Speculation: 2023-2024 General Lightning Discussion - Part 3

[EmptyNetAssassin]

I would say 2 of the defensemen. It's a bit of a luxury to have 6/7 guys who are solid nhl D. But we need 4 or 5. As much as we like Raddysh, he's a bottom pairing D on a contender.


The idea that Hagel is overpaid given the current state of NHL contracts is just insane.

Hagel earns his contract.

 

[LeafLoyalist]

<<< Below from other thread that's closed, this seems to be GM talk anyways >>>
Not going to talk of blowing team up, trading players, etc. either. Will wait until players/coaches are done battling for Lightning, themselves, and us fans in playoffs. But will say this now, BriseBois/Lightning have been dealt a tough hand. From having to deal with flattest cap any "Cup" winners have ever dealt with during cap era. GM is fair game right now, so.....

Dominant NHL teams, Cap growth from 1st "Cup" >> 2 yrs after last "Cup" won.

• Chicago 2010-2017 >> 75,000,000 - 56,000,000 = 21 mil growth to keep (7yrs).
• Pittsburgh 2009-2019 >> 79,000,000 - 56,000,00 = 23 mil growth to keep (10yrs).
• Lightning 2015-2024 >> 72,000,00 - 69,000,00 = 14 mil growth to keep (9yrs).

BriseBois/Lightning cap growth while trying to 3-peat.

• Lightning 2020-2023 >> 82,000,000 - 81,000,000 = 1 mil growth to keep (3yrs).
• Lightning 2019-2024 >> 83,000,000 - 79,000,000 = 4 mil growth to keep (5yrs).

Numbers above are rounded to million, and data is not 100% perfect, but very close to numbers. The above paints picture needed: we can see that during Lightning's most dominate run ever, they had to deal with scraps trying to keep it all together. Those comparing Lightning situation to either Hawks or Pens are comparing apples -vs- bananas. Especially when one considers players salary's are more per year now = Cause and Effect >>> impact. Players made less when Hawks and Pens were doing deep playoffs runs, and they both had much more, to hold that all together There's lots to weigh here and not so cut & dry as some fans think this is. Sure there's other angles & reasoning I'm not seeing myself...

Lightning and GM's have dealt with smallest scraps any NHL powerhouse has ever dealt with during cap era. Especially at end of that awesome run! BriseBois has made some great production -vs- cost moves at beginning, and during 3-peat attempt. But some moves that weren't best cost -vs- production. But I doubt we're even this competitive without those moves made. Plus, I think trade -vs- cost GM paid for some players didn't help those players at all. I mean at all!!!! That was not smart by GM, but at same time... Wondering how many Lightning fans could've taken that.... "Cap-crap chicken sandwich" and turned into a decent "Cap chicken soup". It's never easy making chicken crap into chicken soup! GM/Lightning did OK considering Lightning didn't have much ingredients, or much left in cupboard to cook with. GM has done very well at times and other times not so well. I'll leave rest of this for off-season talk after we have all of playoffs to consider. Trust me, it's not all is sunny times with GM...

There's plenty of mistakes, and great moves by this GM: it's the possibility of pride, with the want this to be..."His Team" team, treatment of existing players since McD, and other things that bother me more. Mistakes and misses happen when bargain-shopping for right contracts to fill cap-quickened roster exodus. Especially considering other NHL teams aren't going to bend to every Lightning's whim either. The first trades going for "Cups" and 3-peat(Paul & Hagel) were fine and understandable. But other trades stink of think nothing but long-term for this team, no concerns with making existing players work while making this "His Lightning Team". Stinks of new GM wanting to get out from under Yzerman's "Team built" shadow. Who knows, but just seems that way sometimes.

Go Lightning !!!!

Got to say, impressed with how Tampa was able to transition through the most difficult era in all sports with a salary cap. Been a great run for you guys, easy to start pointing fingers as you have all been used to winning all the time. But this post should be an indication of how impress Brisebois managed the cap and the players, not many teams trade 1st round pics for depth guys to reach championship status, when it does work out, pay off is great, when it doesn;t out come the critics and the 'i told you so's'!!! Be grateful for the success, at least you have 2 cups to show for it, and 2 wins away from a third, a presidents trophy, many more team and individual accolades. What do we got, we got our media riding the waves of 'what could be' to utter disappointment. Yzerman set the foundation, but Brisebois was the one to sell off 1st round pics which was a huge risk, knocking him for it now is just disrespectful. When you got guys that have won 2 cups for you, you have a core that you have to keep feeding with whatever you have left, and some didn't pay off, it was possible, but if you hadn't tried you'd always wonder what if!

