Prospect Info: 2022-23 Ducks Prospects

[tomd]

Right, and my guess is that they were targeting defensemen in the second round with both of their picks, and that’s why they went with a safe forward pick. If they had picked a high risk forward that didn’t pan out, we would have walked away from that draft without a single forward from the first 3 rounds - a huge failure for a rebuilding organization.

I think passing on Tolvanen was a big mistake. My guess is that PV knew he would hurt the tank, but I have no idea if that is the case.

why are you assuming that Gaucher was a safer pick than Kulich or Snuggerud?

 

[DuckDuckGetz]

why are you assuming that Gaucher was a safer pick than Kulich or Snuggerud?

Because he's a center whose two-way game, one of the most difficult parts of the transition from juniors to the NHL, was highly touted.

Snuggerud is a wing known for his shot. Kulich was playing in the Czech league which, although is improving, is not as well known for its higher-end talent. Aside from Jiricek in the same year, the last time a player was taken from that league in the first round was 2018 - Martin Kaut, who hasn't been able to crack an NHL roster full-time.

 

[tomd]

Because he's a center whose two-way game, one of the most difficult parts of the transition from juniors to the NHL, was highly touted.

Snuggerud is a wing known for his shot. Kulich was playing in the Czech league which, although is improving, is not as well known for its higher-end talent. Aside from Jiricek in the same year, the last time a player was taken from that league in the first round was 2018 - Martin Kaut, who hasn't been able to crack an NHL roster full-time.

Things look quite a bit different a season later though, don't they?

 

[DuckDuckGetz]

Things look quite a bit different a season later though, don't they?

That’s because the safer pick is not necessarily the better player, which I have never claimed.

 

[tomd]

That’s because the safer pick is not necessarily the better player, which I have never claimed.

So I'm comforted that we took a "safe" player who looks like a low scoring 4th liner but passed on 2 players that look like absolute steals. The rebuild will take forever at this rate.

 

[DuckDuckGetz]

So I'm comforted that we took a "safe" player who looks like a low scoring 4th liner but passed on 2 players that look like absolute steals. The rebuild will take forever at this rate.

I’m sure that the comfort of users on this board was a high priority for Verbeek, Madden, and the rest of the draft team.

 

[goonsaredumb]

Things look quite a bit different a season later though, don't they?

Hindsight is 20/20, it's easy to look at what they've done this year and go "see we should've picked them" but there's a reason both of those guys went in the late 1st, it's not like we were the only team to pass on both of them, would I have picked them over Gaucher? yeah, obviously I'll go for risky over safe any day of the week but I'm not an NHL GM it's not hard to see why a team would go for a guy like Gaucher instead of them especially a team with a lack of exactly what Gaucher brings to the table.

If them doing what they've done since being drafted was such a sure thing they would've gone much earlier in the draft but they were obviously seen as riskier picks at the time, I'll also add that all 3 of them have yet to play a single NHL game, there's still a chance Snuggerud/Kulich end up not figuring it out at the NHL level, I know it's pointless arguing this with you though you've already made up your mind about Gaucher being a terrible player and shit on him at any given opportunity.

 

[tomd]

Hindsight is 20/20, it's easy to look at what they've done this year and go "see we should've picked them" but there's a reason both of those guys went in the late 1st, it's not like we were the only team to pass on both of them, would I have picked them over Gaucher? yeah, obviously I'll go for risky over safe any day of the week but I'm not an NHL GM it's not hard to see why a team would go for a guy like Gaucher instead of them especially a team with a lack of exactly what Gaucher brings to the table.

If them doing what they've done since being drafted was such a sure thing they would've gone much earlier in the draft but they were obviously seen as riskier picks at the time, I'll also add that all 3 of them have yet to play a single NHL game, there's still a chance Snuggerud/Kulich end up not figuring it out at the NHL level, I know it's pointless arguing this with you though you've already made up your mind about Gaucher being a terrible player and shit on him at any given opportunity.

Can you point to one thing that makes you optimistic about him?

 

[goonsaredumb]

Can you point to one thing that makes you optimistic about him?

Physicality, Defensive awareness, Net front presence, Underrated Offensive game that I think can be developed further, and by all accounts is extremely coachable which is a phenomenal trait for a prospect to have.

I hated the Gaucher pick when we made it but I see a lot to be optimistic about in his game

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Physicality, Defensive awareness, Net front presence, Underrated Offensive game that I think can be developed further, and by all accounts is extremely coachable which is a phenomenal trait for a prospect to have.

