Speculation: 2021-21 LA Kings News/Rumors/Roster discussion

[Reclamation Project]

That's what happens when the NHL basically rigs the system to make it easy for a team to go from expansion to this in a short time rather than pay their dues. The loopholes were vast and should have been closed up before they were exploited by multiple teams in trades, etc. They made it easy for Vegas to then top it off with other players to round out their franchise. The reality with the NHL though is that the window closes fast due to salaries so Vegas won't have it open forever.

The overall consensus by 99.9% of the hockey world was Vegas would be one of the worst teams in the league their first year, if not the worst. Bill Foley was laughed at for saying playoffs in 3 years and Cup in 5. They've been in the final four three of their first four years and the SCF in their first year. Well who is laughing now? So which is it, was the system rigged to help them be an immediate playoff team (like you can only say in retrospect) or was Vegas smart enough to identity talent and build an immediate group of players that were hungry to prove their worth against the teams that discarded them? The notion that Vegas was gift wrapped a contending roster is laughable. Many of their best players were acquired via trade and free agency (Stone, Pacioretty, Martinez, Lehner, Pietrangelo).

 

[Vino]

Girard is undersized and was exposed enough on defensive side in series with Vegas.
I do not think Kings will trade one of the young 3 centers for him.

Exactly. We have already left side 22 years old Mikey Anderson (5'11/ 194 lbs ) and 20 years old Tobias Björnfot (6'0"/ 202 lbs) and the last thing what we need is a midget like Girard.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Yup.

It was like the entire league went Dave Taylor. Correct me if I'm wrong, the Kings gave Nashville a bunch of assets, one of them being Kimmo Timonen (who went on to play 1000 games as an all-star defenseman) so Nashville would take Freddie Chabot and the Kings wouldn't have to worry about losing Storr or Feces in the next expansion draft?

Man, no wonder this organization was such a joke.

Yeah that one didn't work out so well.

Los Angeles traded Kimmo Timonen and Jan Vopat to Nashville after the Predators agreed not to select Garry Galley.

Both correct, and I think the Kings also made those deals in order for Nashville to not select Jere Karalahti. The Kings sent Vitali Yachmenev and Marian Cisar to Nashville as well.

 

[SFKingshomer]

Exactly. We have already left side 22 years old Mikey Anderson (5'11/ 194 lbs ) and 20 years old Tobias Björnfot (6'0"/ 202 lbs) and the last thing what we need is a midget like Girard.

Girard is better than both in an offensive role

 

[Perratrooper]

Girard is undersized and was exposed enough on defensive side in series with Vegas.
I do not think Kings will trade one of the young 3 centers for him.

Fair enough, I think the exposure was more due to his rotating door or sub-par defensive partners and Bednar taking until game 5 to adjust. He definitely did look shaky, I won’t defend that, but I think how bad he looked was compounded on by his partners. I think if you get the correct partner for him in playoffs or provide better support down low you receive a more consistent performance between the regular season and the post season. However completely understand your stance and appreciate your perspective.

 

[Perratrooper]

Girard is better than both in an offensive role

One thing that does get overlooked is that Girard gets 2nd unit pp time and was relied upon defensively much more than Makar during the season. I would imagine if he were utilized in a similar manner to Makar he looks a lot better. Especially if Doughty was his partner.

 

[SmytheKing]

Maybe Caufield's success is being overblown. He has played 19 games and has one more regulation goal than Kaliyev has in 1 game.

I hate to be "that guy" but this seems like a weird argument to make. If I ask you to name your Top 2 goals from Alec Martinez, which ones would they be and were they in regulation?

The point is, discounting game winning goals in OT to diminish what someone has done seems kinda picky.

 

[Herby]

Maybe Caufield's success is being overblown. He has played 19 games and has one more regulation goal than Kaliyev has in 1 game.

Do you believe the same thing about QB (1 assist in 6 NHL games)?

If Kaliyev or Turcotte were playing like this in the NHL right now are we talking about "waiting to see", "pumping the brakes" or "they might fizzle out"? Ofcourse not, everyone is (rightfully again) beyond ecstatic as they should be for a prospect looking that good at such a young age. Why do we have different rules for Kings prospects vs. other teams prospects?