 

[DFC]

Insane quite possibly, however he is tied for 75th in the league in goals. Now I suppose one could make a case that all those should be in the 6.5 mil range. The thing is in a cap restricted league the contracts are bloated. Even through the flat years of Covid there has been little restraint on the money given out. Give the number of expensive contracts held by the bolts the roster is forced to where this one is. A few high end guys nd a load of 4th liners and inadequate defensemen.

I Hagel is a nice player he would be great at 4mil. But just comparing him to hat this guy got or that one does not make sense it is just trying to justify paying him more same with Sergi. It’s really clear that Cirelli overpaid as well due to the needs of the roster. Hagel is being paid more for his youth a direction the league has been heading. Hagel does not carry a line like Kuch or Point can he’s a improvment over Palat but all around does not play the role Killer did. It is impossible to ignore the contracts JBB gave out after the two cup wins. The players living up o those contracts is a issue because they all have term.

He's also like 10th in even strength points.

6.5 isnt what it used to be. Its 2nd line money, and not even high end

 

[OffBy1]

Insane quite possibly, however he is tied for 75th in the league in goals. Now I suppose one could make a case that all those should be in the 6.5 mil range. The thing is in a cap restricted league the contracts are bloated. Even through the flat years of Covid there has been little restraint on the money given out. Give the number of expensive contracts held by the bolts the roster is forced to where this one is. A few high end guys nd a load of 4th liners and inadequate defensemen.

I Hagel is a nice player he would be great at 4mil. But just comparing him to hat this guy got or that one does not make sense it is just trying to justify paying him more same with Sergi. It’s really clear that Cirelli overpaid as well due to the needs of the roster. Hagel is being paid more for his youth a direction the league has been heading. Hagel does not carry a line like Kuch or Point can he’s a improvment over Palat but all around does not play the role Killer did. It is impossible to ignore the contracts JBB gave out after the two cup wins. The players living up o those contracts is a issue because they all have term.

Every time you make a case that Hagel is over paid, you focus a single stat - goal scoring. He's not paid 6.5 to be a pure sniper, he's paid that because he's a two way player. He gets the third most SH time on ice at forward, and we had the 5th best PK% in the league. He had a career high in points this year, 75, improving on his 30 goal season prior. All but 2 of his goals are at even strength as Cirelli and Paul get more power play time.

Hagel has driven our second line. He's the only reason Cirelli and Stamkos were working on a line together as we've seen them try that for years and it never stuck until they put Hagel on it. After watching our first line fizzle through two games in FL, who did Cooper put on it for the must win game 3? Hagel, not Stamkos.

Hagel has been disappointing in the playoffs this year so far, but he's hardly alone there. You have to start with Kuch (though I think he's mentally dead from carrying the team all season) and Point, our two highest paid forwards who have been woefully ineffective.

 

[Byrddog]

Hes a 25 year old forward with 25, 30, and 26 goals in the last 3 seasons, He makes 1.5 million currently which is ridiculous and makes 9 next season on a 6.5 caphit. Thats... a fantastic deal. There is a lot of shit on this roster that you could point at and put together a likely decent argument about it being bad, but Hagel is probably the absolute worst example to use.

The amount of shit on the roster is directly proportional to the contracts others are paid. It not tha he is not a fit or a bad player it is the cap hit in proportion to what the league value is in comparison to the cap. I doubt there is any argument that Cirelli’s contract is worse the contract that Jeanott has and for that matter Sergei’s contract as well. Hagels goal production was 74th in the league this year. The league average salary was a tad over 3.5 mil. There were 124 guys who had more than 20 goals including Cirelli at 20. A 20 goal player is not the same as a 20 goal guy from the past. There has been argument here that Stamkos should sign for 5 mil from a productivity standpoint there should be no reason Stammer take that when both Cirelli and Hagel make more. Hagel is a good player he has benifited from Kuch and Point. At one point I thought Hagel could be a 40 goal guy I no longer think that. You correctly point out the down roster guys that just have not been close to producing what we needed them to.

