2023-2024 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread

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I'm happy with Dvorsky, I think there would've been some debate if Leonard was an option. I think many of us thought Blais, Vrana, and Kap could've brought some 2nd-4th round picks, but I'm not even sure they'd be claimed on waivers.
To be fair, none of them would probably clear waivers right now because there's a premium on cap space and contract spots. No one is adding to either without subtracting from what they have. Even so, Kapanen at $3.2M and Vrana at $1.475M are way too expensive and even at 50% neither one gives any real value for what they've done this season. Blais is $1M which isn't a lot, but does anything he's done this season scream "he can make your playoff-contending team better?" Does he add anything at 50% off that you can't just add from within?

If all of them were playing at a level where they could bring a 2nd-4th, this team would be in the mix with Colorado, Dallas and Winnipeg and we wouldn't be thinking about trading any of them ... but they're not, so we're not, so we'd like to but there's no value there.
 

Brian39

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And based off of the 2024 Draft behind the scenes video the Blues released, there was a line in there about moving down to 13 if both Leonard and Dvorsky were gone. Leonard was mentioned first so that makes me think they had Leonard ranked higher than Dvorsky. Pure conjecture on my part? Yeah, pretty much but it’s logical that if there’s 2 guys on your list and you mention both, you’d probably subconsciously say the names in the order you have them ranked.

So Brian makes a good point in that Vrana, Blais and Kapanen doing well to finish out last season likely didn’t cost us too many draft spots…but IMO, it did likely cost us Leonard. And while I like Dvorsky, I like Leonard a tad more. Safer bet as he doesn’t have Dvorsky’s skating issues and his compete level is sky high.
Totally fair. I won't argue about Leonard potentially being ranked higher or viewing him as a bit of a safer bet. I forgot that they mentioned them together in a tier.

However, Cs are always more sought after than Ws and I think that center was a position of greater organizational need within our prospect pool going into that draft. Our #1 prospect entering the draft was a right handed RW, which is exactly what Leonard is. I could very much see them liking Leonard's skills/projection/floor a bit more than Dvorsky but believing that Dvorksy's projection as an NHL center erased that gap.

Whether it cost us the favored player or not, I still don't have a strong preference between the two and I don't get the impression that the team viewed the difference between those two as devastating.
 

STL fan in MN

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Totally fair. I won't argue about Leonard potentially being ranked higher or viewing him as a bit of a safer bet. I forgot that they mentioned them together in a tier.

However, Cs are always more sought after than Ws and I think that center was a position of greater organizational need within our prospect pool going into that draft. Our #1 prospect entering the draft was a right handed RW, which is exactly what Leonard is. I could very much see them liking Leonard's skills/projection/floor a bit more than Dvorsky but believing that Dvorksy's projection as an NHL center erased that gap.

Whether it cost us the favored player or not, I still don't have a strong preference between the two and I don't get the impression that the team viewed the difference between those two as devastating.
They were both in the “not moving back from 10” tier so yeah, they likely had them ranked similarly. Just re-looked at my 2023 spreadsheet and I had them 7th and 8th (in my I’m not a pro scout opinion).
 

Bye Bye Blueston

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They were both in the “not moving back from 10” tier so yeah, they likely had them ranked similarly. Just re-looked at my 2023 spreadsheet and I had them 7th and 8th (in my I’m not a pro scout opinion).
i'm not a scout either, but i had dvo 5 and leonard 7 but again in same tier. they were last 2 forwards in top (non-bedard) tier for me. time will tell who becomes better player, but on draft day i don't think picking one instead of the other was a loss.
 

TheDizee

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Need to accumulate as many picks and cap space as we can.

Also need to gut and clean up the core.

New GM and coach as well.
 

bleedblue1223

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As the twitter analytic guys are getting more sophisticated, they are finally evaluating certain players beter. This is a way better evaluation than what Dom does at TheAthletic. I disagree slightly with the right partner point, but I suppose the argument is if he's with someone that can drive offense, it would benefit him more. The challenge with that, you need someone who is also capable of playing his role, which basically means a legitimate #1 as his partner.

I think the fact that he can have Leddy paired with him, and they produce great defensive metrics is a highlight.