You can go check the threads about QB, there was (rightfully) lots of optimism about him going forward after his 6 game NHL stint. Some guys you can just tell right away that they have "it". I wanted to see QB play before I was ready to anoint him. I saw him play in the NHL and it was all I needed to see, he had "it". You can just tell with certain guys, Kopi was the same way.

It's not easy for guys to come into this league at such a young age and look as good as both players looked. I don't know why we realize that with some players but not with others.

 

[Piston]

Girard is better than both in an offensive role

He made some terrible decisions in his own end when pressured. If we are going to trade prospects, there must be better option particularly from teams that don't want to lose someone for nothing in expansion.

 

[King'sPawn]

Do you believe the same thing about QB (1 assist in 6 NHL games)?

If Kaliyev or Turcotte were playing like this in the NHL right now are we talking about "waiting to see", "pumping the brakes" or "they might fizzle out"? Ofcourse not, everyone is (rightfully again) beyond ecstatic as they should be for a prospect looking that good at such a young age. Why do we have different rules for Kings prospects vs. other teams prospects?

You can go check the threads about QB, there was (rightfully) lots of optimism about him going forward after his 6 game NHL stint. Some guys you can just tell right away that they have "it". I wanted to see QB play before I was ready to anoint him. I saw him play in the NHL and it was all I needed to see, he had "it". You can just tell with certain guys, Kopi was the same way.

It's not easy for guys to come into this league at such a young age and look as good as both players looked. I don't know why we realize that with some players but not with others.

I think it's fair to have excitement. I'm excited for QB, too.

But anyone who anoints QB as ANYTHING, be it bust or superstar, I'd remind them that he's only 18 years old.

Caufield is only 20 years old. He has qualities and deficiencies. I'm all for discussion, but I think it's reasonable to want more time before making any proclamation.

Granted, I didn't have the same approach with Kopitar. But I was 15 years younger and dumber.

 

[Herby]

He made some terrible decisions in his own end when pressured. If we are going to trade prospects, there must be better option particularly from teams that don't want to lose someone for nothing in expansion.

I'm not a huge Girard fan, but this team is going to eventually need to add a highly skilled offensive d-man, and that d-man will probably have some wrinkles. The offensive guys without some issues are just rarely available on the open market, or if they are the cost is going to be astronomical (Werenski).

Any of the surplus young centers the Kings would likely be trading for Girard are not without their own issues.

Blake needs to diversify the young players (the next wave) going forward. There isn't a goaltender, there are very few wingers, there aren't really any offensive d-man. It has to eventually be addressed.

 

[Kudelski37]

I hate to be "that guy" but this seems like a weird argument to make. If I ask you to name your Top 2 goals from Alec Martinez, which ones would they be and were they in regulation?

The point is, discounting game winning goals in OT to diminish what someone has done seems kinda picky.

3v3 OT is different than any other part of NHL hockey which is why I discounted it. He has zero playoff goals. He could be good or he could be the next Luff or Wagner. It is way too early to know. If a King prospect scored goals at the same rate as Caufield, he would be overlooked because JAD did that this season. There is no consistency between how people look at Kings players and other team players.

 

[SmytheKing]

3v3 OT is different than any other part of NHL hockey which is why I discounted it. He has zero playoff goals. He could be good or he could be the next Luff or Wagner. It is way too early to know. If a King prospect scored goals at the same rate as Caufield, he would be overlooked because JAD did that this season. There is no consistency between how people look at Kings players and other team players.

JAD had like 70 professional games before he became a regular with the Kings. Caufield played two games in the AHL where he scored 3 goals, then went to the NHL and had like two back to back game winners in OT and has looked very dangerous at other times. There's a reason why one has hype and the other is getting overlooked and it isn't just because one's in Montreal.

That said, who gives a **** about people being hyped up about a prospect and ignoring the Kings ones? I care about the results more than I do what fans on a message board say about them.

EDIT: Also, they aren't scoring at the same rate. JAD would have had 14 goals this season if they were and you can be sure if he had 14 goals in 34 games, people would be talking about him since that would be the same pace as Nathan McKinnon, John Tavares, and Mitch Marner were scoring at.