Comparatively Kuch is underpaid and Point is borderline underpaid in comparison to other guts in the league with similar production. Then again it’s impossible to fill a roster with salaries as they are now with a lagging Cap. You can look league wide teams with a couple players making near top salaries struggle . Edmonton, Toronto are really good examples like the Bolts now each have huge holes that have prevented them from going all the way. Most will just say that’s the way it is we got two cups out of it but it should not be that way The GM’s learned budgeting from the federal government but they have limits on what they can spend.

As you point out there are a number of unworthy guys on the team that would arguably be AHL stars. It if the salary distribution has led to the current roster problems but less than NHL young guys have impacted it as well.

So we are probably going to see Stamkos walk this off-season why not that’s been the plan the last three years . Allow proven guys walk and make it up as you go. And it’s not just the stars. Why let Maroon go only to sign Watson and Jeanott for three times more money that the Rig would have taken and Don basically the same job as those two. They’re about 2 mil for an upgrade. It’s 1 and 2 mil mistake that JBB made that has slammed the window shut. How happy you think Kuch, Point are going to be next year?

 

[Byrddog]

Every time you make a case that Hagel is over paid, you focus a single stat - goal scoring. He's not paid 6.5 to be a pure sniper, he's paid that because he's a two way player. He gets the third most SH time on ice at forward, and we had the 5th best PK% in the league. He had a career high in points this year, 75, improving on his 30 goal season prior. All but 2 of his goals are at even strength as Cirelli and Paul get more power play time.

Hagel has driven our second line. He's the only reason Cirelli and Stamkos were working on a line together as we've seen them try that for years and it never stuck until they put Hagel on it. After watching our first line fizzle through two games in FL, who did Cooper put on it for the must win game 3? Hagel, not Stamkos.

Hagel has been disappointing in the playoffs this year so far, but he's hardly alone there. You have to start with Kuch (though I think he's mentally dead from carrying the team all season) and Point, our two highest paid forwards who have been woefully ineffective.

Each of the last 3 years we have subtracted scoring and will be doing it yet again this year. If you do not have higher scoring expectations for the best fill guy that’s been brought in in the recent past I’m just not sure how you think a team competes. I had hoped Shery would not be a dud but he is. We do not have the same Vasy from three years ago so scoring is even more important. . With no Stamkos we are looking at Kuch Point and Hagel being split up. Not sure where the goals lost will be replaced.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

I don't see any way Point, Kuch, Stamkos, Hagel, Hedman or Vasy leave.

Yes, Stamkos is the biggest question mark here. But dude can still play and produce at a very high level. His play from the TD to date has been fantastic. The playoff effort has been fantastic as well.

All the guys listed above are your high end talent and need to be kept. I think the pieces around them need shuffling. Look at guys like Cirelli and Cernak for that. Major cap relief players. Add in Sheary, Jeannot and whoever else - this is your cap relief.

Also, I'm still convinced that you're playing Russian roulette if you let Stamkos walk. There's been no indication that this offense can survive without him. You are truly a one line team at that point and there are no sure things in FA this year. The best you can do is a couple of mid level guys, but you see how easily that can go off the rails with Duclair.

 

[JTBF81]

Tampa actually improved in gf/g this year, 3.51 vs 3.41 last year. Better pp% and rank, 3rd to 1st, 25.4 to 28.6, better pk as well, 15th to 5th, 79.7 to 83.3. 5th best offense I'm the league. But as usual, Byrd doesn't let facts get in the way of his narrative.

 

[JTBF81]

Unfortunately, what has suffered the last 3 years has been defense. From 2.78 ga/g in '21-'22, to 3.07 last year, to 3.26 this year. Some if it was Vasy missing 25 games, but the overall defense has been going in the wrong direction lately. Offense has been fine though, 3.48, 3.41, 3.51 the last 3 years.

 

[Stammertime91]

Unfortunately, what has suffered the last 3 years has been defense. From 2.78 ga/g in '21-'22, to 3.07 last year, to 3.26 this year. Some if it was Vasy missing 25 games, but the overall defense has been going in the wrong direction lately. Offense has been fine though, 3.48, 3.41, 3.51 the last 3 years.