I hated the Gaucher pick when we made it but I see a lot to be optimistic about in his game

I'm just like you, didn't like the Gaucher pick, but he does bring size, physicality, and focuses on defense (WJC).

Still, the thought of passing up potential top-6 forwards for a bottom-6, sure thing forward is cringy. Maybe there are other factors. I know Kulich is small compared to Gaucher, but Snuggerud isn't tiny and scores. The thing wit Snuggerud is he was set on going to college and Verbeek might have shunned college prospects in the top 4 rounds b/c LaCombe and Thrun went back for their senior seasons.

Now that we're going to be getting a top-4/5 pick, the Gaucher pick is moot. Yet, imagine this year's top-4/5 pick with Snuggerud/Kulich? Both of them this year have been doing well, Snuggerud in the NCAA and Kulich in the AHL. Watching the behind the scenes for the Buffalo draft, they were hot on Kulich in the mid/late teens in trying to draft him, but no one want to trade down.

 

[goonsaredumb]

I'm just like you, didn't like the Gaucher pick, but he does bring size, physicality, and focuses on defense (WJC).

Still, the thought of passing up potential top-6 forwards for a bottom-6, sure thing forward is cringy. Maybe there are other factors. I know Kulich is small compared to Gaucher, but Snuggerud isn't tiny and scores. The thing wit Snuggerud is he was set on going to college and Verbeek might have shunned college prospects in the top 4 rounds b/c LaCombe and Thrun went back for their senior seasons.

I think with Snuggerud there was probably an element of is he only producing so well because of who he is playing with (Cooley) also his game was a lot less flashy than the other guys on his team most of which went much earlier in the draft than him, there where definitely a lot of question marks around him and how his game would translate to the NHL, I think he's put a lot of those concerns to rest this year but obviously no one had that information on draft day and I think it's understandable why he went as late as he did, honestly he could've probably gone even later.

I honestly don't really know why Kulich went as late as he did, I guess maybe the league he was playing in might of played a factor or something, I didn't really see anything concerning in his draft year personally.

 

[tomd]

I'm just like you, didn't like the Gaucher pick, but he does bring size, physicality, and focuses on defense (WJC).

Still, the thought of passing up potential top-6 forwards for a bottom-6, sure thing forward is cringy. Maybe there are other factors. I know Kulich is small compared to Gaucher, but Snuggerud isn't tiny and scores. The thing wit Snuggerud is he was set on going to college and Verbeek might have shunned college prospects in the top 4 rounds b/c LaCombe and Thrun went back for their senior seasons.

Now that we're going to be getting a top-4/5 pick, the Gaucher pick is moot. Yet, imagine this year's top-4/5 pick with Snuggerud/Kulich? Both of them this year have been doing well, Snuggerud in the NCAA and Kulich in the AHL. Watching the behind the scenes for the Buffalo draft, they were hot on Kulich in the mid/late teens in trying to draft him, but no one want to trade down.

That is exactly why the pick isn't moot.

Snuggerud was a big riser during his draft year and was generally rated above Gaucher. He just kept getting better and better with the USNDT team. Kulich was generally rated higher as well and was dominant at the U18's. PV's hard-on for size at the expense of talent goes a bit too far IMO.

Physicality, Defensive awareness, Net front presence, Underrated Offensive game that I think can be developed further, and by all accounts is extremely coachable which is a phenomenal trait for a prospect to have.

I hated the Gaucher pick when we made it but I see a lot to be optimistic about in his game

I agree with all your points except for the underrated offense. He played in the Q for 4 years and his offense flatlined in years 2-4. There is nothing underrated about it...it just doesn't exist. Which is why I compare him to Derek Grant which is a tragic outcome for a 1st round pick when there where better options on the board (and not in hindsight).

 

[goonsaredumb]

I agree with all your points except for the underrated offense. He played in the Q for 4 years and his offense flatlined in years 2-4. There is nothing underrated about it...it just doesn't exist. Which is why I compare him to Derek Grant which is a tragic outcome for a 1st round pick when there where better options on the board (and not in hindsight).

His offense improved from year 3-4, it took a slight dip in his draft year and then improved this year, his offense obviously does exist and I think he looks a lot better than Derek Grant in every area on the ice, I don't even know where the Grant comparison comes from aside from your hate boner for Gaucher

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I think with Snuggerud there was probably an element of is he only producing so well because of who he is playing with (Cooley) also his game was a lot less flashy than the other guys on his team most of which went much earlier in the draft than him, there where definitely a lot of question marks around him and how his game would translate to the NHL, I think he's put a lot of those concerns to rest this year but obviously no one had that information on draft day and I think it's understandable why he went as late as he did, honestly he could've probably gone even later.

