Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part II

[timorous me]

Anyone beholden to the idea that the ONLY THING that matters in hockey is winning the Cup is doomed to spending their entire life, or most of it, as a fan in misery.

When you think of it that way, certain mentalities on here make complete sense. It's just too bad that such a perspective is so vociferously thrust upon the rest of us who actually have some sense of perspective and can appreciate some of the smaller good things in the life of a fan.

 

[Pavelski2112]

Anyone beholden to the idea that the ONLY THING that matters in hockey is winning the Cup is doomed to spending their entire life, or most of it, as a fan in misery.

When you think of it that way, certain mentalities on here make complete sense. It's just too bad that such a perspective is so vociferously thrust upon the rest of us who actually have some sense of perspective and can appreciate some of the smaller good things in the life of a fan.

I mean, winning the Cup is the most important thing in the NHL, sure. But calling a guy who literally won a championship in the highest level of competition in the world a loser is bonkers.

 

[Barrie22]

Gretzky was a loser once he left messiers shadow, oh wait messier was in gretzkys shadow the entire time those 2 played in edmonton.

One of the 2 won 2 more cups after the trade happened. Guess gretzky faltered when it matters also.

 

[Sandisfan]

In the Original Six Era there were only 6 teams to beat for the Stanley Cup. As the number of teams has grown the likelyhood and chances are reduced. On average now a team could expect to win a Cup 3 times in 100 years. Growing hockey has benefits but also means that more and more teams will suffer through not getting there or getting close but never getting there.

 

[Hodge]

It's funny looking through the main board thread on the best drafts teams have had in the past 15 years and seeing that even the absolute best ones only turned out 3 players max. Meanwhile many here earnestly believe the Sharks will get 5+ NHLers from the 2020 draft.

 

[Shark in Hockeytown]

Thornton was also one of the ten greatest passers of all time. He had a good shot, but he knew what he excelled at. I don't think there's anything wrong with maximizing your strongest attributes.

I believe ON4 mentioned a few months ago that McLellan tried to get Thornton to shoot more often, but he wouldn't do it. Yes, shooting more often would have increased Thornton's assists. Because everyone knew his only three options with the puck were 1. Pass, 2. Pass, and 3. Pass, they overplayed the other players on the ice, limiting his passing options. Thornton loved setting up on the half-wall; if he had just pushed off and shot even 10-20% of the time, other teams would have to respect that which would have opened up other players. Thornton had a good wrist shot which he should have used more often.

 

[SjMilhouse]

It's funny looking through the main board thread on the best drafts teams have had in the past 15 years and seeing that even the absolute best ones only turned out 3 players max. Meanwhile many here earnestly believe the Sharks will get 5+ NHLers from the 2020 draft.

If these posters could read they'd be very upset about this post

 

[one2gamble]

I believe ON4 mentioned a few months ago that McLellan tried to get Thornton to shoot more often, but he wouldn't do it. Yes, shooting more often would have increased Thornton's assists. Because everyone knew his only three options with the puck were 1. Pass, 2. Pass, and 3. Pass, they overplayed the other players on the ice, limiting his passing options. Thornton loved setting up on the half-wall; if he had just pushed off and shot even 10-20% of the time, other teams would have to respect that which would have opened up other players. Thornton had a good wrist shot which he should have used more often.

this was very apparent in the playoffs

 

[Karl Prime]

This seems like an unfair strawman of my argument. It's not that Thornton hasn't won a cup, but that his playoff play is historically bad. Relative to his RS numbers, he has historically awful drops in production.

When you replied to me earlier you basically called Alfredsson, the Sedins, Dionne, and Stastny losers because they don't have Cups despite being on teams that were good enough to win.

103 points in 121 playoff games with the Sharks between 05-06 and 15-16 (his best years) isn't great production but it's not bad either.

 

[OrrNumber4]

When you replied to me earlier you basically called Alfredsson, the Sedins, Dionne, and Stastny losers because they don't have Cups despite being on teams that were good enough to win.

Let me amend that statement, then. None of those players are losers at life. And Alfredsson and Stastny were more-or-less fine playoff players. But yes, I think there is a lot of room to critique the playoff performances of the Sedins and Marcel Dionne; if you bring guys like that into your organization, you have to wonder if the same things that made them such playoff bums will rub off on other players.

103 points in 121 playoff games with the Sharks between 05-06 and 15-16 (his best years)

What was his RS statline during the same time? Also, take a look at +/- as well...

isn't great production but it's not bad either.

No line could better capture the Sharks's mentality under DW. Strive for greatness; don't settle for "not bad".

 

[Alaskanice]

Anyone beholden to the idea that the ONLY THING that matters in hockey is winning the Cup is doomed to spending their entire life, or most of it, as a fan in misery.

When you think of it that way, certain mentalities on here make complete sense. It's just too bad that such a perspective is so vociferously thrust upon the rest of us who actually have some sense of perspective and can appreciate some of the smaller good things in the life of a fan.

Proper.

 

[Karl Prime]

If the Sharks had the fortune of running into the Golden Knights in 15-16 like the Caps did this conversation would be entirely different. In 15-16 Thornton outproduced Crosby overall in the playoffs in the same amount of games but in the end the Pens were just the superior team. Ovechkin had all his playoff problems but then they got to the final and played an expansion team playing over their heads.

The Sharks had a history of underachieving in that decade before the Cup final run, and I'm sure a lot of you would say it was more than just Thornton not playing as well as he did in the regular season. And more to the point of the disscussion we were having about him being involved in the organization .... if he were in the front office he would have faaaaaaaaaaaar less influence on the team's build and mentality than the head coach and assistants and the GM. I hardly think it's hurting Horvat, Pettersson, Boeser, and Hughes to have the Sedins in the Canucks organization.

