2022-2023 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread

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Bluesnatic27

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Aug 5, 2011
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Crazy, based on nothing, useless opinion ....

The contracts to Thomas and Kyrou ruined this team. Hate these long-term contracts to young, unproven guys.

Everyone thinks they are playing as hard as they can and giving it their all.

But hey - these two are set for life. Why bother?

Tarasenko, O'Reilly, others who've put in years - what about us?

Lesser guys - let the big contact ones do the work.

A big mess.
Tarasenko received his current contract about the same time in his career as Kyrou and Thomas just did. Calling them “un-proven” and saying Tarasenko “put in the work” doesn’t really add up. In fact, both Kyrou and Thomas have played in more NHL games than Tarasenko when receiving their contracts. And when Buffalo gave O’Reilly his current contract, almost every fanbase unanimously agreed that Buffalo overpaid given the output he had at the time. It’s only until after O’Reilly played a season in Buffalo that fans started to lessen up their view of the contract.

I understand you’re frustrated, but blaming Thomas an Kyrou is becoming way too convenient an excuse at this point.
 

joe galiba

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Apr 16, 2020
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the thing is, we have been creating lots of scoring chances, we just are not finishing
I cannot remember seeing so many open nets where we completely missed, lots of good set ups where we don't even hit the goalie in the gut, we just completely miss
it is like watching professional soccer where they shoot the ball 20 feet over the goal on 95% of their shots

my concern is the easy goals given up with a defender standing right there
 
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Punished ROR

a hero denied by hortons
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And when Buffalo gave O’Reilly his current contract, almost every fanbase unanimously agreed that Buffalo overpaid given the output he had at the time. It’s only until after O’Reilly played a season in Buffalo that fans started to lessen up their view of the contract.
Not disagreeing with your larger point, but the ROR comparison doesn’t really work because so many fanbases were unaware of how good he actually was. “Overpaid given the output” kind of gives it away—if you’re looking at his stat line, yeah, the contract seemed like an overpayment. But people who watched him every night saw the strong two-way play he brought every night and knew he was worth it.

Playing in the EC made the average hockey fan more aware of how good he really is and that “overpaid” sentiment disappeared. Heck, even after the Buffalo trade, I remember Blues fans being shocked at realizing how good ROR was night in and night out.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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Tarasenko received his current contract about the same time in his career as Kyrou and Thomas just did. Calling them “un-proven” and saying Tarasenko “put in the work” doesn’t really add up. In fact, both Kyrou and Thomas have played in more NHL games than Tarasenko when receiving their contracts. And when Buffalo gave O’Reilly his current contract, almost every fanbase unanimously agreed that Buffalo overpaid given the output he had at the time. It’s only until after O’Reilly played a season in Buffalo that fans started to lessen up their view of the contract.

I understand you’re frustrated, but blaming Thomas an Kyrou is becoming way too convenient an excuse at this point.
Numbers to back up your point:

Tarasenko got his $7.5M x 8 year deal following his ELC and the AAV was 10.5% of the cap when he signed it. The contract started immediately. The contract purchased 4 RFA years and 4 UFA years. He was coming off his age 23 season where he scored 73 points in 77 games (37 of which were goals). The prior season, he scored 21 goals and 43 points in 64 games, which is a 27 goal and 55 point pace. He scored at a 17 goal and 41 point pace during his rookie season. He had already proven himself to be a playoff performer with 10 goals and 1 assist in 13 playoff games (albeit as a minus player).