 

[BigKing]

The overall consensus by 99.9% of the hockey world was Vegas would be one of the worst teams in the league their first year, if not the worst. Bill Foley was laughed at for saying playoffs in 3 years and Cup in 5. They've been in the final four three of their first four years and the SCF in their first year. Well who is laughing now? So which is it, was the system rigged to help them be an immediate playoff team (like you can only say in retrospect) or was Vegas smart enough to identity talent and build an immediate group of players that were hungry to prove their worth against the teams that discarded them? The notion that Vegas was gift wrapped a contending roster is laughable. Many of their best players were acquired via trade and free agency (Stone, Pacioretty, Martinez, Lehner, Pietrangelo).

They racked up three first round picks in their first draft and essentially flipped the lower two of them--13 and 15OA--for Pacioretty and Stone. Not too shabby. Imagine if they traded Glass instead of Suzuki. Yikes. Their 2nd round pick from that year is currently logging 16 minutes a night for them on the backend and the price they paid for Martinez is laughable.

It wasn't "rigged" for them but they did receive much more favorable rules than prior expansion teams. Makes sense from a business perspective though and the NHL is an unquestioned hit in the middle of the desert now.

Still. f*** these guys.

 

[Kudelski37]

JAD had like 70 professional games before he became a regular with the Kings. Caufield played two games in the AHL where he scored 3 goals, then went to the NHL and had like two back to back game winners in OT and has looked very dangerous at other times. There's a reason why one has hype and the other is getting overlooked and it isn't just because one's in Montreal.

That said, who gives a **** about people being hyped up about a prospect and ignoring the Kings ones? I care about the results more than I do what fans on a message board say about them.

EDIT: Also, they aren't scoring at the same rate. JAD would have had 14 goals this season if they were and you can be sure if he had 14 goals in 34 games, people would be talking about him since that would be the same pace as Nathan McKinnon, John Tavares, and Mitch Marner were scoring at.

Caufield 4 goals/19 games = 0.21
JAD 7 goals/34 games = 0.21
I included playoffs for Caufield.

 

[Herby]

I'm confused what you are saying Kudelski,

So am I to believe that had Alex Turcotte returned to school this year, won the Hobey Baker while having one of the best seasons ever by a sophomore in the history of NCAA hockey, then joined the Reign for 2 games where he scored 3 goals and 4 points while being the best player on the ice, then was on the 1st line for the Kings in the playoffs, setting up 2 game winning goals in overtime of the playoffs, one of which to clinch a series, that people wouldn't be ecstatic beyond belief and would instead be saying to "pump the brakes", "it's to soon to say anything" or that he is "going to fizzle out"

I don't know man, my guess is that those wouldn't be the types of things being posted here had a Kings prospect had a season like that. Maybe I am wrong, but in 20 years posting here I never remember our fanbase being that pessimistic about a young player who had that kind of season.

 

[redcard]

The overall consensus by 99.9% of the hockey world was Vegas would be one of the worst teams in the league their first year, if not the worst. Bill Foley was laughed at for saying playoffs in 3 years and Cup in 5. They've been in the final four three of their first four years and the SCF in their first year. Well who is laughing now? So which is it, was the system rigged to help them be an immediate playoff team (like you can only say in retrospect) or was Vegas smart enough to identity talent and build an immediate group of players that were hungry to prove their worth against the teams that discarded them? The notion that Vegas was gift wrapped a contending roster is laughable. Many of their best players were acquired via trade and free agency (Stone, Pacioretty, Martinez, Lehner, Pietrangelo).

I'm not really a fan of that argument. People are idiots. On paper Vegas's post draft line-up did not look impressive, I wasn't concerned with them and neither was 99.9% of the hockey world as you pointed out. But that simply means that everyone was wrong about judging the line-up and says nothing about the fairness of the draft rules. The hockey world largely underestimated the performance of a team stacked with depth but missing stars. That's a completely different discussion to were the rules fair.

