Prospect Info: 2021 NHL Draft: The Home Stretch, Draft July 23-24

[The Zetterberg Era]

We have also seen much worse skaters become exceptional players. How? Even with a skating deficiency they were smart and skilled enough to compensate and become great players through other means.

I remember watching Larry Murphy and thinking (knowing) that I was a better skater than him when I was midget playing with Little Caesers. But Murph could slow the game down to his pace, draw in the other team and make a play at center ice or at Detroit's blueline with 2 opposing players attacking his position and it would spring a forward on our team up ice into the offensive zone. And despite his speed Murphy was one of the all time best defensemen at holding the offensive blueline. The guy's hand-eye coordination was unreal.

My point is that talent finds a way, and Clarke does a lot of things better than any other defenseman in this draft class. If Clarke is talented and smart enough he's going to be a good player in spite of his skating style. And if he can work on it and improve the mechanics then he'll be even better.

Yeah late 30's already a sure fire HHOF guy with 15+ years of NHL experience to understand all that. Keep in mind Larry Murphy in his 20s could skate circles around Clarke, I might be able to tie his knees together with a band for prime Larry Murphy to skate like Clarke in a prime age... But more important tell me about the poor skating great D-man in the league, trying to think of one right now... Is Clarke the outlier, or is he more likely to fit in with the bottom pairing PP specialist that we have seen more recently in the league?

One intriguing part on Clarke is because of Seider we can somewhat assume he wouldn't have to do as much heavy lifting in Detroit and we could leverage him more. Him and Hronek are kind of redundant, so I think if you do pick Clarke next off-season maybe you move Hronek, so there are assets to be had there. We probably can provide him an ideal growth environment, at least while not being sky high on Clarke that is what I am telling myself if the Wings pick him. Smart player, but I think the athleticism that is in the NHL is only getting better, so yeah that is really important to me when looking at these guys.

Which is why his comments about his game being fine is so troubling. And while we don't know what he's saying in interviews with different teams, they know he said this. The moment he talks about he strikes a different tune in a 1-on-1 interview the obvious follow up is, "then why did you say this in the interview you had?"

Yeah, he might have just gotten defensive and ran his mouth a bit but it looks really bad. And if he has a crap attitude about something that is clearly a weak spot in his game, how likely do teams think he would take coaching elsewhere? Is he likely to buy in to what a team is doing or is he going to do what he wants to do because it worked in the U18s?

Someone threw out a comparison to mantha earlier, I'd throw out Athanasiou, too. Talented guys, NHLers, but some question marks between the ears that will almost certainly turn teams off.

Actually really gave me more Ho-Sang vibes, like everyone is worried about your attitude and how you deal with coaches. Ho-Sang, I should be allowed to tell my coaches what I think, I don't see that as a problem... But hey, to date Clarke hasn't had issues with his level of competition. Like I don't think he is being dishonest and I appreciate that in him and the confidence to some level. But this is a question you had to have known was coming for months, that your agent has to have told you, so it shows kind of an unpreparedness, though these are kids you need to give them some of that stuff. Still I don't think he understands just quite yet the step up, where they will attack his outside hip and how quickly they can cross over to the inside, along with all the change of pace to make his stride a much larger issue. To date he is smarter than 99% of the kids he is playing against. That number will drop, and then you have the ability of coaches to put systems in that attack his weaknesses. This league is brutal, you better be ready to be making continuous adjustments.

You want these guys to believe in their abilities. But you also want them to listen and realize there is just so much work left to be done. That is one that sounds cliche but we know that once you're drafted the work is really just beginning. Detroit is going to tell you how to train, how to eat, what your best sleep pattern is. That is where the sport science has gone, so he better get ready for that. That is the modern NHL, also where being a guy with significant skating mechanical issues they will try to fix them. Because even guys like Mark Stone actually have made decent progression from their days as poor skating prospects to poor skating NHLers. Hopefully Clarke has a top 25 stick work to go with the current package, I have seen flashes but I think that is going to be important.

 

[Hen Kolland]

But more important tell me about the poor skating great D-man in the league, trying to think of one right now

This is why everyone is bringing up the question of “can he be Adam Fox” in various podcasts and other sources of media

 

[Frk It]

I listened to the most recent The Athletic Hockey Show podcast, and Pronman said scouts had mixed reviews about Clarke’s performance at the U18s.