Issue is finding defenseman that don't shit the bed. Haven't had much success there lately.

 

[DFC]

The amount of shit on the roster is directly proportional to the contracts others are paid. It not tha he is not a fit or a bad player it is the cap hit in proportion to what the league value is in comparison to the cap. I doubt there is any argument that Cirelli’s contract is worse the contract that Jeanott has and for that matter Sergei’s contract as well. Hagels goal production was 74th in the league this year. The league average salary was a tad over 3.5 mil. There were 124 guys who had more than 20 goals including Cirelli at 20. A 20 goal player is not the same as a 20 goal guy from the past. There has been argument here that Stamkos should sign for 5 mil from a productivity standpoint there should be no reason Stammer take that when both Cirelli and Hagel make more. Hagel is a good player he has benifited from Kuch and Point. At one point I thought Hagel could be a 40 goal guy I no longer think that. You correctly point out the down roster guys that just have not been close to producing what we needed them to.

Comparatively Kuch is underpaid and Point is borderline underpaid in comparison to other guts in the league with similar production. Then again it’s impossible to fill a roster with salaries as they are now with a lagging Cap. You can look league wide teams with a couple players making near top salaries struggle . Edmonton, Toronto are really good examples like the Bolts now each have huge holes that have prevented them from going all the way. Most will just say that’s the way it is we got two cups out of it but it should not be that way The GM’s learned budgeting from the federal government but they have limits on what they can spend.

As you point out there are a number of unworthy guys on the team that would arguably be AHL stars. It if the salary distribution has led to the current roster problems but less than NHL young guys have impacted it as well.

So we are probably going to see Stamkos walk this off-season why not that’s been the plan the last three years . Allow proven guys walk and make it up as you go. And it’s not just the stars. Why let Maroon go only to sign Watson and Jeanott for three times more money that the Rig would have taken and Don basically the same job as those two. They’re about 2 mil for an upgrade. It’s 1 and 2 mil mistake that JBB made that has slammed the window shut. How happy you think Kuch, Point are going to be next year?

You are complaining about a guy who gets almost no PP time and is second only to Kucherov in 5v5 points. I really think you have to take the L on this one. We've all been wrong on this board.

As for Hagel's goal-scoring, not everybody on that line can score 40.

Unfortunately, what has suffered the last 3 years has been defense. From 2.78 ga/g in '21-'22, to 3.07 last year, to 3.26 this year. Some if it was Vasy missing 25 games, but the overall defense has been going in the wrong direction lately. Offense has been fine though, 3.48, 3.41, 3.51 the last 3 years.

I mostly agree, although our 5v5 offense (without looking at the numbers) seems to have suffered a lot. We were floated by the best PP in the league this year, and great special teams over all, but we were a big time negative team at even strength. And that's after the last 1/4 of the season masked how bad it really was.

 

[DMB06]

I don't see any way Point, Kuch, Stamkos, Hagel, Hedman or Vasy leave.

Yes, Stamkos is the biggest question mark here. But dude can still play and produce at a very high level. His play from the TD to date has been fantastic. The playoff effort has been fantastic as well.

All the guys listed above are your high end talent and need to be kept. I think the pieces around them need shuffling. Look at guys like Cirelli and Cernak for that. Major cap relief players. Add in Sheary, Jeannot and whoever else - this is your cap relief.

Also, I'm still convinced that you're playing Russian roulette if you let Stamkos walk. There's been no indication that this offense can survive without him. You are truly a one line team at that point and there are no sure things in FA this year. The best you can do is a couple of mid level guys, but you see how easily that can go off the rails with Duclair.

It just depends on what Stammer signs for. If these are my options:

1. Stammer is offered 9m aav elsewhere, we match it.

2. We use that same 9m to bring in two quality depth pieces, 4.5 aav each.

I'm going with option 2. Look at how close our couple of series against the Islanders were in recent years, and they have no stars (other than legendary Barzal, of course). That team is basically nothing but depth pieces.

My point is that a top heavy team, which we are right now, isn't really a great team. So if Stammer's money can instead go to building up our depth, which we desperately need, I think that makes us a better team than re-signing him alone.