Kyrou got his $8.125M x 8 year deal halfway through a 2 year bridge deal and the AAV is 9.85% of the cap when he signed. The contract doesn't start for another year, so assuming minimum cap growth, his AAV will be 9.73% of the cap in year 1 of the deal (and lower if we get the multi-million cap jump Bettman talked about). The contract purchased 2 RFA years and 6 UFA years. He was coming off a season in which he had 75 points in 74 games, 27 of which were goals. The prior season, he had 14 goals and 35 points in 55 games, which is a 21 goal and 52 point pace. In his prior two seasons, he couldn't stick in the NHL and had a combined 12 points over 44 NHL games. He had 58 points in 63 AHL games in that stretch. Kyrou was a no-show in the 2020/21 playoffs (along with the entire team) but produced about as expected in 2021/22 with 7 goals and 9 points in 12 games (albeit as a minus player).

Tarasenko and Kyrou had remarkably similar development paths at the NHL level (after very different paths to the NHL). I think it is fair to say that Tarasenko had proven himself to be more valuable, but his contract reflects that. $7.5M was a noticeably bigger percentage of the cap at the outset of the contract than Kyrou's is. The cap percentage Tarasenko got would be $8.7675M against the 2023/24 cap if it is the minimum $83.5M. And that doesn't factor in the fact that teams are expecting much more rapid cap growth in the first 3 years of Kyrou's deal than they were in the first 3 years of Tarasenko's deal. Tarasenko's contract also purchased 2 fewer valuable UFA years.

Thomas had a much less linear path to his breakout season last year. He started his NHL career a couple years earlier than Tarasenko/Thomas. His rookie and sophomore seasons were pretty comparable to Tarasenko's, although obviously much more weighed towards assists than goals. He played at a 39 point pace his rookie year and a 52 point pace in year #2. Then the final year on his ELC was a disaster where he missed 49 games and only paced for 30 points. That led to a 2 year bridge deal and he exploded with 77 points in 72 games. His contract terms are identical to Kyrou's, but he is a couple years younger than Tarasenko/Kyrou were at signing (despite having more NHL seasons and games played under his belt). He is also a center.

It is harder to compare Thomas and Tarasenko's contraacts since they have very different paths, play different positions and incredibly different roles. But I don't think you can say that Tarasenko had proven demonstrably more.

I don't think there is any merit to an idea that Tarasenko and ROR look at these two deals and feel left out. And if they do, that is something that overwhelmingly causes me to think, 'well don't let the door hit you on the way out.' Tarasenko signed the richest contract in Blues history following his ELC and single breakout season. He also switched agents in order to orchestrate a public trade request last summer. Early in his career, ROR had a lengthy contract dispute with the Avalanche that led to him signing an offer sheet with another team 5 weeks after the start of the lockout shortened NHL season. He filed for arbitration after that deal and ultimately his relationship with Colorado got contentious enough that he was traded. He signed a 7 year extension with Buffalo before playing a game for them and demanded that $45.5M of the of the $52.5M be paid as signing bonuses. Both of them did everything they could to maximize their own earnings early in their careers and have aggressively looked out for their own interests. That is not a criticism. Every player should. But they absolutely understand how the business works and jealousy/animosity toward the younger generation of teammates doing the same thing as them isn't the type of attitude I want in my locker room.
 
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Snubbed4Vezina

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Jul 9, 2022
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This is a valuable post. Whether it is accurate or not is irrelevant or important. What is important is that this post has value.

My stance across a few posts is that there is a rift between ROR and Kyrou. Whether that is accurate or not is not what is most important. What is important is the position that this is a possible explanation of our slump.

It's not like we were lighting it up 5v5. Most our goals were scored 5v5, but, as noted, we had a long streak of not scoring any 5v5 goals.

I'm glad ROR and Kyrou are split up. It needed to happen. Whatever is happening with the team (and I think it is a chemistry issue), separating those two was vital.
I see what you did here.

Anyway, that ROR/Kyrou rift is a microcosm of what I was talking about. On one hand you have an two-way center playing next to a player who is focused on speed and dangles. It's not working. ROR can't keep up with Kyrou and Kyrou has no business being on a line with one of our better shut-down players. An O'Reilly centered line needs to be able to grind and get dirty on the forecheck, so it raises the question of whether ROR has lost a half a step, or is he having to hold back because Kyrou's not going to do much to stop the other team's transition game if he gets caught too deep. Saad would've helped mitigate the issues that this line had.

