Pre-Game Talk: 2023-2024 Habs Rookie Camp & Training Camp

[Harry Kakalovich]

Montreal picking up a few extra points against vastly better opponents and a Metro division that isn't actually worse than last season, and that they were barely a .500 team (which may still be bottom 10 or near it) when healthy with a soft schedule and when they were vastly outperforming their expected results is not a recipe for not being a bottom-10 team.

By most models, Montreal should be a bottom 5 team. Most talking heads think Montreal will be an awful team. Most rankings, data driven or not, have Montreal comfortably in the bottom-10. The only path for Montreal to not be bottom-10 is if multiple young guys take huge jumps forward. Which would be great, but shouldn't be expected.

Totally. Some young guys might exceed expectations, but also some will probably disappoint compared with last year's promise.

Look at how well the young Sens players have done, and they STILL haven't even come close to making the playoffs for years.

 

[Captain97]

Ok, I'll rephrase it, I want to see more of an effort from the team in playing a two-way game and it needs to start with Suzuki and Caufield. If it comes at the price of them not scoring more, I can live with that for now. I want to see them be able to win games when.they score 3 goals,, not need 5 because they give up 4.

Fair

 

[dcyhabs]

If that line is together on October 11th, the puzzle is pretty clear.

Caufield - Suzuki - Monahan/Newhook/Anderson
Slaf - Dach - RHP
Peason/Gallagher + the two of Monahan/Newhook/Anderson that don't play with Nick and Cole.
Peason/Gallagher - Evans - Armia/Ylonen/Pez

I really like that RHP is playing with Slaf or Anderson. Given RHP isn't playing with Anderson, I think Newhook should.

Matheson - Savard
Guhle - Kovacevic
Harris - Xhekaj
We'll see who stays from Lindstrom, Norlinder, Barron

Montembault
Allen/Primeau

I'd be a savage and cut Allen and Armia. And then I'd cut Norlinder and Barron and give them top pairing in Laval, alongside Trudeau and Mailloux. Struble and Tourigny would be my 3rd pair in Laval, but still get good minutes. When Dvo comes back he completes the 23 man roster.



Health and what kind of steps the young guys take (and Anderson and Monty) are the big unknowns.

It looks like the goaltending might regress hard. Monty hasn't looked really good so far, and Allen has a history of playing very badly if he plays more than a game a week.

I'd really like to see Slaf either play second line in the NHL or first line in the AHL, but we'll see. It was a terrible year to have 1OA in that sense because there is pressure (fans, ego, agent, player) to play him in the NHL, and certainly not to let him go back to Europe. Slaf would have been better off getting picked 3rd or 4th, or 10th in a stronger draft.

I have no clue about Lindstrom yet. Norlinder has looked better and he did his time in the AHL. Barron looked good the end of last year but not so good this year. It's weird how consistently the habs expect guys to grab jobs in pre-season and how consistently those guys abjectly fail to do so. Norlinder would be an exception except I don't think he was expected to really be an option.

I'd be happy if the team picks fifth as long as Slaf, Guhle, Newhook, and Monahan are healthy and play lots of minutes. I suppose that implies that they wouldn't play too well unless the goaltending absolutely tanked which is possible.

 

[26Mats]

It looks like the goaltending might regress hard. Monty hasn't looked really good so far, and Allen has a history of playing very badly if he plays more than a game a week.

I'd really like to see Slaf either play second line in the NHL or first line in the AHL, but we'll see. It was a terrible year to have 1OA in that sense because there is pressure (fans, ego, agent, player) to play him in the NHL, and certainly not to let him go back to Europe. Slaf would have been better off getting picked 3rd or 4th, or 10th in a stronger draft.

I have no clue about Lindstrom yet. Norlinder has looked better and he did his time in the AHL. Barron looked good the end of last year but not so good this year. It's weird how consistently the habs expect guys to grab jobs in pre-season and how consistently those guys abjectly fail to do so. Norlinder would be an exception except I don't think he was expected to really be an option.

I'd be happy if the team picks fifth as long as Slaf, Guhle, Newhook, and Monahan are healthy and play lots of minutes. I suppose that implies that they wouldn't play too well unless the goaltending absolutely tanked which is possible.

Norlinder has been good. But he's still developing. I'd rather him play top 4 in the AHL than be #7 in Montreal. We can always call him up when there are injuries. Lindstrom hasn't shown me anything. That's why I'd rather him in the pressbox in the NHL, and I'd give top 4 ice time to Barron and Norlinder in the AHL.

 

[ReHabs]

We have depth, but a lack of top end talent.

Depth is depth of talent. Depth is when you have 60pt players on your second line. We do not have depth.

We can deal with any injury at forward who isn't Caufield or Suzuki.

We have zero ambitions so obviously we can deal with injuries. We just play crappier players and lose just as many games as we would lose with slightly less crappy players.