Which I was a little surprised to hear, because I thought he looked really strong in that tournament.

I believe he said there scouts thought were some moments where guys exploited his skating in the tournament, which I don’t recall, but I could have missed it.

So I am curious to see where he comes in on Bob McKenzie’s final ranking. I am wondering if Eklund has elevated to the consensus top 5 now. I am somewhat expecting to see Power, Beniers, Guenther, Edvinsson, Eklund in his top 5. We will see. Maybe MacTavish has ascended into that group for NHL teams.

 

[deca guard]

 

[Nut Upstrom]

If he had attitude or arrogance issues then scouts/GMs have red flagged them by now. I don't see these quotes altering his position on a team's draft board in the least. I am still very high on Clarke and would be thrilled with him, Hughes, Edvinsson or even one of the wingers, Guenther or Eklund at six.

 

[Gniwder]

Still I don't think he understands just quite yet the step up, where they will attack his outside hip and how quickly they can cross over to the inside, along with all the change of pace to make his stride a much larger issue. To date he is smarter than 99% of the kids he is playing against. That number will drop, and then you have the ability of coaches to put systems in that attack his weaknesses. This league is brutal, you better be ready to be making continuous adjustments.

Exactly. Everyone was all high on Cholo his rookie year, and I was pointing out all of the issues while everyone pretty much told me that I'm stupid. It was all over as soon as the league figured him out.

Clarke barely uses his outside edges ever, he even stops on one foot. The better forwards in this league will skate around him, and he's not going to deke through an NHL lineup without better footwork. Zadina's a better skater and he can't get past NHL defenders.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Yeah late 30's already a sure fire HHOF guy with 15+ years of NHL experience to understand all that. Keep in mind Larry Murphy in his 20s could skate circles around Clarke, I might be able to tie his knees together with a band for prime Larry Murphy to skate like Clarke in a prime age... But more important tell me about the poor skating great D-man in the league, trying to think of one right now... Is Clarke the outlier, or is he more likely to fit in with the bottom pairing PP specialist that we have seen more recently in the league?

One intriguing part on Clarke is because of Seider we can somewhat assume he wouldn't have to do as much heavy lifting in Detroit and we could leverage him more. Him and Hronek are kind of redundant, so I think if you do pick Clarke next off-season maybe you move Hronek, so there are assets to be had there. We probably can provide him an ideal growth environment, at least while not being sky high on Clarke that is what I am telling myself if the Wings pick him. Smart player, but I think the athleticism that is in the NHL is only getting better, so yeah that is really important to me when looking at these guys.

I'm old enough to remember watching Murphy in Minnesota, Pittsburgh and Toronto. He had feet of lead even in the early 90's. I can't speak for his Washington or LA Kings days, but Murphy was a guy that skating was never his strength.

And a Dman in the league who is solid but not a great skater? How about current Norris winner Adam Fox. He's not a speedster. He's not supremely agile and as the game goes on his skating becomes choppier as he gets more tired. I'd say Fox is average to above average for an NHL defenseman. However there aren't many defensemen in the league that are better passers than him or can shoot the puck as well as he can from all ranges. On top of that how well Fox can read the offensive zone has to be top 5 in the league for a defenseman.

 

[lilidk]

Only 2 more weeks and we will see a lot of changes to Red Wings. This draft is a lot of unknown, so I don't care no more who we draft I just wanted to watch our prospect camp. I like to see progress from earlier drafted players
I like to see high compete level with a lot of skills

 

[Dotter]

Exactly. Everyone was all high on Cholo his rookie year, and I was pointing out all of the issues while everyone pretty much told me that I'm stupid. It was all over as soon as the league figured him out.

Clarke barely uses his outside edges ever, he even stops on one foot. The better forwards in this league will skate around him, and he's not going to deke through an NHL lineup without better footwork. Zadina's a better skater and he can't get past NHL defenders.

Woah there Chief, don't pat yourself on the back too hard... you might hurt yourself.

You can point out issues on any rookies selected in the 20-30 draft range and be right 90% to 99% of the time as players chances of becoming a legit NHL player decreases. The odds were in your favor to being right.

You can say player "X" picked in the 20s from the '21 draft is going to fail... and there's a high likely-hood you will be right. Take 2009 draft for example, there's what 2 NHL slugs still playing from that 20-30 range?. Not really any legit and valuable NHLers.