Are we a grind-it-out physical team or are we a high-risk, offense first squad? Because right now it's not working. What is our identity, because we're not going to be able to sustain the ridiculously high shooting pct. we had last year. We're slower than this forward group has ever been.

Now, I understand that there's a way to find balance between the two extremes, but the players have to buy in to that balanced strategy and we've got several guys who don't appear to be buying into that. Not to harp on this but this is exactly why I was willing to deal Kyrou for Tkachuk, who I think would have been perfect for the type of hockey I feel we need to play to have success with a team that's depending on aging players like Schenn, Saad, O'Reilly, etc. Not that it even matters since Florida would've blown any offer we could've made out of the water.

Kyrou is an exciting player, no doubt about it, but I just can't help but feel he's out of place on a Berube coached squad. If Kyrou is the future of this offense, then we need to fully commit to getting younger and adding more speed this offseason because it's not going to fly with this forward group as it's constructed right now.
 

execwrite1

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Mar 30, 2018
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Tarasenko received his current contract about the same time in his career as Kyrou and Thomas just did. Calling them “un-proven” and saying Tarasenko “put in the work” doesn’t really add up. In fact, both Kyrou and Thomas have played in more NHL games than Tarasenko when receiving their contracts. And when Buffalo gave O’Reilly his current contract, almost every fanbase unanimously agreed that Buffalo overpaid given the output he had at the time. It’s only until after O’Reilly played a season in Buffalo that fans started to lessen up their view of the contract.

I understand you’re frustrated, but blaming Thomas an Kyrou is becoming way too convenient an excuse at this point.

Thanks for your very reasoned response. I get what you're saying.

Just comparing Thomas to O'Reilly and Tarasenko to Kyrou:

To me, both the youngsters play a softer, less solid game than O'Reilly and Tarasenko. I like all four guys but I don't feel as confident that the two youngsters will ever measure up in bringing a Cup home.

Thomas will never be the all-round player and leader that O'Reilly has been and Kyrou doesn't have the dynamic "tank-like" quality of Vladi.

They are very good players, but not the foundations of a winning team.

Hope (as usual) that I am very wrong.
 

ChicagoBlues

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All of it is wild speculation. So what?

We could come up with ideas or we can go behind other members who have offered an opinion and say they are just speculating and coming up with excuses and all sorts of nonsense.

It’s the same lame ass post de facto smarm that some members here do.

And it’s not even good smarm.

Offer an opinion on what you think is happening instead of ripping on others who are speculating with confidence.
 

PocketNines

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It's important and helpful to know what words mean and to use them correctly.

"Smarm," for instance, means "ingratiating behavior." It does not mean "ripping on others who are speculating." These things are opposite. Basic knowledge.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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Thomas will never be the all-round player and leader that O'Reilly has been
I agree that Thomas will never be as good defensively as ROR. But I think it is overlooked that Robert Thomas has already outperformed ROR's career year offensively. ROR has never been a point per game player and his career-best 77 points came in 82 games (vs 72 games for Thomas). That 77 point season was an outlier for ROR. It's the only time in his career he's topped 65 points. ROR is a stud and his defense is so damn good that you don't need him to top 70 points to be an above average #1 center. But it doesn't mean that Thomas can't be as good or impactful just because he isn't on the same level defensively. They aren't going to be the same player, but Thomas can be just as impactful if he's an 85+ point player.

I don't mean to direct this next part at you specifically, because the vast majority of Blues fans ascribe this trait to ROR. Why exactly does everyone use leadership as one of ROR's biggest strengths?

We've won a single playoff round with him as the captain. The team was kind of a disaster in his first year as the captain in 2020/21. They were really good last year, but the team is again kind of a disaster right now. And absolutely no one is slumping harder than him. It is well known that he works his ass off. But results have been mixed with him as the captain and there is much more to leadership than work ethic.