 

[Treb]

Depth is depth of talent. Depth is when you have 60pt players on your second line. We do not have depth.

We have zero ambitions so obviously we can deal with injuries. We just play crappier players and lose just as many games as we would lose with slightly less crappy players.

I define depth as you can replace players with a marginal effect on the lineup.

We can absorb 2-3 injuries (counting the Dvorak injury) at forward with marginal effect (again, as long as it's not Suzuki/Caufield).

We can absorb 3-4 injuries at D (counting Wideman) with marginal effect (except Matheson/Guhle).

We can absorb 0-2 injuries at G with marginal effect.

But I do agree we do not have high end depth hence why I said we lack top end talent.

 

[ReHabs]

I define depth as you can replace players with a marginal effect on the lineup.

Effect as in results, right? If we’re gonna lose c.45-50 games this year , what difference does it make if we lose with Kovacevic or Wideman or Norlinder in the lineup?

We can absorb 2-3 injuries (counting the Dvorak injury) at forward with marginal effect (again, as long as it's not Suzuki/Caufield).

We can absorb 3-4 injuries at D (counting Wideman) with marginal effect (except Matheson/Guhle).

We can absorb 0-2 injuries at G with marginal effect.

But I do agree we do not have high end depth hence why I said we lack top end talent.

What do you mean absorb? What’s lower than losing…?

 

[Treb]

Effect as in results, right? If we’re gonna lose c.45-50 games this year , what difference does it make if we lose with Kovacevic or Wideman or Norlinder in the lineup?

What do you mean absorb? What’s lower than losing…?

You are being voluntarily obtuse.

 

[The Real Timo]

Effect as in results, right? If we’re gonna lose c.45-50 games this year , what difference does it make if we lose with Kovacevic or Wideman or Norlinder in the lineup?

What do you mean absorb? What’s lower than losing…?

Losing with a beatdown.

 

[HuGort]

Didn't Hughes say they specifically targeted Lindstrom in the Petry trade and were adamant that he was included? Wouldn't waiving him go against that?

If Hughes did I don't know what he sees in Lindstrom. No offense there what so ever

 

[Paddy17]

Tomorow, they should give Heineman a chance with Suzuki-Caufield in a real game instead of just a scrimmage. It's time to put Newhook back with Andy, with Monahan as their center. That would be quite a good 3rd line. Or maybe they can switch RHP and Monahan. Either way, the Newhook-Anderson duo seemed to work well earlier in camp, and Monahan can help Slaf and Dach.

 

[ReHabs]

You are being voluntarily obtuse.

What do you mean by depth? I don’t understand. We don’t have proven talent, so we don’t have depth (as I understand the word depth).

 

[Treb]

What do you mean by depth? I don’t understand. We don’t have proven talent, so we don’t have depth (as I understand the word depth).

We can replace player in our starting lineup with other players in our org without losing much effectiveness. That's what depth mean.

If you have a 60 pts player on your 2nd line, but your 14th forward is not NHL quality, you do not have depth, you just have a lot of top end talent.

For example, Edmonton had a lot of top end talent for years now, but they almost never had depth.

Most good teams have both.

 

[ReHabs]

Losing with a beatdown.

Losing a lot and losing with a beatdown a lot are essentially the same thing. Especially given we don’t have an expected 1A goalie, it’ll be hard to say we got beat down because of our “lack of depth” or that we avoided getting beat down due to our “depth” if we lose in both cases.

We can replace player in our starting lineup with other players in our org without losing much effectiveness. That's what depth mean.

If you have a 60 pts player on your 2nd line, but your 14th forward is not NHL quality, you do not have depth, you just have a lot of top end talent.

For example, Edmonton had a lot of top end talent for years now, but they almost never had depth.

Most good teams have both.

What effectiveness? Effective at what? Winning games? Playing strong hockey? We won’t win games and we won’t play strong hockey.

Depth means having an abundance of NHL talent. We do not have depth.

 

[Treb]

Losing a lot and losing with a beatdown a lot are essentially the same thing. Especially given we don’t have an expected 1A goalie, it’ll be hard to say we got beat down because of our “lack of depth” or that we avoided getting beat down due to our “depth” if we lose in both cases.


What effectiveness? Effective at what? Winning games? Playing strong hockey? We won’t win games and we won’t play strong hockey.

Depth means having an abundance of NHL talent. We do not have depth.

Effectiveness at playing hockey. As expected, you are just being voluntarily being obtuse.

We have an abundance of NHL talent, just not top end NHL talent.

We have at least 16 NHL level forwards.

We have at least 9 NHL level D.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Losing a lot and losing with a beatdown a lot are essentially the same thing. Especially given we don’t have an expected 1A goalie, it’ll be hard to say we got beat down because of our “lack of depth” or that we avoided getting beat down due to our “depth” if we lose in both cases.