If you compare it to previous expansions draft, Vegas had a massive advantage over the previous teams. For the Nashville expansion draft in '98, teams were able to protect as many as 15 players (1st and 2nd year players exempt). Same with Atlanta the next year, and Columbus and Minnesota the following year. Those teams were drafting 4th liners and #6 defenseman at best in successive years. So Min and CBJ got to fight over each teams best 4th liner that wasn't taken the previous year. This compared to the at most 11 players a team could protect in the Vegas expansion draft.

Yes, trades and free agency brought in many of their top players, but they built a lot of that trade capital due to their expansion trades. They made 10 trades for expansion draft considerations that netted them Smith, Tuch, Theadore, 2 1sts, 4 2nds, and 3rd, 5th and 6th. Makes it a lot easier to trade a pair of 2nds for Martinez when you have that much extra draft capital. And those free agents are less likely to sign there if not for the initial success.

I don't believe the league deliberately set the rules in hopes they'd be an immediate playoff team, and Vegas certainly did a wonderful job buying low on a handful of players that were underrated by even their own organizations. But there's no denying that they had a massive advantage over the previous expansion teams and that many teams were severely handcuffed by the reduced protection rules and made bad trades because of it.

 

[BigKing]

I'm not really a fan of that argument. People are idiots. On paper Vegas's post draft line-up did not look impressive, I wasn't concerned with them and neither was 99.9% of the hockey world as you pointed out. But that simply means that everyone was wrong about judging the line-up and says nothing about the fairness of the draft rules. The hockey world largely underestimated the performance of a team stacked with depth but missing stars. That's a completely different discussion to were the rules fair.

If you compare it to previous expansions draft, Vegas had a massive advantage over the previous teams. For the Nashville expansion draft in '98, teams were able to protect as many as 15 players (1st and 2nd year players exempt). Same with Atlanta the next year, and Columbus and Minnesota the following year. Those teams were drafting 4th liners and #6 defenseman at best in successive years. So Min and CBJ got to fight over each teams best 4th liner that wasn't taken the previous year. This compared to the at most 11 players a team could protect in the Vegas expansion draft.

Yes, trades and free agency brought in many of their top players, but they built a lot of that trade capital due to their expansion trades. They made 10 trades for expansion draft considerations that netted them Smith, Tuch, Theadore, 2 1sts, 4 2nds, and 3rd, 5th and 6th. Makes it a lot easier to trade a pair of 2nds for Martinez when you have that much extra draft capital. And those free agents are less likely to sign there if not for the initial success.

I don't believe the league deliberately set the rules in hopes they'd be an immediate playoff team, and Vegas certainly did a wonderful job buying low on a handful of players that were underrated by even their own organizations. But there's no denying that they had a massive advantage over the previous expansion teams and that many teams were severely handcuffed by the reduced protection rules and made bad trades because of it.

I'm one of those idiots. I was actually pleased to drop in the standings the last game of the 2018 season so we could avoid the Ducks since the Kings had played Vegas better that season. One week later, both the Kings and Ducks were out of the playoffs and have never been seen or heard from again...

 

[Herby]

I'm one of those idiots. I was actually pleased to drop in the standings the last game of the 2018 season so we could avoid the Ducks since the Kings had played Vegas better that season. One week later, both the Kings and Ducks were out of the playoffs and have never been seen or heard from again...

I was in the same boat, and that was the consensus view here, everyone wanted Vegas.

We were all idiots.

 

[johnjm22]

I know this sounds like a completely insane argument, and people might interpret it as a gross thing to say, but after the Vegas shooting happened, I knew the Knights would be better than anyone expected.

Give a group and a community something to bond over and rally around; a tragedy, and it energizes and brings out the best in everyone.

I know the analytics guys don't believe in momentum, but it's real, and I think hockey is more reliant on it than most sports. Vegas developed organizational momentum right out of the gate.


It's going to be interesting to see what happens with the Kraken. The success of the Knights raises expectations for Seattle, but I doubt they'll be able to replicate it.