 

[rhef3]

If Lucas Raymond is our Future top line winger, would he benefit more from Mason Mctavish or Kent Johnson at Center ?

From reading up on the two it looks like Mctavish is a gritty two way goal scoring power forward and Johnson is more of a creative playmaking center.

Now both are top tier players but from a chemistry standpoint which would you rather have playing on a line with Raymond ? and possibly Vrana or Zadina ?

 

[Hen Kolland]

If Lucas Raymond is our Future top line winger, would he benefit more from Mason Mctavish or Kent Johnson at Center ?

From reading up on the two it looks like Mctavish is a gritty two way goal scoring power forward and Johnson is more of a creative playmaking center.

Now both are top tier players but from a chemistry standpoint which would you rather have playing on a line with Raymond ? and possibly Vrana or Zadina ?

I don’t think you can view it through that small of a lens though. Maybe Raymond and Johnson fill a very similar play style role, but that doesn’t mean that they have to line up together. Building scoring depth at the top of the lineup is the important goal.

While I am more of a fan of McTavish and think he’d be a good fit for our skilled wingers, I also see Johnson and think he could be a good fit for our industrious centers.

Raymond-Larkin-Zadina
Johnson-Rasmussen-Vrana

or

Bertuzzi-Larkin-Vrana
Raymond-McTavish-Zadina

Those names are just toss ins, but the point is that we can find places and complementary players for all of our guys. Between those guys you just need to take the guy you believe in the most. We can find a fit for the good skill sets.

 

[jfrank21]

If Lucas Raymond is our Future top line winger, would he benefit more from Mason Mctavish or Kent Johnson at Center ?

From reading up on the two it looks like Mctavish is a gritty two way goal scoring power forward and Johnson is more of a creative playmaking center.

Now both are top tier players but from a chemistry standpoint which would you rather have playing on a line with Raymond ? and possibly Vrana or Zadina ?

Well, Johnson's strength is carrying the puck and trying to beat guys one on one. He tries to handle the puck all of the time and plays more of a perimeter game. McTavish's strength is winning face offs, battling in tight along the boards, moving the puck to his teammates, and getting free to rip a shot on net. Lucas Raymond, when I have watched him, tends to want to carry the puck in transition, creates room for his teammates by drawing defenders to him and tries to set up the shooter on his line. Personally, I think McTavish would complement Raymond's game better. That said, Johnson's game could benefit someone like Zadina....and shit, Johnson and McTavish would complement each other. Make it happen Stevie!

 

[archimet]

I don’t think you can view it through that small of a lens though. Maybe Raymond and Johnson fill a very similar play style role, but that doesn’t mean that they have to line up together. Building scoring depth at the top of the lineup is the important goal.

While I am more of a fan of McTavish and think he’d be a good fit for our skilled wingers, I also see Johnson and think he could be a good fit for our industrious centers.

Raymond-Larkin-Zadina
Johnson-Rasmussen-Vrana

or

Bertuzzi-Larkin-Vrana
Raymond-McTavish-Zadina

Those names are just toss ins, but the point is that we can find places and complementary players for all of our guys. Between those guys you just need to take the guy you believe in the most. We can find a fit for the good skill sets.

I like the second option. Raymond would likely be the driver of the Raymond-McTavish-Zadina line. Rasmussen could turn out to be a very good, shut-down third-line center.

 

[Gniwder]

Woah there Chief, don't pat yourself on the back too hard... you might hurt yourself.

You can point out issues on any rookies selected in the 20-30 draft range and be right 90% to 99% of the time as players chances of becoming a legit NHL player decreases. The odds were in your favor to being right.

You can say player "X" picked in the 20s from the '21 draft is going to fail... and there's a high likely-hood you will be right. Take 2009 draft for example, there's what 2 NHL slugs still playing from that 20-30 range?. Not really any legit and valuable NHLers.

I'm not talking about when he was drafted, I'm talking about his first dozen games or so when everyone thought he was the next Lidstrom or something (OK, I'm exaggerating a little, lol)

Weren't you one of the guys talking him up back then? Do I need to go look this up?

Besides, if you want to go look it up I was pointing out specific deficiencies, not just saying he was going to fail based on odds. I don't remember ever saying Hronek wasn't going to cut it, and he was picked well after Cholo.

 

[lilidk]

If Lucas Raymond is our Future top line winger, would he benefit more from Mason Mctavish or Kent Johnson at Center ?