I don't want this to come off as a knock on ROR. He's an incredible player. I think extending him should be a priority. But I very much disagree that it is a foregone conclusion that Thomas can never be as good as him and I don't think any person on this board has any idea which of the two possesses better leadership qualities.
 

Punished ROR

a hero denied by hortons
Jul 3, 2006
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Is there a rift between ROR and Kyrou somewhere?

It seems like it’s all wild speculation to me.
I think it's easy for fans to look at two players with stylistic differences and extrapolate that into personal differences.

Avs fans did this with ROR and Duchene, and Sabres fans did it with ROR and Eichel. ROR is friends with both Duchene and Eichel to this day, but that doesn't stop fans from being convinced they secretly hate each other. Eichel even went on record laughing at the rumors that he and ROR had issues, but people still repeat it as fact. Now ROR has a problem with Kyrou? LOL. Sure, whatever.
 
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PocketNines

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There's on ice by example leadership and off ice leadership. We can only get a clear view of one of these.

On that one, ROR is a strong on ice leader and has shown Blues fans this. Thomas is entering the part of his career where he will be asked to do the same. ROR has carried the Blues when the rest of the roster is struggling at times. Thomas hasn't yet, but we are at the outset of his opportunities.
 

ChicagoBlues

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I think it's easy for fans to look at two players with stylistic differences and extrapolate that into personal differences.

Avs fans did this with ROR and Duchene, and Sabres fans did it with ROR and Eichel. ROR is friends with both Duchene and Eichel to this day, but that doesn't stop fans from being convinced they secretly hate each other. Eichel even went on record laughing at the rumors that he and ROR had issues, but people still repeat it as fact. Now ROR has a problem with Kyrou? LOL. Sure, whatever.
Offer something.

Why are the Blues struggling?
 

Bye Bye Blueston

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I agree that Thomas will never be as good defensively as ROR. But I think it is overlooked that Robert Thomas has already outperformed ROR's career year offensively. ROR has never been a point per game player and his career-best 77 points came in 82 games (vs 72 games for Thomas). That 77 point season was an outlier for ROR. It's the only time in his career he's topped 65 points. ROR is a stud and his defense is so damn good that you don't need him to top 70 points to be an above average #1 center. But it doesn't mean that Thomas can't be as good or impactful just because he isn't on the same level defensively. They aren't going to be the same player, but Thomas can be just as impactful if he's an 85+ point player.

I don't mean to direct this next part at you specifically, because the vast majority of Blues fans ascribe this trait to ROR. Why exactly does everyone use leadership as one of ROR's biggest strengths?

We've won a single playoff round with him as the captain. The team was kind of a disaster in his first year as the captain in 2020/21. They were really good last year, but the team is again kind of a disaster right now. And absolutely no one is slumping harder than him. It is well known that he works his ass off. But results have been mixed with him as the captain and there is much more to leadership than work ethic.

I don't want this to come off as a knock on ROR. He's an incredible player. I think extending him should be a priority. But I very much disagree that it is a foregone conclusion that Thomas can never be as good as him and I don't think any person on this board has any idea which of the two possesses better leadership qualities.
Yes. And I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Thomas is our next captain.
 

ChicagoBlues

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Smarmy behavior to ingratiate themselves with other smarmsters who lack the guts to have offer an opinion.

Watering down a point from a place of hostility and contempt.

Edit: Oh well. Whatever. This ain’t worth it.

Go Blues!
 
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PocketNines

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Yeah ... among the issues this subforum has, a plague of people who kiss up to other kissups who themselves have no opinion is not one of them.
 