 
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PJJJP

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As the twitter analytic guys are getting more sophisticated, they are finally evaluating certain players beter. This is a way better evaluation than what Dom does at TheAthletic. I disagree slightly with the right partner point, but I suppose the argument is if he's with someone that can drive offense, it would benefit him more. The challenge with that, you need someone who is also capable of playing his role, which basically means a legitimate #1 as his partner.

I think the fact that he can have Leddy paired with him, and they produce great defensive metrics is a highlight.


oh wow an analytics guy who doesn't think Parayko is top 5 worse contracts in the league. Don't let dom see this lol
 

bleedblue1223

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oh wow an analytics guy who doesn't think Parayko is top 5 worse contracts in the league. Don't let dom see this lol
And you can google jfresh/parayko and see what he's said about him in the past, and previously it was of the Dom level, but this was refreshing to see.
 

Majorityof1

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JR with new article where he seemingly just discovered that we don’t have enough talent to contend. He must be super nice guy to stay employed, because he is awful journalist.

You gave him the click. You posted here and others will go give him a click to see what is so bad about it. Successful journalism is about generating clicks, not writing good stories
 

Brian39

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JR with new article where he seemingly just discovered that we don’t have enough talent to contend. He must be super nice guy to stay employed, because he is awful journalist.
I'm no JR fan, but I don't get the hate for that article. He acknowledges that the lack of talent isn't a surprise in the 2nd sentence of the article. This piece felt very much like a basic 'state of the franchise heading into the deadline' than it does a realization that the roster isn't very good. I haven't gotten the impression that JR has been writing about the team like they are contenders all season, so it isn't really a change in tone.
 

BadgersandBlues

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The JFresh card seems to match my eye test. Parayko is a very interesting player. He plays a ton of minutes, and he plays against some of the best competition in the entire league, so you always have to factor that usage into his numbers. But that card shows a lot of what I see when I watch him play.

I think his 1% EV offence is pretty well earned. He doesn't drive offense. Full stop. His overall numbers look....OK? this year, thanks to a career best shooting %. In his prior three years, he was shooting a combined 3.7%. His career shooting percentage prior to this year was 4.1%. He is currently shooting at 7.8%, almost double his career average, and well over double his average of the last three years. (Hence why he's in the 95% of Finishing) He doesn't move around in the offensive zone. He's not an aggressive pincher. He rarely does anything to throw off coverage and create seams to exploit. He doesn't find cross-ice openings for a one-timer. He doesn't hold pucks and try to beat people inside or outside. He doesn't even really walk the line with the puck when he does get it. When I watch him in the offensive zone, he basically stands at the point and if the puck happens to come to him with time he unloads a bomb, otherwise he dumps it into a corner for our forwards to go get. Personally, he's been an enormous disappointment over the last number of years on the offensive side of the puck.

Then you get to D. I think his D has some major positives, and some major negatives. I think he's a good, "Stopper," for lack of a better term. He's huge, he has a massive wingspan with his stick, he skates extremely well, and he has decently high hockey sense. He does a good job forcing players on zone entries to the outside and into making low percentage plays into areas where we (usually) have support. What he doesn't do (And I think our whole team struggles with this, and I'm not sure if it's coaching, lack of execution, etc) is stop controlled entries from occurring at the blueline, or beat an aggressive forecheck after a dump-in by either skating the puck up and out of the zone on his own, or making a good first pass under pressure. Far FAR too often I see him gallop behind the net to pick up a dump-in from Binner/Hofer, start to feel the pressure, skate towards the boards, and slam the puck off the glass. His D-zone Retrievals being very high and his Retrieval Success being very low makes a ton of sense to me - as I said before, the dude is huge and skates super well, so he gets to the spot first on dump-ins.....but then he doesn't have the ability to shake the forecheck and get the puck up and out.

People talk about how Parayko needs a different partner, and frankly, I'm not really sure. I think Leddy is the type of player Parayko needs to be effective. Not Leddy in specific, but a Leddy type player - a guy who skates well, forces chances to the outside, but then can retrieve the puck and get it out of the zone with either his legs or his stick. Parayko had his best seasons next to Jay-Bo, who is basically a rich-man's version of Nick Leddy.