From reading up on the two it looks like Mctavish is a gritty two way goal scoring power forward and Johnson is more of a creative playmaking center.

Now both are top tier players but from a chemistry standpoint which would you rather have playing on a line with Raymond ? and possibly Vrana or Zadina ?

Mctavish definitely, but we don't know how ether will progress. It's possible that best center from this draft will be drafted outside top 10

 

[Gniwder]

I'm old enough to remember watching Murphy in Minnesota, Pittsburgh and Toronto. He had feet of lead even in the early 90's. I can't speak for his Washington or LA Kings days, but Murphy was a guy that skating was never his strength.

And a Dman in the league who is solid but not a great skater? How about current Norris winner Adam Fox. He's not a speedster. He's not supremely agile and as the game goes on his skating becomes choppier as he gets more tired. I'd say Fox is average to above average for an NHL defenseman. However there aren't many defensemen in the league that are better passers than him or can shoot the puck as well as he can from all ranges. On top of that how well Fox can read the offensive zone has to be top 5 in the league for a defenseman.

You criticize his skating then post a video of him splitting 3 guys from center ice, lol. 2:38 into the video.

I'm not gonna defend Murph, but Fox isn't slow. Maybe he has stamina issues, but he was logging almost 25 minutes a night. Not to mention college players aren't used to long seasons. If it winds up being a problem, they'll have to address his TOI.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

You criticize his skating then post a video of him splitting 3 guys from center ice, lol. 2:38 into the video.

I'm not gonna defend Murph, but Fox isn't slow. Maybe he has stamina issues, but he was logging almost 25 minutes a night. Not to mention college players aren't used to long seasons. If it winds up being a problem, they'll have to address his TOI.

Watch some of Clarke's highlights and you'll see him splitting guys as well.

 

[Gniwder]

Watch some of Clarke's highlights and you'll see him splitting guys as well.

Splitting defenders in juniors isn't the same as the NHL, Zadina was a monster in the Q.

Regardless, the interview certainly shows a lack of maturity in terms of talking to the media. He should've just gave a canned response like "I'm constantly trying to improve every aspect of my game, because the NHL is a tough league." Or maybe he's a genius and said that to drop down in the draft to get picked by a better team, lol. I doubt it because he really hasn't addressed the issue so far.

 

[Vector Cereal]

I have a bit of insight on Clarke in that I'm similarly knock kneed. I ran varsity track at the collegiate level, and it wasn't much of a hindrance other than pushing off the blocks/power from a standstill. Running doesn't have crossovers or lateral movement, so his might be more prohibitive than mine. The issue (valgus at the knee) is fairly common, so there's a fairly standard physio regimen that is prescribed for it. Usually it's just weak glute med, so you can tack on clam shells/fire hydrants at the end of a weights session. All that being said, I never managed to fix my stride, and my strength coach works with a few NHLers in the summer as well as some pro basketball and CFL players, so I likely went through a similar program Clarke would. Small sample size, and maybe my issue is more severe, but it's an absolute pain to fix whether you want to or not.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Exactly. Everyone was all high on Cholo his rookie year, and I was pointing out all of the issues while everyone pretty much told me that I'm stupid. It was all over as soon as the league figured him out.

Clarke barely uses his outside edges ever, he even stops on one foot. The better forwards in this league will skate around him, and he's not going to deke through an NHL lineup without better footwork. Zadina's a better skater and he can't get past NHL defenders.

Well and what I was lower on with Zadina than most at the time was his explosiveness. When you got guys that have skating issues, you hope at least they are plus athletes. I can say I am happy with the progress Zadina has made with his skating, honestly it is about as much as I hoped he could. I would like to believe next year is a breakout, but my issue and worry with Zadina was always athleticism. It is why I think if I remember right I had him 8 or 9 in his draft year. Still he can be a player, I think Clarke can too, but I just worry about guys with skating/athletic questions that high in the draft. There is upside though to be sure, if @OgeeOgelthorpe sees first pairing I understand the appeal, just not what I see, but I get that people see players differently and understand we have a variety of people that post here that are right and wrong on a lot of different aspects. I respect the opinions of those following prospects, just for me he is a guy I have enough questions on, I hope we don't pick him unless he falls to 22 and that really shouldn't happen, more likely he is gone before us at #6 than that, which speaks to the the upside of those that are big believers.