Reality Czech

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I agree that Thomas will never be as good defensively as ROR. But I think it is overlooked that Robert Thomas has already outperformed ROR's career year offensively. ROR has never been a point per game player and his career-best 77 points came in 82 games (vs 72 games for Thomas). That 77 point season was an outlier for ROR. It's the only time in his career he's topped 65 points. ROR is a stud and his defense is so damn good that you don't need him to top 70 points to be an above average #1 center. But it doesn't mean that Thomas can't be as good or impactful just because he isn't on the same level defensively. They aren't going to be the same player, but Thomas can be just as impactful if he's an 85+ point player.

I don't mean to direct this next part at you specifically, because the vast majority of Blues fans ascribe this trait to ROR. Why exactly does everyone use leadership as one of ROR's biggest strengths?

We've won a single playoff round with him as the captain. The team was kind of a disaster in his first year as the captain in 2020/21. They were really good last year, but the team is again kind of a disaster right now. And absolutely no one is slumping harder than him. It is well known that he works his ass off. But results have been mixed with him as the captain and there is much more to leadership than work ethic.

I don't want this to come off as a knock on ROR. He's an incredible player. I think extending him should be a priority. But I very much disagree that it is a foregone conclusion that Thomas can never be as good as him and I don't think any person on this board has any idea which of the two possesses better leadership qualities.

I don't think it's fair to measure ROR's leadership based on playoff rounds won since he started wearing the C. First of all, I'm pretty sure he's been part of the leadership group since he joined the team. And it's not like a captain can will his team to victory alone. Is Dylan Larkin a bad leader since his team hasn't even made the playoffs? Of course not.

It's equally silly to argue about whether someone is a "better leader" than someone else. There isn't a good way to quantify that, so we can only go on what we've heard in interviews with insiders and teammates. I've heard enough about ROR that I'm pretty sure he's a good leader. He works and trains hard, runs his own drills after practice and current and ex teammates speak very highly of him. Whether or not Thomas can become that kind of guy remains to be seen, but I wouldn't count him out. Will be become more of an active or passive guy in the locker room? Only time will tell I guess. Both him and Kyrou seem more passive to me, but they're still establishing themselves in the league so I'm sure they'll continue to mature.
 
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Brian39

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There's on ice by example leadership and off ice leadership. We can only get a clear view of one of these.

On that one, ROR is a strong on ice leader and has shown Blues fans this. Thomas is entering the part of his career where he will be asked to do the same. ROR has carried the Blues when the rest of the roster is struggling at times. Thomas hasn't yet, but we are at the outset of his opportunities.
I think Thomas absolutely carried this roster at times last year and did it more often than ROR did.

Thomas was an absolute monster when we caught fire and went 14-0-2 down the stretch last season. He had 27 points in those 16 games, which led the team (tied with Tarasenko). That line completely carried the team. Thomas, Buch and Tarasenko were +19, +20, and +14 in that stretch. The next-best forward on the roster was +4.

One of our biggest periods of adversity of the regular season last year was the stretch leading up to and immediately following the all star break. We dropped 2 of 3 heading into the break and then lost to New Jersey coming out of the break. Binner was playing awful and we were sitting in a Wild Card spot by points and points percentage. Over the next 7 games, Thomas led Blues forwards in ice time and led the team in scoring with 9 points (tied with Buch). The team went 6-0-1.

ROR has absolutely been the better playoff performer. ROR was more important to the team overall than Thomas last year and was the 1C. But I don't agree that he led on the ice in a way Thomas didn't.
 

Brian39

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I don't think it's fair to measure ROR's leadership based on playoff rounds won since he started wearing the C. First of all, I'm pretty sure he's been part of the leadership group since he joined the team. And it's not like a captain can will his team to victory alone. Is Dylan Larkin a bad leader since his team hasn't even made the playoffs? Of course not.

