money was there, just spread across a few roles

Avs fans wanted Kadri traded after his first year when he was suspended again in the playoffs and it looked at the time that the Leafs were right in trading him.

 

[Gabriel426]

Just the fact they are ufa and having full control of their destiny, will be hard to get all star player for...especially whe you consider Matthews want to wait before talking about extension... it will be the same thing if he traded... so you will get value for a rental Matthews before his NMC start. Forget 2nd overall pick, zegras or whatever for a rental. Just come back in the reality

So at the end, nothing you will get for Matthews will making you a better team. If leafs trade marner, Matthews is gone too...

So leafs have 2 choice, stay with matthews and marner and continu to try on playoff
or
Try to get a team who can as much finishing on bottom of the league than fighting for a playoff spot and maybe surprising in playoff

Choice is pretty easy

It’s funny how AM and MM is the only reason why Leafs made the playoffs according to you.

Nobody thinks Willy is the answer, just that he's closer to it than either Marner or Tavares.

Yes, it would have been much better to "surround them with proper vets from the beginning", but the Tavares signing basically made that impossible.

I think they thought JT can be that vet but it turns out JT is pretty much a younger and better skill Marleau.

 

[thusk]

Well, I've shown you the stats, but this time just looking at the performances Willy was much better.

But you won't see that, and keep pretending all his points were meaningless while Mitch's were critical.

Willy was, at worst, our third best player, behind Rielly and (maybe) Matthews. Not counting the goalies.

I suggest you, go watch all leafs goal against at even strenght... you will see 9 of those with nylander on the ice... and half of those goal, you will see nylandet without any kind of intensity or just dont understand whats happening in front of him

You only watching what he did offensivly, defensivly he was an handicap and by a miles the worst leafs player.

Marner and matthews shutdown the 3rd best offensive foward of NHL... its not important

Nylander was a disaster defensivly and helped tampa to score a lot of goal, its not important...

Watch the stats.... Oh my god oh my god oh my god... nylander was so good!!!! ( for sure its sarcasm)

 

[notDatsyuk]

Except that a large part in the discrepancy in time on ice is because Marner is killing penalties. Not exactly prime time to be racking up points.

Points per 60, which is only 5-on-5:
Marner: 2.79
Matthews: 2.73
Nylander: 2.62
Tavares: 2.09

Not much difference between the first three. especially considering two of them usually play together.

The big difference is that three of them make $11M each, while Willy makes only $7M.

 

[notDatsyuk]

And against who marner/matthews had been playing vs nylander and what their opponent did?

If you watching exemple a guy like bergeron, did you only watching his offensive contribution or every thing he doing drfensivly? If you only taking what he did offensivly, Bergeron is not a great playoff player...his impact go far further than thebscoring sheet.

Yes, I did notice, particularly against Florida, that they often played their better defensive players against the Tavares line, and often almost ignored JT to swarm Willy.

 

[Gabriel426]

The best “proper vets” have been guys on cheap deals who want to win in Toronto. Who were the expensive vets Tavares prevented us from getting?

Last time we got a premium priced vet it didn’t go so well with Mr Ironman.

UFA wise, not a whole lot, maybe Pietra if we had the cap room.
But if we are going to the what if this and that, a lot could had happened, like keeping Leo around, or trading for ROR when he left Buffalo to St. Louis, or getting JT Miller from TB via Vancouver, Toews from the Islanders….

 

[FerrisRox]

Points per 60, which is only 5-on-5:
Marner: 2.79
Matthews: 2.73
Nylander: 2.62
Tavares: 2.09

Not much difference between the first three.

I would argue that claiming there's "not much difference" between 2.79 and 2.62 isn't really accurate.

I have no question the financial difference is quite sizeable. I would also argue that trading Nylander wouldn't really be a "core shaking" movie that would really do much to change the culture of this club.

If they are looking to do something along the lines of what Florida did in terms of making a transaction that really changes the culture and the direction of the team it would require moving one of Marner or Matthews.

Of course, a player like Matthew Tkachuk is rarely available and what you bring in by moving out a young core player is even more important than what you gain by shipping out a player who maybe wasn't part of the solution. It's easy, on an emotional level, to say they have to make big dramatic move, but trading an $11 million player is already kind of tricky, but trying to do that in a "hockey trade" rather than a futures deal, or a deal you take the L on as part of moving out such a big contract is a whole other thing.

Whoever comes in as General Manager is going to have an enormous challenge if they are going to move a player like Mitch Marner. Moving Nylander would be much easier, but it wouldn't really change anything in terms of issues the team has, in my opinion.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Both could have been kept even with Tavares, length for Hyman and suspensions for Kadri seemed to be the big issue.

