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Blue Jays GDT: 2021 v5 | Next: Thu Jun 17 | vs NYY | 7:00pm ET/4:00pm PT | King vs Zeuch

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The Nemesis said:
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White Sox infield?
 
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You gotta pull Gurriel now. He didn't even try once he missed the fly ball. He walked to pick up the ball.
 
Somehow Grandal didn't K or walk. I wasn't aware he could do that.

I'm not sure what's wrong with Ryu's changeup but it isn't exactly effective right now. Same issue with Matz.

Coaching issue maybe? super goop expose? The mind boggles.
 
Blitzkrug said:
Somehow Grandal didn't K or walk. I wasn't aware he could do that.

I'm not sure what's wrong with Ryu's changeup but it isn't exactly effective right now. Same issue with Matz.

Coaching issue maybe? super goop expose? The mind boggles.
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Maybe Ryu should've had McGuire catch him rather than Adams. Reese knows how to handle balls with finesse and care.
 
Christ. shut up, Buck.

Umpires not knowing what pitch framing is doesn't mean it doesn't work. If anything it means it does work because the umpire doesn't know what's going on.

We have proof it works. Any time a pitch gets called a strike on a ball outside where the catcher is manipulating the zone it's working.

Stop yelling at clouds.
 
The Nemesis said:
Christ. shut up, Buck.

Umpires not knowing what pitch framing is doesn't mean it doesn't work. If anything it means it does work because the umpire doesn't know what's going on.

We have proof it works. Any time a pitch gets called a strike on a ball outside where the catcher is manipulating the zone it's working.

Stop yelling at clouds.
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I was refreshing waiting for your reply lol. Figured once he went off on this advance stat you would be the 1st one to call him an old man lol.

I think if Buck came out and said " Catchers who are good framers are typically guys who only gotta move the glove a couple of inches cause their pitchers are consistently around the plate so movement is minimal" I can get behind that vs what he said.

I am sure somewhere in his old man takes he thinks it's the catchers who move the pitch back 2 feet from one side to the middle or from the bottom of the strike zone near the dirt to the middle of the zone don't fool the umps. But again it's Buck who knows. At least Tabler wasn't there enabling him.
 
ryno23 said:
I was refreshing waiting for your reply lol. Figured once he went off on this advance stat you would be the 1st one to call him an old man lol.

I think if Buck came out and said " Catchers who are good framers are typically guys who only gotta move the glove a couple of inches cause their pitchers are consistently around the plate so movement is minimal" I can get behind that vs what he said.

I am sure somewhere in his old man takes he thinks it's the catchers who move the pitch back 2 feet from one side to the middle or from the bottom of the strike zone near the dirt to the middle of the zone don't fool the umps. But again it's Buck who knows. At least Tabler wasn't there enabling him.
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I agree. If he just wanted to rag on Adams for being so obvious about it today where his aggressive over-correction might cost the Jays calls, sure. I can understand thinking that's a dumb thing that does no good because yeah, it looks bad and probably hurts more than it helps when he's doing it so poorly.

But there are mountains of data out there that show catchers routinely stealing strikes on the fringes of the zone. Looking at Baseball Savant's data from Statcast pitch tracking last year, there are catchers who were able to get slightly more than half of all fringey non-strikes called as strikes over the course of the limited 2020 season. In 2019 you had Austin Hedges and Tyler Flowers stealing strikes to the extent that they may have saved their team up to 15 runs over the course of the season. Not a ton in 162 game schedule, mind you. But enough that maybe it helps a team eke out an extra win or two that could theoretically impact the standings. It's important and valuable.

And the frustrating thing with Buck is that like a lot of other things that he tends to kvetch about when it comes to newfangled concepts and stats, given enough runway and the right conversation to steer things in a sensible direction, he will arrive at the conclusion that agrees with the intent or focus of the concept he's spent so much time denigrating. He bags on the widespread disdain for pitcher wins as a statistical measure, but then he and Pat can have lengthy conversations where they admit that poor defence or insufficient run support costs good pitchers the victory in a sterling outing. He carps about RBIs not getting their due, but then turns around and says that a guy is unlucky to be on a team where he gets exposed and worked around because the rest of the order is weak or where someone at a given point in the lineup might not get as many RBI opportunities as another because of who's hitting ahead of him. Somewhere deep inside his brain he understands the thing that the 'new' thinking is getting at and he might even agree with it. But he's so prideful about his baseball knowledge and how the game was when he was coming up that he knee-jerks into disliking new ideas simply because they're new. Even if they're just a new way to present an old idea.

It very much feels like if someone would explain the concept to him in a certain way or be able to get him to understand the point of a new metric or a shift in thinking without him getting defensive about his "but in my day...." that the light bulb might turn on and he might stop being so reactionary about it. Like he seems to have finally come around on the value/validity of OBP and OPS compared to years past.