 

[Flat Ronnie]

It just depends on what Stammer signs for. If these are my options:

1. Stammer is offered 9m aav elsewhere, we match it.

2. We use that same 9m to bring in two quality depth pieces, 4.5 aav each.

I'm going with option 2. Look at how close our couple of series against the Islanders were in recent years, and they have no stars (other than legendary Barzal, of course). That team is basically nothing but depth pieces.

My point is that a top heavy team, which we are right now, isn't really a great team. So if Stammer's money can instead go to building up our depth, which we desperately need, I think that makes us a better team than re-signing him alone.

What makes you think he's gonna ask for more than he makes now? Yes, some team elsewhere might offer him that, but that hardly means he wants to uproot his family at this stage if his career.

Also, instead of using the Stamkos money to fill in holes, why not look to move Cernak or Cirelli instead?

 

[Byrddog]

What makes you think he's gonna ask for more than he makes now? Yes, some team elsewhere might offer him that, but that hardly means he wants to uproot his family at this stage if his career.

Also, instead of using the Stamkos money to fill in holes, why not look to move Cernak or Cirelli instead?

Moving Cirelli without retention is going to be problematic. He is a luxury two way player that would fit in on defensive built teams like maybe St Louis but their issue is needing scoring. He would also fit in a Toronto or Edmonton due to the unlimited goal scoring they already have but they can not fit his cap. I just can’t see Stamkos resigning here for less than Cirelli or Hagels salary. Stammer should have been extended last summer and it has been reported that he was not thrilled when that did not happen. It will be a huge black eye if he in fact leaves.

 

[Point21]

Offseason to do list:
Trade 1-2 of Sheary/Perbix/Jeannot
Listen to offers on Cirelli/Cernak before the NTCs kick in
Fire Blashill/Hire Groulx
Talk extension with Duclair/Stamkos
Let Dumbass/De Haan/Watson walk
Re-Sign Motte/Chaffee/Fleury for as little as possible
Bring up guys like Goncalves/Merela/Fortier up to fill out bottom 6 spots
Shore up defense and possible top 6 forward spot

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Should we trade for Kaliyev (the guy we should have drafted in 2019)? Young guy with a track record in junior of big time production who TMac and Hiller have f***ed over with the Kings. I know he's relatively soft but he can score in the right situation.

Should we look to take advantage of those who are unqualified as RFAs and get them to sign?

Offseason to do list:
Trade 1-2 of Sheary/Perbix/Jeannot
Listen to offers on Cirelli/Cernak before the NTCs kick in
Fire Blashill/Hire Groulx
Talk extension with Duclair/Stamkos
Let Dumbass/De Haan/Watson walk
Re-Sign Motte/Chaffee/Fleury for as little as possible
Bring up guys like Goncalves/Merela/Fortier up to fill out bottom 6 spots
Shore up defense and possible top 6 forward spot

I personally think Finley is closer than Fortier (who may never make it at this point). Groshev might be closer too

 

[DMB06]

What makes you think he's gonna ask for more than he makes now? Yes, some team elsewhere might offer him that, but that hardly means he wants to uproot his family at this stage if his career.

Also, instead of using the Stamkos money to fill in holes, why not look to move Cernak or Cirelli instead?

I agree with you completely about moving others, like Cernak or Cirelli and several other players as well. And I don't at all know what Stammer will be offered by us or another team. I'm just saying that IF it's in the 8-9 aav range, my opinion is that money can be used elsewhere to make the team better. If he's willing to sign for 5-6 aav, then that changes things. I don't hate the guy, I just think depth is vital in the NHL and we currently have very little if any at all. It all just depends what he's offered and we won't know that for awhile. I just wouldn't be surprised if a team comes out and throws an offer out there that nobody is expecting. Maybe even a 2 year deal at 10m, or even 11. Who knows, we'll just have to see.

 

[flying squirrel]

Hagel earns his contract.

Yep, agree and his contract will only improve in value as cap creeps up.

Plus, Lightning have only so many players from 8 yrs of playoffs & 3-peat years. Many of those players grew up within organization, and had "That Will" to go through wall for Lightning, themselves, fans, etc. That takes time to build and doesn't grow on trees! Hagel in his short-time here, is Lightning through and through. Hagel is one of our own: in modern sports this is special, when one can pull for that as a fan. We've been fortunate, so fortunate....