I honestly don't really know why Kulich went as late as he did, I guess maybe the league he was playing in might of played a factor or something, I didn't really see anything concerning in his draft year personally.

I guess it depends on which scouting reports you find.

2022 myNHLdraft.com's mock had Snuggerud going 16th and Gaucher going 31st.

NHL.com's Kimelman mocked Snuggerud 19th with this description:

Jimmy Snuggerud, RW, USA U-18 (NTDP): Snuggerud (6-1, 188) was called the most improved player during his two seasons at the NTDP by his coach. He improved his skating, which allows him to get into more dangerous areas to use his shot, which is considered by scouts to be one of the best in this draft class. He's a straight-line player with a power forward game that should translate well to the pro level. ​

Kimelman had Kulich 19th and Gaucher 23rd.

NHL.com's Morreale had mocked Gaucher at 21, Snuggerud at 24, and Kulich at 29. Here's Morreale's description of Snuggerud:

Snuggerud made tremendous strides in the second half of the season. He was second on the NTDP with seven power-play goals and had a goal and a game-high seven shots on goal at the 2022 BioSteel All-American Game. His ceiling is high because all the elements are there for a long, successful NHL career. ​

What's funny is that Snuggerud fits the description that our old GM would draft, a late riser prospect. Gaucher is a Verbeek forward draftee, not a Murray. The description of Gaucher is who the player is today (high floor) and not much forecasting of a higher ceiling.

Kimelman on Gaucher: With centers Ryan O'Reilly (31) and Brayden Schenn (30) each older than 30, it might be time to start thinking of the future through the middle. Gaucher is a big, strong center who would fit well with the Blues' physical, hard-forechecking style of play.

Morreale on Gaucher: A strong right-shot center who was used in all situations, Gaucher (6-3, 207) had 57 points (31 goals, 26 assists) in 66 games. He tied for first among Quebec Major Junior Hockey League skaters with five shorthanded goals and scored five power-play goals. Gaucher is strong on face-offs and is a solid presence in front of the opposing net and was an alternate captain this season.

Verbeek preferred Gaucher. I will fully cheer on Gaucher b/c I want us to succeed.


....
just for fun...

Kimelman on Kulich: Kulich (5-11, 178) had a star turn at the World U-18s, leading the tournament with nine goals in six games and winning the most valuable player award. The tournament showcased the great speed and all-around play he displayed in Extraliga, and one scout compared him to Boston Bruins forward David Pastrnak.

Morreale on Kulich: Kulich interviewed with all 32 NHL clubs at the NHL Scouting Combine, showing how interested teams are in him. Recognized as a goal-scorer and quick on his feet, the left-handed shot was a standout at the World U-18s. He's smart and is always on the move, looking to make things happen.

It's weird reading two different descriptions on Kulich between the two when they seemed lockstep with Gaucher and Snuggerud's descriptions. Kimelman gave descriptive praise while Morreale felt like a byline.

 

[goonsaredumb]

I guess it depends on which scouting reports you find.

Speaking of scouting reports it's pretty funny how a lot of people have sort of just decided Gaucher's ceiling is a bottom-6 forward when so many of his pre-draft scouting reports talk about him having top-6 potential and a bottom-6 floor

Pronman from The Athletic: "Gaucher is a highly skilled and competitive center. He possesses a bulky 6-foot-3 frame and is a physical player, which allows him to win a lot of puck battles. Gaucher creates a lot of offense around the net due to his physical tools. He’s a responsible two-way player who can PK well. Offensively, he’s not flashy mostly due to a lack of top-end speed, but he has the hands and vision to make plays inside the offensive zone. He creates a lot around the hard areas of the ice. Gaucher projects as a top-two-line center in the NHL who won’t be a big scorer but will have significant two-way value"

Richardson from FCHockey: "If he buys in, I see Gaucher’s ceiling as a top-six forward with some potential as a second line center, although I would prefer him on the wing where he can regularly be relied on for his strong battle skills and powerful shot. Even if he doesn’t achieve the best-case scenario, Gaucher has the potential to be a bottom-six forward capable of filling a checking role and developing into a shut-down center after a few seasons."

Richard from DobberProspects: “Big two-way forward with a great scoring touch around the net. Needs to learn to utilize his physical tools more efficiently to fulfill his potential as a top-six NHL forward."

It also paints a much more positive picture of his offensive game that people think doesn't exist.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

The whole Snuggerud vs Kulich vs Gaucher debate just sounds like the whole ‘Eklund vs Mctavish’ conversation all over again to me.

