2022-2023 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread

[Brian39]

This is why I'm not really sure if a re-anything is going to matter much. The D core is locked in for a LONG time, they are the clear and obvious weak spot on this team, and we have absolutely no high ceiling D prospects projected to make an impact in the next half decade. Now all that could change in a TDL or draft, but man, I'm just not seeing it.

We have two guys who are pretty good (albeit with warts) on the right side, but both can leave you wanting for more at times and neither has proven to carry a partner the way a true #1/Elite guy can. We have a solid and serviceable Top-4 guy in Leddy, and a total dumpster fire in Krug. Clearly moving on from and upgrading Krug would be the most obvious path to getting back on track from a competitive perspective, but his contract is terrible. We're going to have to burn assets getting rid of him, then we're going to have to hope we find a ROR type trade for some other LHD, which is going to burn a ton more assets.

It's not an insurmountable problem, but the type of guy we need just doesn't come around very often, either in a draft or via trade. In-fact, if we really want to get anything out of the "new core," of Thomas/Kyrou/Buch/top 3 forward prospects, we're going to need to make a trade. Assuming we draft a superstar level defenseman this year, it's still going to take 3-4 years for them to come in and make the type of impact we will need to make it back into a Cup conversation. That's almost half of Thomas/Kyrou's current extension, and basically the end of Buch's contract.

TLDR - if we're serious about competing for a Cup after this year (in the near term), we need to make some serious changes on D, even if the cost hurts.

I get what you are saying and shedding contracts along the way in a 2-4 re-whatever plan would be the goal. But I don't think that the D contracts make any type of re-whatever impossible.

Any re-whatever is going to result in a lot of cheap talent joining the roster in the next 3-4 years. Snuggy, Bolduc, and any player drafted in 2023 will be on their ELC until at least the summer of 2026. Neighbours has 2 more years on his ELC and will not have arbitration rights when he does so he can be strong-armed into one of Army's 2 year "you will take a multi-million dollar discount and like it" bridge deals. That would have him getting his payout contract in the summer of 2027.

Leddy and Saad are off the books by the summer of 2026. Binner, Faulk, and Krug will have 1 year left by the summer of 2026 and would have fairly favorable buyout terms by then (cap hit cut in half or better for 2026/27 and then $1.5M-$2M hits in 2027/28). And on top of that we should see a cap that is $10M-$15M higher by 2026/27 than it is today.

The nature of a re-whatever will bring in a lot of cheap talent in the 2-3 years where these contracts are most restrictive to our ability to pay people. By the time that talent needs to be paid accordingly, these contracts will be expired, moved, bought out and/or not as significant due to the cap increasing.

We're going to have to hit on some prospects, especially on the back end. That is true of any re-whatever. But we are in okay shape to let them develop alongside (and ultimately surpass) our overpaid vets. I don't think we should pay assets to move contracts. For me, the focus is exclusively on figuring out how to acquire the players needed. If moving the D contracts is part of that then go for it. If not, then I think you let them be overpaid development partners for the young D you bring in.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

There could be a lot of reasons. We don't know them. We do know that he clearly wanted an NMC, and he got it and we don't give those because we don't want the team to become bad. So regardless if Lindholm ever had to think about additional reasons, he had an up front dealbreaker. You don't have to wait for hockey "journalists" to report the nose in front of one's face. It was reported he selected Boston because he wanted to extend with them because of the contract they put on the table.

Just because he got one doesn't mean he was dead set on one. Boston is much more open to them and could have been offered before Lindholm even asked for one. This feels more like the Taylor Hall thing where he was dead set on going to Boston.

 

[PocketNines]

Just because he got one doesn't mean he was dead set on one. Boston is much more open to them and could have been offered before Lindholm even asked for one. This feels more like the Taylor Hall thing where he was dead set on going to Boston.

True, he might have not wanted an NMC even though he wanted one.

But since it's such self-serving denialism I'm personally not going to do it.

 

[Brian39]

Just because he got one doesn't mean he was dead set on one. Boston is much more open to them and could have been offered before Lindholm even asked for one. This feels more like the Taylor Hall thing where he was dead set on going to Boston.

Whether he asked for a NMC is losing the forest for the trees. Players don't want a NMC to say that they have a NMC. A NMC is the contractual assurance that you will remain in the place you want to be in. Any player looking to leave money on the table in order to prioritize the culture/reputation/location of a franchise wants a NMC to ensure that they remain with that franchise.

Lindholm was pretty clear that he left money on the table to go to Boston. Top end players with UFA leverage generally only do that when they are assured that they can't be moved. We don't know how much Lindholm preferred Boston over other destinations, but we do know that an unwillingness to offer a UFA meant that we weren't in position to sell our organizational culture as effectively as Boston was.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Whether he asked for a NMC is losing the forest for the trees. Players don't want a NMC to say that they have a NMC. A NMC is the contractual assurance that you will remain in the place you want to be in. Any player looking to leave money on the table in order to prioritize the culture/reputation/location of a franchise wants a NMC to ensure that they remain with that franchise.