 

[Hodge]

So Nils Lundkvist returns a 2023 1st rounder from a team that’s far from a playoff lock. Yet I was told Bordeleau would have been an overpayment…

Also the claim that Lundkvist and Ryan Merkley are comparable prospects gets even funnier. Does anyone in their right mind believe we could trade Merkley for a 2023 1st?

 

[Cas]

you have to wonder if the same things that made them such playoff bums will rub off on other players.

I'd be extremely skeptical that this could or would be the case. I'd be shocked if there was any evidence at all to support such a hypothesis.

Of course, I don't know if Thornton would make a good coach, or even if he wants to be a coach (I'd say he would like to be, and I have no way to evaluate his potential qualities in such a role).

 

[TheBeard]

So Nils Lundkvist returns a 2023 1st rounder from a team that’s far from a playoff lock. Yet I was told Bordeleau would have been an overpayment…

Also the claim that Lundkvist and Ryan Merkley are comparable prospects gets even funnier. Does anyone in their right mind believe we could trade Merkley for a 2023 1st?

I've never seen anyone make everything about themselves as much as you. It's pretty impressive.

 

[OrrNumber4]

So Nils Lundkvist returns a 2023 1st rounder from a team that’s far from a playoff lock. Yet I was told Bordeleau would have been an overpayment…

Also the claim that Lundkvist and Ryan Merkley are comparable prospects gets even funnier. Does anyone in their right mind believe we could trade Merkley for a 2023 1st?

Let's be fair...I'm shocked Lundkvist got that much. Dallas must really believe in him.

 

[Hodge]

Let's be fair...I'm shocked Lundkvist got that much. Dallas must really believe in him.

It’s not too shocking considering the Rangers reportedly turned down offers of high 2nd round picks at the draft for him. Before last season Lundkvist was universally considered one of the top prospects in hockey.

 

[one2gamble]

Overpayment

 

[Karl Prime]

Dallas must believe Lundkvist will be their next Klingberg. 4 points in 25 games on a good offensive team is not good though. And Merkley had better AHL numbers. Dallas needs the offense though and DeBoer will probably help him.

 

[stator]

You know just because a person doesn't win a championship doesn't mean they're fundamentally useless over the course of their lives.

Yeah, but he's pretty much useless skating in the NHL at this point in his career.

Do you sign him for a standard 1-day retirement contract, do you skate him for that day, do you sign him as a 82-game retirement farewell tour? It would be interesting to hear what Jumbo tells Grier. It might be the later as Jumbo doesn't want to quit as it seems.

The problem is when Jumbo is dressed, he takes a slot from one of the young guns. That's not good in my view. So hopefully he'll skate around for a couple of games, then retire, and open that seat on the bench for a young gun.

Vlasic should waive his MNC and go down to the Cuda's for another young gun. If not, maybe he can give reason for the Sharks to terminate his contract, get signed by the Oilers for the Sharks to have a no cap-hit settlement.

 

[Gecklund]

So Nils Lundkvist returns a 2023 1st rounder from a team that’s far from a playoff lock. Yet I was told Bordeleau would have been an overpayment…

Also the claim that Lundkvist and Ryan Merkley are comparable prospects gets even funnier. Does anyone in their right mind believe we could trade Merkley for a 2023 1st?

Lol if you don’t believe that’s an overpayment.

 

[hohosaregood]

Yeah, but he's pretty much useless skating in the NHL at this point in his career.

Do you sign him for a standard 1-day retirement contract, do you skate him for that day, do you sign him as a 82-game retirement farewell tour? It would be interesting to hear what Jumbo tells Grier. It might be the later as Jumbo doesn't want to quit as it seems.

The problem is when Jumbo is dressed, he takes a slot from one of the young guns. That's not good in my view. So hopefully he'll skate around for a couple of games, then retire, and open that seat on the bench for a young gun.

Vlasic should waive his MNC and go down to the Cuda's for another young gun. If not, maybe he can give reason for the Sharks to terminate his contract, get signed by the Oilers for the Sharks to have a no cap-hit settlement.

I agree that they shouldn't sign Jumbo to play hockey but the implication of the post I responded to was that he's fundamentally unqualified to participate in hockey activities in any form from here on out because he's a loser. He could be a bad or decent coach or whatever but it's not because he didn't win a cup

 

[Groo]

Joe doesn't need to be in and around the organization due to when he was here as a player it was his team. It didn't mater if he wore the C or not. It was his locker room to command. There wasn't any accountability( I saw that as the frustration Couture would show on post game interviews) and the overt commitment to "it's a marathon approach to individual games and the season stemmed directly to his inability to stay healthy. He missed or was so hobbled during various play offs he was a detriment to the team.

Now we all know what he did overall to this team so there's no doubt he ought to be honored. But that's it

I don't see him as a positive role model moving forward

I don't put not winning a cup on anyone players shoulders
I'd be much more appt to point a finger at DW

 

[tiburon12]

Joe Thornton is the reason I became a Sharks fan, but I agree he shouldn't be part of the org beyond the meet/greet ambassador role. I don't know what coaching or other value he would bring to the org beyond being a good guy at events

 

[Anomie2029]

So Nils Lundkvist returns a 2023 1st rounder from a team that’s far from a playoff lock. Yet I was told Bordeleau would have been an overpayment…

Also the claim that Lundkvist and Ryan Merkley are comparable prospects gets even funnier. Does anyone in their right mind believe we could trade Merkley for a 2023 1st?

Do you think the conditional 1st and conditional 4th are good value? Because I think Dallas made a horrible deal.

Switch the clubs around and say the Sharks were in Dallas’ position, do you honestly believe it would have been a good deal?