I think Parayko is one of the more frustrating players on our team. He seems to have all the physical tools to be an absolutely dominant force on the ice, but he just kind of.....chooses not to be. I think he could be a solid supplementary piece on a Cup contending team, but he is very very far from being a necessary piece. I think we can build around him, but we shouldn't think of him as untouchable or a major focal point. Right now we can't move on from him due to the rest of our D being such dogshit, but if someone was offering a young, potential #1 Dman for him, I wouldn't say no. It would probably pull the plug on the "Retool," and turn it into a full on "Rebuild," and since no one is going to offer that for him, ah well.
 

STL fan in MN

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As the twitter analytic guys are getting more sophisticated, they are finally evaluating certain players beter. This is a way better evaluation than what Dom does at TheAthletic. I disagree slightly with the right partner point, but I suppose the argument is if he's with someone that can drive offense, it would benefit him more. The challenge with that, you need someone who is also capable of playing his role, which basically means a legitimate #1 as his partner.

I think the fact that he can have Leddy paired with him, and they produce great defensive metrics is a highlight.


Help me understand what Finishing WAR is measuring. I know WAR stands for Wins Above Replacement and I’m assuming this is saying he’s in the 95th percentile but I’d interpret finishing as the ability to finish plays that lead to a goal. Yet he’s also apparently in the 1st percentile in Offense (which matches my eye test). That tells me I must be misinterpreting what “Finishing” means in this context. I’ve for the most part not bothered to understand a lot of the fancy stats that have come out.

Thanks, I’ll hang up and listen.
 

bleedblue1223

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Help me understand what Finishing WAR is measuring. I know WAR stands for Wins Above Replacement and I’m assuming this is saying he’s in the 95th percentile but I’d interpret finishing as the ability to finish plays that lead to a goal. Yet he’s also apparently in the 1st percentile in Offense (which matches my eye test). That tells me I must be misinterpreting what “Finishing” means in this context. I’ve for the most part not bothered to understand a lot of the fancy stats that have come out.

Thanks, I’ll hang up and listen.
  • Wins Above Replacement Components: The top row shows the five most important components of Patrick’s WAR model:
    1. EV Off: Even strength offence. This is an estimate of how a player impacts his team’s even strength scoring chance generation (or expected goals for).
    2. EV Def: Even strength defence. This is an estimate of how a player impacts his team’s even strength scoring chance against prevention (or expected goals against).
    3. PP: Powerplay. Estimate of how a player impacts his team’s powerplay scoring chances. Player must play at least 1 minute per game on the PP to qualify.
    4. PK: Penalty kill. Estimate of how a player impacts his team’s penalty kill scoring chance suppression. Player must play at least 1 minute of PK per game to qualify.
    5. Finishing: An estimate of how a player contributes to his team through his ability to score on the shots he takes above what is expected based on the expected goal model.
 

BadgersandBlues

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Finishing is basically the ranking of, "How often do your shots go in compared to how often we think they should go in." I'm not sure how he weighs it, if he takes into account factors such as area the shots are coming from, was there a cross-ice pass before, etc - but it's basically a measure of how often you convert your chances into goals. Parayko has had an incredible shooting % this year, as I mentioned in my prior post. Hence his Finishing WAR should be quite high, b/c while he's not really generating much from an offensive perspective, he is producing goals thanks to simply beating the goalie when he has the chance.
 

Bye Bye Blueston

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I'm no JR fan, but I don't get the hate for that article. He acknowledges that the lack of talent isn't a surprise in the 2nd sentence of the article. This piece felt very much like a basic 'state of the franchise heading into the deadline' than it does a realization that the roster isn't very good. I haven't gotten the impression that JR has been writing about the team like they are contenders all season, so it isn't really a change in tone.
That’s a pretty low bar.
 