Lightning have removed, or lost enough soul from lockeroom. Don't think losing more of that would be wise, if trying to win is still on table. Players like Kilorn, Palat, Johnson, Gourde, McD, Paquette, Maroon, and others are hard to replace because they'd run through wall for Lightning. Hagel is cut from same cloth, skilled, and still as upside to boot.

 

[Point21]

Should we trade for Kaliyev (the guy we should have drafted in 2019)? Young guy with a track record in junior of big time production who TMac and Hiller have f***ed over with the Kings. I know he's relatively soft but he can score in the right situation.

Should we look to take advantage of those who are unqualified as RFAs and get them to sign?


I personally think Finley is closer than Fortier (who may never make it at this point). Groshev might be closer too

Yes on Kaliyev! i really wanted him this deadline when he was rumored to be on the block. i think he would be the perfect fit in the middle 6 if we dont bring back Duclair. could even be put on the top line with a passer like Kuch and be a 25-30 goal scorer in 1-2 years.

I do think Finley is closer but with Glendening covering the 4C spot, i think they will let him go 1 more year in the AHL and see if Fortier has anything to give or if hes just another ABB that likely sits as a career AHL guy with the occasional call up

 

[Crunchrulz]

Offseason to do list:
Trade 1-2 of Sheary/Perbix/Jeannot
Listen to offers on Cirelli/Cernak before the NTCs kick in
Fire Blashill/Hire Groulx
Talk extension with Duclair/Stamkos
Let Dumbass/De Haan/Watson walk
Re-Sign Motte/Chaffee/Fleury for as little as possible
Bring up guys like Goncalves/Merela/Fortier up to fill out bottom 6 spots
Shore up defense and possible top 6 forward spot

No way I bring in Groulx. His coaching style will immediately clash with the older players, and he was not well liked by many of the former Crunch players who have now moved up to Tampa or other organizations.
Rochester fans warned us when he was signed that he is only as good as the talent he has and is not capable of getting most players to take the step needed to get to the NHL. His record, especially in the post season, proves they were correct, as hard as it is for Crunch fans to admit Amerks fans are correct about anything.

 

[Rschmitz]

Hagel is still making just 2m, anyone complaining his contract is literally insane

 

[Soul Assumption]

Hagel is close to PPG without 1st PP so most points are 5v5. 6.5m is a very good contract, literally the best contract in the team after Kuch

 

[DFC]

Moving Cirelli without retention is going to be problematic. He is a luxury two way player that would fit in on defensive built teams like maybe St Louis but their issue is needing scoring. He would also fit in a Toronto or Edmonton due to the unlimited goal scoring they already have but they can not fit his cap. I just can’t see Stamkos resigning here for less than Cirelli or Hagels salary. Stammer should have been extended last summer and it has been reported that he was not thrilled when that did not happen. It will be a huge black eye if he in fact leaves.

Cirelli is still regarded as one of the best defensive forwards in the game, and has two cups under his belt. We wouldnt retain a penny.

I think your idea of player contracts is like 5-7 years behind reality.

 

[Byrddog]

Cirelli is still regarded as one of the best defensive forwards in the game, and has two cups under his belt. We wouldnt retain a penny.

I think your idea of player contracts is like 5-7 years behind reality.

While it may be true my contract is 5 to 7 years behind popular opinion it does not omit logical budgeting. And it is possible to have a perfect storm of having a roster loaded as the lots did the year before the back to back started and lasting a couple years. We benifited from young superstars in their early years cost controlled and some veterans on dirt cheap contracts like Shattenkirk and Coleman. The aftermath of success hamstrings teams teams typically for 5 to 10 years. Look at the Devils and the Blackhawks for example, the Lightning are on the same path both of those teams continue to suffer thru. Those teams are difficult to watch now and it has been what 10 years or so since they peaked. Consider the last half of Towes and Sharp’s careers slogging thru years of inability to be competitive, well yes they had those fat contracts that paid for the pain endured.