Id still take Gaucher over the other two.


By the way, did anyone catch this? I tried to look for Sams prospect page, but couldn’t find it:

"

 

[Gliff]

The whole Snuggerud vs Kulich vs Gaucher debate just sounds like the whole ‘Eklund vs Mctavish’ conversation all over again to me.

Id still take Gaucher over the other two.


By the way, did anyone catch this? I tried to look for Sams prospect page, but couldn’t find it:

"

I agree it is similar in the sense that we took the guy that was a better 2-way player and appeared to have less upside over the guy who was riskier, but how in God's green earth are you stubborn enough to not see Gaucher was not the right pick? Gaucher was barely PPG in the QMJHL while Snuggerud was top 5 in points in the NCAA as a freshman.

By the way, Gaucher is one of the oldest players in his draft year while Snuggerud is 8 months younger.

Hopefully that can be a fresh start for Sam. So far he looks like the worst pick the Ducks have made in the top 3 rounds in the last 4 years.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Speaking of scouting reports it's pretty funny how a lot of people have sort of just decided Gaucher's ceiling is a bottom-6 forward when so many of his pre-draft scouting reports talk about him having top-6 potential and a bottom-6 floor

Pronman from The Athletic: "Gaucher is a highly skilled and competitive center. He possesses a bulky 6-foot-3 frame and is a physical player, which allows him to win a lot of puck battles. Gaucher creates a lot of offense around the net due to his physical tools. He’s a responsible two-way player who can PK well. Offensively, he’s not flashy mostly due to a lack of top-end speed, but he has the hands and vision to make plays inside the offensive zone. He creates a lot around the hard areas of the ice. Gaucher projects as a top-two-line center in the NHL who won’t be a big scorer but will have significant two-way value"

Richardson from FCHockey: "If he buys in, I see Gaucher’s ceiling as a top-six forward with some potential as a second line center, although I would prefer him on the wing where he can regularly be relied on for his strong battle skills and powerful shot. Even if he doesn’t achieve the best-case scenario, Gaucher has the potential to be a bottom-six forward capable of filling a checking role and developing into a shut-down center after a few seasons."

Richard from DobberProspects: “Big two-way forward with a great scoring touch around the net. Needs to learn to utilize his physical tools more efficiently to fulfill his potential as a top-six NHL forward."

It also paints a much more positive picture of his offensive game that people think doesn't exist.

Gaucher's scouting profile still translates to "high floor, low ceiling". Pronman's description doesn't make any sense: " Gaucher projects as a top-two-line center in the NHL who won’t be a big scorer but will have significant two-way value." That's a description of a 3C. I compare Gaucher to Lundy, as both were considered safe picks, but Lundy has the speed and agility that Gaucher doesn't. OTOH, Gaucher's got that size and tenacity. Mix them both together and you get Max Jones type, except Jones plays wing.

All three play in different leagues, which makes it difficult to compare apples to apples. Although, only one of them is playing against men in their draft year (D+0), who is Kulich. When we go to international play such as the WJC-18 and WJC-20, we can get a gauge of apples to apples in similar talent level competition. This is where we see a difference in scoring. Because Gaucher is too old for the WJC-18, he participates at the WJC-20. Kulich is young enough to be in the WJC-18 and talented enough to be in the WJC-20. Snuggerud only participated in the WJC-18.

D+0 int'l
Gaucher, WJC-20: 7 games, 2 pts, +0 rating
Kulich, WJC-20: 7 games, 8 pts, +5 rating
............, WJC-18: 6 games, 11 pts, -6 rating ... Captain of team
Snuggerud, WJC-18: 6 games, 7 pts, +4 rating

Our draft style for 2022 is odd in our first four rounds. Defensively, we went upside with Minty, Warren, and Luneau. At forward, we went high floor, low ceiling safer picks in C Gaucher and overager C Ben King.

A year later, we see that scoring rate continue to at a high rate and at a higher level of competition for both Snuggerud and Kulich. Snuggerud is the 5th best scorer in the NCAA with 50 pts in 38 games. Kulich is 10th in the AHL in scoring as a rookie and 1st in the AHL in scoring for under 19-years of age with 43 points in 57 games.

D+1 int'l
Gaucher, WJC-20: 7 games, 4 pts, +1 rating
Kulich, WJC-20: 7 games, 9 pts, +10 rating... assistant Captain
Snuggerud, WJC-20: 7 games, 13 pts, +5 rating

Verbeek's got a vision for this team into the future. While the current NHL club doesn't possess a lot of physical players, the future of the Ducks will with Gaucher and the the slew of bigger prospects he's acquiring as the season ends for the CHL and NCAA.