STL fan in MN

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  • Wins Above Replacement Components: The top row shows the five most important components of Patrick’s WAR model:
    1. EV Off: Even strength offence. This is an estimate of how a player impacts his team’s even strength scoring chance generation (or expected goals for).
    2. EV Def: Even strength defence. This is an estimate of how a player impacts his team’s even strength scoring chance against prevention (or expected goals against).
    3. PP: Powerplay. Estimate of how a player impacts his team’s powerplay scoring chances. Player must play at least 1 minute per game on the PP to qualify.
    4. PK: Penalty kill. Estimate of how a player impacts his team’s penalty kill scoring chance suppression. Player must play at least 1 minute of PK per game to qualify.
    5. Finishing: An estimate of how a player contributes to his team through his ability to score on the shots he takes above what is expected based on the expected goal model.
Thanks. So he generates near zero offense but the few times he does shoot, the puck goes in way more than the math says it should. So I was basically interpreting it correctly but it’s pretty illogical for someone to score so highly on finishing yet so low on overall offense. Parayko is an enigma wrapped in a puzzle.
 

bleedblue1223

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Thanks. So he generates near zero offense but the few times he does shoot, the puck goes in way more than the math says it should. So I was basically interpreting it correctly but it’s pretty illogical for someone to score so highly on finishing yet so low on overall offense. Parayko is an enigma wrapped in a puzzle.
Sort of. EV offense is meant to show chance creation. It's not quite illogical, since they are measuring 2 different things, and for defensemen, it can probably vary. Parayko not getting much time in the offensive zone probably doesn't help either, and a lot fo the chances he creates, is coming off the rush. His EV offense was a lot higher in the early portion of his career when he was getting balanced usge and Petro was getting the extreme defensive usage.

Where a lot of the analytics still lack, is a good adjustment for usage/deployment/role difficulty to put some of the numbers in proper context. Parayko as a player hasn't changed in my view. He wasn't a chance generating machine when he was younger, he was just in a role where it was easier to accumulate chances. That's not his role anymore. His role is to play defense and to transition the puck out.

 
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STL fan in MN

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Sort of. EV offense is meant to show chance creation. It's not quite illogical, since they are measuring 2 different things, and for defensemen, it can probably vary. Parayko not getting much time in the offensive zone probably doesn't help either, and a lot fo the chances he creates, is coming off the rush. His EV offense was a lot higher in the early portion of his career when he was getting balanced usge and Petro was getting the extreme defensive usage.

Where a lot of the analytics still lack, is a good adjustment for usage/deployment/role difficulty to put some of the numbers in proper context. Parayko as a player hasn't changed in my view. He wasn't a chance generating machine when he was younger, he was just in a role where it was easier to accumulate chances. That's not his role anymore. His role is to play defense and to transition the puck out.


Thanks. And you articulated perfectly why I respect fancy stats but still often take them with a grain of salt - many completely lack context. A large ingredient is missing from the secret sauce!
 
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Drubilly

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Thanks. And you articulated perfectly why I respect fancy stats but still often take them with a grain of salt - many completely lack context. A large ingredient is missing from the secret sauce!
1709241176265.gif
 
Dec 15, 2002
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As the twitter analytic guys are getting more sophisticated, they are finally evaluating certain players beter. This is a way better evaluation than what Dom does at TheAthletic. I disagree slightly with the right partner point, but I suppose the argument is if he's with someone that can drive offense, it would benefit him more. The challenge with that, you need someone who is also capable of playing his role, which basically means a legitimate #1 as his partner.

I think the fact that he can have Leddy paired with him, and they produce great defensive metrics is a highlight.
Good analytics would suggest ideas on who we should get to pair with Parayko.

Of course, good analytics would offer some explanation of why Parayko is at this level this year where he wasn't in years past and what can be done to keep him at this level going forward.
 

Stupendous Yappi

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Good analytics would suggest ideas on who we should get to pair with Parayko.

Of course, good analytics would offer some explanation of why Parayko is at this level this year where he wasn't in years past and what can be done to keep him at this level going forward.

I think the young lady in the mask may be a good defensive partner? What do the AI analytics say?

(You know, it just struck me that the weirdest thing about that photo is that players from both teams seem to be celebrating a goal together.)

Gemini NHL photo.jpg
 

Majorityof1

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Good analytics would suggest ideas on who we should get to pair with Parayko.

Of course, good analytics would offer some explanation of why Parayko is at this level this year where he wasn't in years past and what can be done to keep him at this level going forward.

in-the-princess-bride-1987-inigo-montoya-references-the-v0-ltq7abbexh4c1.jpg


Analytics describe what has happened in the past. They do not explain or suggest anything. It is merely a way to express complex data on past events more simply. Its up to the user of the analytics to extrapolate. There are no good or bad analytics. Some are more useful than others. But none are going to make lineup suggestions for who we should pair on D.
 
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