 

[KINGS17]

The overall consensus by 99.9% of the hockey world was Vegas would be one of the worst teams in the league their first year, if not the worst. Bill Foley was laughed at for saying playoffs in 3 years and Cup in 5. They've been in the final four three of their first four years and the SCF in their first year. Well who is laughing now? So which is it, was the system rigged to help them be an immediate playoff team (like you can only say in retrospect) or was Vegas smart enough to identity talent and build an immediate group of players that were hungry to prove their worth against the teams that discarded them? The notion that Vegas was gift wrapped a contending roster is laughable. Many of their best players were acquired via trade and free agency (Stone, Pacioretty, Martinez, Lehner, Pietrangelo).

Meh, a little column A, a little column B.

No doubt the NHL wanted Vegas to be competitive right out of the gate, and if I were the Vegas owner I wouldn't hand over that kind of money for a franchise without the kind of terms and conditions he received.

Then, the Vegas management team went out and did a great job of acquiring talent.

 

[bland]

B

Do you believe the same thing about QB (1 assist in 6 NHL games)?

If Kaliyev or Turcotte were playing like this in the NHL right now are we talking about "waiting to see", "pumping the brakes" or "they might fizzle out"? Ofcourse not, everyone is (rightfully again) beyond ecstatic as they should be for a prospect looking that good at such a young age. Why do we have different rules for Kings prospects vs. other teams prospects?

You can go check the threads about QB, there was (rightfully) lots of optimism about him going forward after his 6 game NHL stint. Some guys you can just tell right away that they have "it". I wanted to see QB play before I was ready to anoint him. I saw him play in the NHL and it was all I needed to see, he had "it". You can just tell with certain guys, Kopi was the same way.

It's not easy for guys to come into this league at such a young age and look as good as both players looked. I don't know why we realize that with some players but not with others.

"Beyond ecstatic"?

Dude, settle down.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I'm confused what you are saying Kudelski,

So am I to believe that had Alex Turcotte returned to school this year, won the Hobey Baker while having one of the best seasons ever by a sophomore in the history of NCAA hockey, then joined the Reign for 2 games where he scored 3 goals and 4 points while being the best player on the ice, then was on the 1st line for the Kings in the playoffs, setting up 2 game winning goals in overtime of the playoffs, one of which to clinch a series, that people wouldn't be ecstatic beyond belief and would instead be saying to "pump the brakes", "it's to soon to say anything" or that he is "going to fizzle out"

I don't know man, my guess is that those wouldn't be the types of things being posted here had a Kings prospect had a season like that. Maybe I am wrong, but in 20 years posting here I never remember our fanbase being that pessimistic about a young player who had that kind of season.

Of course we'd be pumping his tires.

We also wouldn't be going out of their way to say man Turcotte is so good and because of that Hughes Kakko Dach and Byram are regrettable picks.

You're acting like he's a generational prospect which is whatever, you're entitled to a strong opinion, but you're also going out of your way to motherf*** 14 other teams over what's ultimately a miniscule sample size and one before others even get a chance to show what they've got.

You're not receptive to any criticisms of the player, and beyond that, you're pumping him in a way that's derogatory to half the league's front offices and a bunch of rookies-to-be.

 

[bland]

I know this sounds like a completely insane argument, and people might interpret it as a gross thing to say, but after the Vegas shooting happened, I knew the Knights would be better than anyone expected.

Give a group and a community something to bond over and rally around; a tragedy, and it energizes and brings out the best in everyone.

I know the analytics guys don't believe in momentum, but it's real, and I think hockey is more reliant on it than most sports. Vegas developed organizational momentum right out of the gate.


It's going to be interesting to see what happens with the Kraken. The success of the Knights raises expectations for Seattle, but I doubt they'll be able to replicate it.

Its an outstanding point, and one that is continually doubted, minimized or ignored.

The biggest difference between winning and losing is mentality, not talent. There is no advanced metric for confidence or cohesion. Combine both and you are very, very hard to beat.

 

[BigKing]

Its an outstanding point, and one that is continually doubted, minimized or ignored.

The biggest difference between winning and losing is mentality, not talent. There is no advanced metric for confidence or cohesion. Combine both and you are very, very hard to beat.

There's also the chip on the shoulder aspect of being given up by their former teams except this wasn't a bunch of stiffs like in prior expansion drafts.