The underlying cause is in contracts and the league not meeting the cap increases envisioned when they put cap in the CBA. The league projected back then that by 2015 the cap would be 121 million and they placed a maximum individual player contract by percentage. If the Cap had even come close to Bettmans predictions from way back then 6.5 mil would not be an issue today. Players today can contractually be paid in the 12 mil area per year which as a percentage of the cap becomes a problem with a cap in the80 mil range. This compounds in a period where a team has success when a teams core eats up more than 50% of the cap it is difficult to ice cup competing teams . The Cup is difficult to win and the cap was put in to stop dynasty and it has done that. How happy would the fan base be if it were half a century without winning a cup? Or even being in the finals for that amount of time.

We follow sports for entertainment and occasionally winning us the goal. My outlook on salary is but one way to see it. The fact of the matter is the leagues average salary is 3.5 mil does this mean a guy that makes 7 mil is twice the value of average? With a 22 man roster at any one time during the year there are about 650 players in the league. If a guy is 140th in the league in production the case can be made he is closer to an average player than a top earner. Each fan has a standard of worth and much of it is perception to what that person likes to see. Some skills are more important and some are way over inflated. Each year Cirelli fans point to his two way game to justify his cost. Ross Colton was just as skilled defensively imo so is it wrong for one to expect more production for the guy holding the 2C slot than we get from Cirelli at his price point? Value is subjective and limiting. If the Cap is 83 mil you can not ice 13 players at 6.5 per. And now days fans just expect a good player to make that. The whole point Cirelli is a nhl guy he deserves a position but at what price point. Currently most fans support that players are worth every dollar they can get in a contract and the GM’s just blindly give 5 and 6 mil contracts with no movment clauses.

 

[DFC]

While it may be true my contract is 5 to 7 years behind popular opinion it does not omit logical budgeting. And it is possible to have a perfect storm of having a roster loaded as the lots did the year before the back to back started and lasting a couple years. We benifited from young superstars in their early years cost controlled and some veterans on dirt cheap contracts like Shattenkirk and Coleman. The aftermath of success hamstrings teams teams typically for 5 to 10 years. Look at the Devils and the Blackhawks for example, the Lightning are on the same path both of those teams continue to suffer thru. Those teams are difficult to watch now and it has been what 10 years or so since they peaked. Consider the last half of Towes and Sharp’s careers slogging thru years of inability to be competitive, well yes they had those fat contracts that paid for the pain endured.

The underlying cause is in contracts and the league not meeting the cap increases envisioned when they put cap in the CBA. The league projected back then that by 2015 the cap would be 121 million and they placed a maximum individual player contract by percentage. If the Cap had even come close to Bettmans predictions from way back then 6.5 mil would not be an issue today. Players today can contractually be paid in the 12 mil area per year which as a percentage of the cap becomes a problem with a cap in the80 mil range. This compounds in a period where a team has success when a teams core eats up more than 50% of the cap it is difficult to ice cup competing teams . The Cup is difficult to win and the cap was put in to stop dynasty and it has done that. How happy would the fan base be if it were half a century without winning a cup? Or even being in the finals for that amount of time.

We follow sports for entertainment and occasionally winning us the goal. My outlook on salary is but one way to see it. The fact of the matter is the leagues average salary is 3.5 mil does this mean a guy that makes 7 mil is twice the value of average? With a 22 man roster at any one time during the year there are about 650 players in the league. If a guy is 140th in the league in production the case can be made he is closer to an average player than a top earner. Each fan has a standard of worth and much of it is perception to what that person likes to see. Some skills are more important and some are way over inflated. Each year Cirelli fans point to his two way game to justify his cost. Ross Colton was just as skilled defensively imo so is it wrong for one to expect more production for the guy holding the 2C slot than we get from Cirelli at his price point? Value is subjective and limiting. If the Cap is 83 mil you can not ice 13 players at 6.5 per. And now days fans just expect a good player to make that. The whole point Cirelli is a nhl guy he deserves a position but at what price point. Currently most fans support that players are worth every dollar they can get in a contract and the GM’s just blindly give 5 and 6 mil contracts with no movment clauses.

It's not about what they're worth. It's about what GMs around the league are giving to players of similar caliber. Those same GMs would jump at Anthong Cirelli and his contract.

Not even saying we should trade him. Just saying it's crazy to assert that his value is negative around the league.