We will always value certain things differently, I really appreciate the difference in opinions. We just see certain things different, but in a lot of ways I think it challenges you to find and understand other effective players. When somebody that clearly knows a lot about prospects, hockey etc has that different opinion I think it can help you see players differently. Not always to immediate agreement, but I think it is important in a lot of ways, especially with amateurs where there is more variance in my opinion.

 

[MBH]

You don't want to draft a f***ing trainwreck or headcase.
But anyone who picks a less talented player who interviews like a pro instead of a more talented player who doesn't? You're asking for Michael Rasmussen in the top 10.

Nobody gives a shit about Zadina bragging he's going to fill the nets. If he actually can do it. They actually loved that shit.
Patrick Kane burned a lot of bridges going to London.
Nobody cared.

People mature. Generally a lot after 17-18 years old.

What you worry about are the kinds of things that consistently detract from a player's ability to perform or seem detrimental to a team.

Regarding Clarke - I keep reading scouting reports that talk about his knock-kneed skating - but then compare him to Cale Makar.

To me, I don't care, because there are other guys in his tier (my opinion) who play a position of his need - so there's no way in f***ing hell I'm drafting a RD at 6.

 

[MBH]

Mctavish definitely, but we don't know how ether will progress. It's possible that best center from this draft will be drafted outside top 10

Not sure why you think McTavish. I think Johnson and Raymond are both REAL puck possession guys.
In the past, when we've had Datsyuk-Zetterberg play that game together, the results were special.

 

[MBH]

THE RED WING'S DRAFT ZONE :

heres whats on the docket today as red wing brass are probably
huddled in ozzys ' ice house ' planning draft day strategy .

- are clarkes legs strong and coordinated enough to skate normal
- can mc't skate or is he a frankenstein
- is edvinsson another ken holland slow thinking dman
- is johnson rugged and strong enough motored for the bigs

1 - power
2 - beniers
3 - hughes
4 - guenther
5 - eklund
6 - ?

For me, the guys you list are all in the same tier.
I can't sit here and tell you I think Johnson is going to blow the other guys away? Or McTavish will be a third liner. Or whatever.
I do think Johnson has something special in his IQ/Skill.
But with Johnson potentially not being a center, I take Edvinsson. Seems like a pretty sure top 4 defenseman and more and more scouting reports are talking about his untapped offensive abilities.

My ranking of those guys for 6th overall is:
1) Edvinsson
2) Johnson
3) McTavish
4) Clarke

 

[newfy]

In my mind the skating isn't really the issue. The issue is that he told a reporter that he doesn't think he needs to improve it. There is zero doubt that this is the biggest weakness of his game. People were talking about this in his OHL draft year. This is nothing knew unless you just started following the kid yesterday. Furthermore, everyone has weaknesses. It is part of life, especially at 18. NHL teams aren't expecting perfect players. Hell, even McDavid has weaknesses. If he isn't willing to work on his weaknesses, I don't know what exactly he is willing to work on.

If you think that your shit doesn't stink, the least you can do is to have the sense to act otherwise.

I finally went back and actually read the article. This thread is hilarious, people need to pay for the athletic and actually read shit before questioning his character. The quote being discussed here says absolutely nothing about him not needing to improve his skating. He never says its not a weakness that he doesnt need to improve either. Now theres 2 pages of people saying he might be a headcase because people are too cheap to buy the athletic and have went off of one posters post that misquoted him.

The entire quote is Clarke discussing people criticising his awkward skating stride. His quote isnt him saying that he doesnt need to improve his speed or agility, its that his awkward stride can be effective and that the criticism is over the top. I completely agree with him. Hes going to need to work on his speed and explosiveness, but his stride gets him around the icefine right now and with strength/growth will be fine at the next level

 

[deca guard]

For me, the guys you list are all in the same tier.
I can't sit here and tell you I think Johnson is going to blow the other guys away? Or McTavish will be a third liner. Or whatever.
I do think Johnson has something special in his IQ/Skill.
But with Johnson potentially not being a center, I take Edvinsson. Seems like a pretty sure top 4 defenseman and more and more scouting reports are talking about his untapped offensive abilities.

My ranking of those guys for 6th overall is:
1) Edvinsson
2) Johnson
3) McTavish
4) Clarke

i couldnt disagree because i think edvinssons the safest pick , because of size and skating , that also has a high ceiling .
but ide also be very happy to draft mctavish if hes going to be a center