It's equally silly to argue about whether someone is a "better leader" than someone else. There isn't a good way to quantify that, so we can only go on what we've heard in interviews with insiders and teammates. I've heard enough about ROR that I'm pretty sure he's a good leader. He works and trains hard, runs his own drills after practice and current and ex teammates speak very highly of him. Whether or not Thomas can become that kind of guy remains to be seen, but I wouldn't count him out. Will be become more of an active or passive guy in the locker room? Only time will tell I guess. Both him and Kyrou seem more passive to me, but they're still establishing themselves in the league so I'm sure they'll continue to mature.
My point is very much that none of us have any damn clue which players are actually good leaders and not that Ryan O'Reilly is a bad leader.
 
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PocketNines

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I think Thomas absolutely carried this roster at times last year and did it more often than ROR did.

Thomas was an absolute monster when we caught fire and went 14-0-2 down the stretch last season. He had 27 points in those 16 games, which led the team (tied with Tarasenko). That line completely carried the team. Thomas, Buch and Tarasenko were +19, +20, and +14 in that stretch. The next-best forward on the roster was +4.

One of our biggest periods of adversity of the regular season last year was the stretch leading up to and immediately following the all star break. We dropped 2 of 3 heading into the break and then lost to New Jersey coming out of the break. Binner was playing awful and we were sitting in a Wild Card spot by points and points percentage. Over the next 7 games, Thomas led Blues forwards in ice time and led the team in scoring with 9 points (tied with Buch). The team went 6-0-1.

ROR has absolutely been the better playoff performer. ROR was more important to the team overall than Thomas last year and was the 1C. But I don't agree that he led on the ice in a way Thomas didn't.
When has Thomas carried the Blues when the rest of the roster is struggling? Did you read that key qualifier? Obviously there have been times where Thomas was outproducing ROR in points, that isn't at all what I said though.

ROR has carried a struggling Blues roster before, so we expect him to do it. (He clearly expects it of himself.) I am saying it's never been Thomas' job to carry a struggling Blues roster until possibly now. That's where you can really identify on ice leadership. Is it not?
 

Punished ROR

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Offer something.

Why are the Blues struggling?
I’m not sure. I’m not sure the players or management themselves know.

There is also a lot of games left and I’m not panicking just yet.

Smarmy behavior to ingratiate themselves with other smarmsters who lack the guts to have offer an opinion.

Watering down a point from a place of hostility and contempt.
You’ve stated that two players don’t like each other and implied that’s why the team is struggling. I don’t think this is some profoundly deep hockey analysis. Actually, I think it is a very ugly, toxic thing for fans to do.

That said, I’m not trying to stop you—if that’s how you enjoy and want to talk sports, fine, that’s your right—but I will push back when I see it.
 

ChicagoBlues

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I’m not sure. I’m not sure the players or management themselves know.

There is also a lot of games left and I’m not panicking just yet.


You’ve stated that two players don’t like each other and implied that’s why the team is struggling. I don’t think this is some profoundly deep hockey analysis. Actually, I think it is a very ugly, toxic thing for fans to do.

That said, I’m not trying to stop you—if that’s how you enjoy and want to talk sports, fine, that’s your right—but I will push back when I see it.
I don’t know either. I made a guess.

I automatically tend to look deeper into a situation. It’s my instinct to do so. Underlying tensions within the team is as valid of a reason as any to explain the recent problems.

Or I it could be something much simpler like a strategy that Chief is trying to implement and it is not working for some reason.

I don’t know. But it sure is fun to speculate. It’s just that I almost always tend to look at potential behaviors when I speculate about the Blues.

For some it is an Xs and Os thing. For me it is about relationships.
 
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PocketNines

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Fragile team right now. Mistakes end up in their net which prompt more mistakes. The individual players are better than this but the Blues are easy to disrupt and frustrate and they haven't hit bottom. They can easily tie the franchise record losing streak Monday and shoot right past it.
 

Chojin

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As much as the team played above their abilities last year, they're playing below them now; this is not a bottom 5 team. I expect them to be on the bubble eventually.
 
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