What effectiveness? Effective at what? Winning games? Playing strong hockey? We won’t win games and we won’t play strong hockey.

Depth means having an abundance of NHL talent. We do not have depth.

We have low quality forwards, we replace them with AHLers and don’t miss a beat. This isn’t depth, it’s a bad forward group.

 

[ReHabs]

Effectiveness at playing hockey. As expected, you are just being voluntarily being obtuse.

We have an abundance of NHL talent, just not top end NHL talent.

We have at least 16 NHL level forwards.

We have at least 9 NHL level D.

I cannot possibly disagree more with your implied definition of “NHL level”. Because there is no floor. There is no relegation, we simply do not know how bad these teams could get when games actually matter. I don’t think Wideman or Pezzetta are NHL level players — they got TOI on one of the worst NHL teams — so their presence is a sign of bad depth not good depth.


To wit: Anthony Richard and Belzile, surprise performers last year for the Habs, were waived by their teams this year. They weren’t NHL quality.

 

[Treb]

I cannot possibly disagree more with your implied definition of “NHL level”. Because there is no floor. There is no relegation, we simply do not know how bad these teams could get when games actually matter. I don’t think Wideman or Pezzetta are NHL level players — they got TOI on one of the worst NHL teams — so their presence is a sign of bad depth not good depth.


To wit: Anthony Richard and Belzile, surprise performers last year for the Habs, were waived by their teams this year. They weren’t NHL quality.

There are more NHL quality forward than NHL spots. This is especially true on deep teams.

I don't think we have much more to discuss, so enjoy your evening.

 

[Milhouse40]

I cannot possibly disagree more with your implied definition of “NHL level”. Because there is no floor. There is no relegation, we simply do not know how bad these teams could get when games actually matter. I don’t think Wideman or Pezzetta are NHL level players — they got TOI on one of the worst NHL teams — so their presence is a sign of bad depth not good depth.


To wit: Anthony Richard and Belzile, surprise performers last year for the Habs, were waived by their teams this year. They weren’t NHL quality.

It's not the same quality of depth


Habs forward group for the last game of the year, 1st game after AllStar, 1st game after Christmas

I think our depth is better this years for sure.....I surely prefer to call up Roy and Heineman instead of Teasdale and Pitlick and I surely prefer moving up in the line-up a RHP or Ylonen than a Drouin or Hoffman.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Yall crazy if we have enough Depth to replace Dach Suzuki or even Caufield injured and have something in the system who can eat the minutes.

Remove the injuries and put the healthy roster , this is pretty much the same lineup , I agree with have upcoming prospect who are looking decent , but nothing that can replace a top 4 dman or top6 player.

 

[Treb]

Yall crazy if we have enough Depth to replace Dach Suzuki or even Caufield injured and have something in the system who can eat the minutes.

Remove the injuries and put the healthy roster , this is pretty much the same lineup , I agree with have upcoming prospect who are looking decent , but nothing that can replace a top 4 dman or top6 player.

I specifically said not Suzuki or Caufield.

 

[Jaynki]

Its true that we lack high end talent but its also true that we have a lot of good middle sixer, for what its worth.

On defense tho, we have high end talent, high end prospects and depth. We are really rolling there.

I would say we are one elite talent away in our forward group from having a very strong line-up. Acquiring a true offensive superstar would then place everyone else in their right chair.

We have a lot of assets to dangle.

With Matheson, Guhle and Reinbacher probably here for the next 7 years at least. (I assume Matheson is extended and retire here.) With the emergence of Hutson, Mailloux and considering we also have Norlinder, Harris, Xhekaj, Barron, Trudeau, Struble, Engstrom. Considering that we have in the next two drafts, 3 first round pick, 3 second round pick, 4 third round pick. And considering we will have a boatload of cap space.

I think our management group will be very agressive in the trade market for an elite talent up front. I don't think we know who is the next big forward name on the market yet but i think we will hear our team in his pursuit.

 

[blueberry]

The trouble I see is that we have too many defensemen and we'll have to move some before they all become waiver eligible. That really doesn't give us enough time to evaluate them properly. Now some seem to think we'll just trade them for an elite forward. In the next 2 years or so none of them will have proved anything and really they won't have any worth at all. We know they're good but nobody is gonna give you an elite player for them. It's gonna be a real problem as we're gonna have to waive them and probably lose some good talent for nothing.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

I specifically said not Suzuki or Caufield.

I don't see anyone replacing Matheson or Anderson

 

[dinodebino]

We have capable forwards as top 6. We do not have depth to replace any of them should injuries occur. Our kids in Laval are still inexperienced. And we are missing a top-end talent.

On D, lots of green talent. Beauties to come, reminiscent of the Expos young wolves of 1977-78; uber talented, just not mature yet.

Goalies suck. Point barre.

If the top 6 avoids injuries, I can see a 10-12 finish in the conference. If not, another bottom 5 lottery pick.