Lindholm was pretty clear that he left money on the table to go to Boston. Top end players with UFA leverage generally only do that when they are assured that they can't be moved. We don't know how much Lindholm preferred Boston over other destinations, but we do know that an unwillingness to offer a UFA meant that we weren't in position to sell our organizational culture as effectively as Boston was.

Only thing I was trying to say was that the location might have meant more than the NMC.

 

[shpongle falls]

That last game against the Preds Toropchenko looked like a new man, hope he can keep it going.

Also i wonder why Rosen keeps getting scratched, he’s a better 3rd pair option than Mikkola at this point imo.

 

[Xerloris]

Was it reported anywhere that the NMC had anything to do with Lindholm's decision in relation to St. Louis? Haven't seen any, but it seems like there could be a lot reasons why he might not have had interest in signing here.

Ofcourse not but you know what they say. Whiners gonna whine.

 

[PocketNines]

Of course it was reported Lindholm asked for an NMC and got one.

Of course it's been reported Doug Armstrong does not give those.

Goons gonna goon

 

[ChicagoBlues]

That last game against the Preds Toropchenko looked like a new man, hope he can keep it going.

He got plenty of extra rehab and strengthening on that shoulder.

 

[542365]

After the Buffalo game the Blues have a really tough stretch. Every team they play in the next nine games currently has a better record than the Blues with the exception of Florida who have a similar record but glowing underlying numbers. Good chance to see what they’re made of.

The Blues went 2-6-1 in that stretch. They’re made of shit.

 

[AjaxManifesto]

I don't expect much going forward.

Highly paid players are focused on staying healthy for the TDL

Lower paid players are thinking "Why should I bust my ass if the guys making 5x what I'm making per shift are coasting?"

Toxic

 

[Frenzy31]

Of course it was reported Lindholm asked for an NMC and got one.

Of course it's been reported Doug Armstrong does not give those.

Goons gonna goon

And we know for sure he was willing to come to St. Louis?

Boston is similar to St. Louis in team quality and ownership. But the travel is a heck of a lot better out East. I think that is a a huge positive for UFAs - not the biggest thing, but it is something many consider.

 

[PocketNines]

And we know for sure he was willing to come to St. Louis?

Boston is similar to St. Louis in team quality and ownership. But the travel is a heck of a lot better out East. I think that is a a huge positive for UFAs - not the biggest thing, but it is something many consider.

The Blues are the most successful team in NHL history at making the playoffs. Lindholm openly talked about wanting location security with a team that routinely makes the playoffs. He said that although he really had no relationship to Boston, their franchise prioritized winning and his gut was willing to jump into a perennial playoff team that gave him an NMC with both feet. Obviously Boston is different than the Blues who don't give out NMCs and he undebatably wanted one. He made no mention of travel ease when he spoke about why he picked Boston so the inferences are for you to overcome rather than for me to overcome.

 

[Reality Czech]

And we know for sure he was willing to come to St. Louis?

Boston is similar to St. Louis in team quality and ownership. But the travel is a heck of a lot better out East. I think that is a a huge positive for UFAs - not the biggest thing, but it is something many consider.

Anyone complaining about not getting Lindholm is clearly either trolling or doesn't understand how the NHL works. So many bitter, unrealistic Blues fans these days.

 

[Blueline2757]

Pretty scathing

 

[ChicagoBlues]

Pretty scathing

Can you please, if you have the time, post a few relevant quotes?

I appreciate it in advance.

 

[ezcreepin]

I'm assuming if we continue to be meddling that we will sell off our UFA's this season, BUT in the event Tarasenko decides to stay and we offer him a contract, what do you think the odds of him hitting 500 goals are? If it weren't for his shoulder issues, he'd be well over 300 goals at this point, and I COULD see him playing another 6 to 7 seasons. Let's say he only scores 20 goals this year which leaves him with 228 goals to hit 500. He'd have to score at 33 goals a year for 7 more years. Do you think he could do it here? What about anywhere else?

 

[Frenzy31]

Pretty scathing

Oh look. An article by JR, Blues insider. Still waiting on the Tarasenko trade from last year. And what is a 12 man Stanley Cup check list?

 

[tfriede2]

I'm assuming if we continue to be meddling that we will sell off our UFA's this season, BUT in the event Tarasenko decides to stay and we offer him a contract, what do you think the odds of him hitting 500 goals are? If it weren't for his shoulder issues, he'd be well over 300 goals at this point, and I COULD see him playing another 6 to 7 seasons. Let's say he only scores 20 goals this year which leaves him with 228 goals to hit 500. He'd have to score at 33 goals a year for 7 more years. Do you think he could do it here? What about anywhere else?

No chance (not literally, I’d say very low) that he does it here or anywhere.