Even right now, he's agreeing with Dan about how errors are not a super valuable measure of defensive proficiency. But then if someone brings up range factor or UZR or whatever he'll poo-poo it and talk about how in his day they had errors to measure D and it worked just fine. or how Derek Jeter didn't commit many errors and it meant "he made the plays he was supposed to" and that was valuable.

And that's all I want. I don't need him to proselytize for pitch framing or laud the modern move away from steals and towards near-constant defensive shifts. Those things aren't for everyone and he doesn't need to advocate for them loudly if he doesn't believe in them I just want him to stop going off on tangents full of misinformation or argue against something purely on it not being what he's used to.

If he doesn't like pitch framing, cool. He doesn't have to talk about it positively. But he should also stay away from things that make him seem foolish or misinformed. I don't need a SABR conference in every broadcast. But I also don't want an anti-modernist screed that's rooted in obviously incorrect or faulty modes of thinking.
 
The Nemesis said:
I agree. If he just wanted to rag on Adams for being so obvious about it today where his aggressive over-correction might cost the Jays calls, sure. I can understand thinking that's a dumb thing that does no good because yeah, it looks bad and probably hurts more than it helps when he's doing it so poorly.

But there are mountains of data out there that show catchers routinely stealing strikes on the fringes of the zone. Looking at Baseball Savant's data from Statcast pitch tracking last year, there are catchers who were able to get slightly more than half of all fringey non-strikes called as strikes over the course of the limited 2020 season. In 2019 you had Austin Hedges and Tyler Flowers stealing strikes to the extent that they may have saved their team up to 15 runs over the course of the season. Not a ton in 162 game schedule, mind you. But enough that maybe it helps a team eke out an extra win or two that could theoretically impact the standings. It's important and valuable.

And the frustrating thing with Buck is that like a lot of other things that he tends to kvetch about when it comes to newfangled concepts and stats, given enough runway and the right conversation to steer things in a sensible direction, he will arrive at the conclusion that agrees with the intent or focus of the concept he's spent so much time denigrating. He bags on the widespread disdain for pitcher wins as a statistical measure, but then he and Pat can have lengthy conversations where they admit that poor defence or insufficient run support costs good pitchers the victory in a sterling outing. He carps about RBIs not getting their due, but then turns around and says that a guy is unlucky to be on a team where he gets exposed and worked around because the rest of the order is weak or where someone at a given point in the lineup might not get as many RBI opportunities as another because of who's hitting ahead of him. Somewhere deep inside his brain he understands the thing that the 'new' thinking is getting at and he might even agree with it. But he's so prideful about his baseball knowledge and how the game was when he was coming up that he knee-jerks into disliking new ideas simply because they're new. Even if they're just a new way to present an old idea.

It very much feels like if someone would explain the concept to him in a certain way or be able to get him to understand the point of a new metric or a shift in thinking without him getting defensive about his "but in my day...." that the light bulb might turn on and he might stop being so reactionary about it. Like he seems to have finally come around on the value/validity of OBP and OPS compared to years past.

Even right now, he's agreeing with Dan about how errors are not a super valuable measure of defensive proficiency. But then if someone brings up range factor or UZR or whatever he'll poo-poo it and talk about how in his day they had errors to measure D and it worked just fine. or how Derek Jeter didn't commit many errors and it meant "he made the plays he was supposed to" and that was valuable.

And that's all I want. I don't need him to proselytize for pitch framing or laud the modern move away from steals and towards near-constant defensive shifts. Those things aren't for everyone and he doesn't need to advocate for them loudly if he doesn't believe in them I just want him to stop going off on tangents full of misinformation or argue against something purely on it not being what he's used to.

If he doesn't like pitch framing, cool. He doesn't have to talk about it positively. But he should also stay away from things that make him seem foolish or misinformed. I don't need a SABR conference in every broadcast. But I also don't want an anti-modernist screed that's rooted in obviously incorrect or faulty modes of thinking.
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One of your best posts. I think the challenge for baseball broadcasters is for the most part the color guys are ex-players who played in a different era and that is what they know. Also, producers I am sure are torn from going full-on advance stats in broadcast and risk alienating old baseball fans who don't really care about advance stats or really have any interest in knowing them as it doesn't add to their watching experience. They have baseball knowledge that is rooted in a game played differently.

Older fans don't rush to these advanced sites to read up on who is doing the best they are used to back of baseball card numbers.

That is the tricky part like you said how much SABR talk do you have in a broadcast so you don't turn off casual or older fans. THe SABR talk is more for forums like here vs your nightly ball telecast.

I am not a fan of Buck at all and worse Tabler who doesn't listen to his PBP guy cause he repeats a point as if he never heard it

I like Shulman but it's time to move from Buck and Tabby and bring in a new voice.

When I watch my cubs I get Boog Sciambi and Jim Deshaies plus Ryan Dempster the odd time. These guys actually talk advanced stats but explain it in a way that even the casual ball fan can learn and understand but don't go overboard.
 
Hoping all these LOB don't come back to bite them. And hope Richards comes back out next inning.

Edit: And I hope this is the new Stripling moving forward
 
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