I dont see any scenario where Kadri ends up successful here, but we shouls have shifted around to keep Hyman. The money was there, just spread across a few roles

That was the problem - not enough money to be spread around too much.

 

[Gallagbi]

That was the problem - not enough money to be spread around too much.

A couple really obvious swaps keep Hyman. Term felt like the issue.

 

[thewave]

Both could have been kept even with Tavares, length for Hyman and suspensions for Kadri seemed to be the big issue.

I dont see any scenario where Kadri ends up successful here, but we shouls have shifted around to keep Hyman. The money was there, just spread across a few roles

Both could have been worked out just fine. You don't turn your back on a heart guy because the refs essentially goaded him into retaliation. One of which probably should not have been such a severe suspension. At least the team was into the series emotionally not like this by-standard team.

Hyman was easy, even McCann could have been worked in a way to probably keep him and there are more issues than just that, there are thousands of tiny cuts from Dubas, most of which stem from the lack of chemistry you get with such high turnover.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I suggest you, go watch all leafs goal against at even strenght... you will see 9 of those with nylander on the ice... and half of those goal, you will see nylandet without any kind of intensity or just dont understand whats happening in front of him

You only watching what he did offensivly, defensivly he was an handicap and by a miles the worst leafs player.

Marner and matthews shutdown the 3rd best offensive foward of NHL... its not important

Nylander was a disaster defensivly and helped tampa to score a lot of goal, its not important...

Watch the stats.... Oh my god oh my god oh my god... nylander was so good!!!! ( for sure its sarcasm)

I watched them all - did you notice that three were scored when he was just getting on the ice, but no time to join the play?

I saw that he does have a tendency to cover his man and not expect JT to lose his -- that may be his biggest problem.

But you have your take on things, which seems to be "if Willy was on the ice, everything was his fault".

 

[glue]

From everything they are saying today, Shanahan has called all the Core 4 and wants to run it back while Dubas was ready to break it up.

IF this is true..I just can’t watch maple leafs hockey next season. Shanny has to be on crack to think that’s the way to go. That said, I’m finding it hard to believe given it was Dubas who put his career on the line for the core 4

 

[Martin Skoula]

I didn't say expensive, but even if you just look at Kadri and Hyman, the Tavares deal cost us both of them.

You said we couldn’t surround them with the right vets from the beginning, they had Kadri and Hyman from the beginning and it didn’t seem to help much.

We also could have kept either one of them, Kerfoot + Jarnkrok/Holl vs Kadri/Hyman + Perry or a Marlie is the same money. We didn’t stop spending on middle of the lineup players when Tavares was signed, we spent on the wrong ones.

UFA wise, not a whole lot, maybe Pietra if we had the cap room.
But if we are going to the what if this and that, a lot could had happened, like keeping Leo around, or trading for ROR when he left Buffalo to St. Louis, or getting JT Miller from TB via Vancouver, Toews from the Islanders….

Sure, but was cap the issue with those guys or was it not spending the trade assets needed to get them? It’s not like we were in on those trades but couldn’t clear enough space at the last second.

Even Pietra, if he wanted to come here it was perfectly doable to create 8.8 mil of space for him. We signed Brodie the same offseason for 5 and had a bunch of 2-4 million tweeners we could move easily. Was it Tavares contract that was the problem or was it that he wanted to go to Vegas and we were never on the radar?

 

[notDatsyuk]

I would argue that claiming there's "not much difference" between 2.79 and 2.62 isn't really accurate.

I have no question the financial difference is quite sizeable. I would also argue that trading Nylander wouldn't really be a "core shaking" movie that would really do much to change the culture of this club.

If they are looking to do something along the lines of what Florida did in terms of making a transaction that really changes the culture and the direction of the team it would require moving one of Marner or Matthews.

Of course, a player like Matthew Tkachuk is rarely available and what you bring in by moving out a young core player is even more important than what you gain by shipping out a player who maybe wasn't part of the solution. It's easy, on an emotional level, to say they have to make big dramatic move, but trading an $11 million player is already kind of tricky, but trying to do that in a "hockey trade" rather than a futures deal, or a deal you take the L on as part of moving out such a big contract is a whole other thing.

Whoever comes in as General Manager is going to have an enormous challenge if they are going to move a player like Mitch Marner. Moving Nylander would be much easier, but it wouldn't really change anything in terms of issues the team has, in my opinion.

The difference is 0.17 points per 60 minutes of ice time. Willy and Mitch each had a bit over 1200 minutes last year, which works out to about 3.5 points per season. I would say that's "not much", especially when compared to Tavares'.

I agree that trading Nylander wouldn't be as 'core shaking' as trading Marner, although he might get a better return. In fact, I agree with everything except the first sentence.