 

[joe galiba]

Oh look. An article by JR, Blues insider. Still waiting on the Tarasenko trade from last year. And what is a 12 man Stanley Cup check list?

cup checks suck if you forget yours

 

[Brian39]

Can you please, if you have the time, post a few relevant quotes?

I appreciate it in advance.

Nothing revelatory for anyone who is here regularly. It is a year-by-year breakdown of losses/additions to the lineup, including how our roster that year stacks up against a (somewhat) arbitrary "checklist" of things most Cup winners have/need. I'd say that this quote summarizes the gist of the article:

"It’s clear that the Blues lost a lot of experience and character. Some of that was unforeseen with the career-ending injuries of Bouwmeester and Steen...But some of it is self-inflicted, including the Pietrangelo situation. Sure there’s blame on both sides when a no-brainer extension can’t get done, but the inability to get it done from the Blues’ perspective set off a series of moves that had Armstrong chasing solutions."

To me, it reads very much like an "I told you so" from those of us who viewed the Petro negotiations as a gigantic blunder. I don't recall any past JR article as critical of Army. I don't agree with everything JR writes in this piece, but it is a good, fair read.

I do have a big issue with his take toward the end that the vets are still more reliable than Thomas and Kyrou. I don't think there is a reasonable argument that ROR, Tarasenko, and/or Schenn have been more reliable than either of Thomas or Kyrou. There is a long, unclear discussion about whether Thomas/Kyrou are or will be good enough to build a contender around, but they have absolutely surpassed the veterans on this team right now.

 

[bleedblue1223]

I do have a big issue with his take toward the end that the vets are still more reliable than Thomas and Kyrou. I don't think there is a reasonable argument that ROR, Tarasenko, and/or Schenn have been more reliable than either of Thomas or Kyrou. There is a long, unclear discussion about whether Thomas/Kyrou are or will be good enough to build a contender around, but they have absolutely surpassed the veterans on this team right now.

Yep, Kyrou has 23 points in his last 20 games and a -3 in that period. Thomas has been a consistent contributor all season, on pace for another 70+ point season. Now can they lead a contending team? Who knows, but they are proving that they are the best forwards along with Buchnevich and worth the deals they signed.

 

[joe galiba]

Yep, Kyrou has 23 points in his last 20 games and a -3 in that period. Thomas has been a consistent contributor all season, on pace for another 70+ point season. Now can they lead a contending team? Who knows, but they are proving that they are the best forwards and worth the deals they signed.

And he had, or set up, a ton of great chances early in the year that did not get finished, he could easily have another 15 points this season
the whole teams weird inability to finish wide open, tap in, and completely uncontested chances this year is something else

 

[ChicagoBlues]

Nothing revelatory for anyone who is here regularly. It is a year-by-year breakdown of losses/additions to the lineup, including how our roster that year stacks up against a (somewhat) arbitrary "checklist" of things most Cup winners have/need. I'd say that this quote summarizes the gist of the article:

"It’s clear that the Blues lost a lot of experience and character. Some of that was unforeseen with the career-ending injuries of Bouwmeester and Steen...But some of it is self-inflicted, including the Pietrangelo situation. Sure there’s blame on both sides when a no-brainer extension can’t get done, but the inability to get it done from the Blues’ perspective set off a series of moves that had Armstrong chasing solutions."

To me, it reads very much like an "I told you so" from those of us who viewed the Petro negotiations as a gigantic blunder. I don't recall any past JR article as critical of Army. I don't agree with everything JR writes in this piece, but it is a good, fair read.

I do have a big issue with his take toward the end that the vets are still more reliable than Thomas and Kyrou. I don't think there is a reasonable argument that ROR, Tarasenko, and/or Schenn have been more reliable than either of Thomas or Kyrou. There is a long, unclear discussion about whether Thomas/Kyrou are or will be good enough to build a contender around, but they have absolutely surpassed the veterans on this team right now.

Anyone can write an article with hindsight and spin it to create a narrative for whatever purpose. It's super weak, but that's cool. Whatever.

If he's arguing that the vets are more reliable than RT and JK, then I can't seriously take the article for anything more than doing what is necessary to make money and help drive traffic to the site.

RT and JK are our two top point producers this season and were two of the top four last season. They are earning their upcoming contracts, so far.

JR is "on his own" now and away from the warm bubble of the STL PD, so he needs clicks to make money. I'm guessing he has a base salary with article fees (or whatever they're called) and some sort of remuneration for clicks. So, more power to him. Make that money, JR, but I'll remain unsubscribed.

Thank you for posting the gist of the article.

EDIT: RT has only 42 shots so far this season, but, pro-rated, is close to his total SOG from last season. He's on pace for 118 SOG this season and had 115 last season.

 

[BadgersandBlues]

Yea I bailed from the Athletic when they started putting ads on it. I'm not paying for a sub service with adds. That's cancer as shit.