That mentality of getting bigger with tenacity is probably the reason why Verbeek kept 6'5 RW Brett Leason over picking up the smaller, scoring RW Tolvanen, who's 5'10. The scary part is that Tolvanen has more NHL traction/history as well as scoring than Leason, but Verbeek still chose to pass him up in December waivers.

I accept Gaucher and love his Ducks' rookie tourney tenacity, but when you conflate the decision of Gaucher vs Snuggerud vs Kulich with Leason vs Tolvanen, then the thought process for the team brings more skepticism. With our second 2nd round pick, I was hoping for the team to grab a long project, top-6 scoring potential in 6'2 C Lorenz to keep a balanced draft, but we went with sliding D Luneau. Now, I'm grateful for going with Luneau b/c we probably would have went after another safer forward.

I'm more intrigued to see our 2022 5th rounder Hvidston's scoring progression compared to Gaucher's. Hvidston is a Sept baby who's scoring rate is better than Gaucher's this season. Both are more known for their defense than offense going into the draft.

D+1 CHL
Gaucher, QMJHL: 44 games, 46 points, and +35 rating
Hvidston, WHL: 59 games, 65 points, and +15 rating

 

[Hockey Duckie]

The whole Snuggerud vs Kulich vs Gaucher debate just sounds like the whole ‘Eklund vs Mctavish’ conversation all over again to me.

Id still take Gaucher over the other two.

No. This is nowhere near close to "Eklund vs McTavish", where the discussion was about ceiling heights in potential at the #3 spot. Some didn't believe in McTavish's potential at all. This "Gaucher vs Snuggerud and Kulich" is a discussion of two-way play projectability at the NHL level vs top-6 scoring potential at the NHL level late in the first round. This is a difference in preference of play, not talent level.

This "Gaucher vs Snuggerud and Kulich" conversation should be parallel to the "Leason vs Tolvanen" discussion. Would you still take Leason over Tolvanen?

 

[Rasp]

The way I look at it with Gaucher is that its about building a team that can win the cup. We dont have any players like Gaucher and you generally need to grab them late in the 1st round which we did. Sure there are other players with high upside but there are always players with high upside.

In the small bits I'v seen of Gaucher he is the type of guy you want in your team when it comes to playoffs.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

This "Gaucher vs Snuggerud and Kulich" conversation should be parallel to the "Leason vs Tolvanen" discussion. Would you still take Leason over Tolvanen?

I’m going to choose my words carefully here. I don’t see Gaucher being an offensive dynamo, yes. But I do see him slotting anywhere up and down the lineup, PP possibly, maybe PK. Similar to how Kesler was. I’m not saying he will turn into RK - but the potential is there to be something like that.

I would go as far as saying he is the most ‘physical’ top end prospect we have. He’s not shy in getting to dirty areas

I always advocated for Tolvanen. Leason doesn’t do enough to warrant more playing time (judging by reading GDT)

 

[Anarchynate]

I’m going to choose my words carefully here. I don’t see Gaucher being an offensive dynamo, yes. But I do see him slotting anywhere up and down the lineup, PP possibly, maybe PK. Similar to how Kesler was. I’m not saying he will turn into RK - but the potential is there to be something like that.

I would go as far as saying he is the most ‘physical’ top end prospect we have. He’s not shy in getting to dirty areas

I always advocated for Tolvanen. Leason doesn’t do enough to warrant more playing time (judging by reading GDT)

Let’s hope he brings some grit cuz someone is going to need to protect Z and Bedard lol imagine those two hooking up for an insane goal. What antics they would do to the other teams bench would be glorious

 

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Can we make a non-duck prospect thread….

These Kulich/snuggard posts are more obnoxious than the lindholm conversations that are constantly moved to the former ducks thread.

I come to this thread to read updates and opinions on our own prospects

 

[wesott11]

Can we make a non-duck prospect thread….

These Kulich/snuggard posts are more obnoxious than the lindholm conversations that are constantly moved to the former ducks thread.

I come to this thread to read updates and opinions on our own prospects

Agreed

 

[lwvs84]

I'm still hoping Gaucher can play a poor man's Kunitz roll. Basically be a really good 3rd wheel for two smaller, more skilled forwards (like Z/Terry). If he can provide some offense, be a net front guy, be solid defensively, add physicality, and go to the dirty areas/board battle, that could free up Z-Terry to be an elite 2nd line behind McTavish/Bedard