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WJC: 2020 Team Russia

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SoundAndFury said:
Wait, so what is your issue here? Because you said "I see SKA not developing players well while hoarding them" which they only do at the senior level. You just agreed with Zine that it was the case in the Soviet days as well. So what are you talking about? Other than select couple of talents SKA isn't hoarding anything at the junior level and up until KHL their development is actually quite prolific as is evident watching those boys acquired from Yugra play.
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Well, that is not true and is not what I said.
 
Statsy said:
I FULLY understand what the term means, do you? It means threatening and intimidating your players, and Tikhonov was well known to do this LONG before Larionov said anything about him. His reputation for doing this is among the worst of any coach in the history of the sport! That's saying something.
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Threatening and intimidating players? Seriously?
 
Atas2000 said:
He was a great hockey player. As a person he always was an egoistic turd who turned on every person he owed his greatness to and eventually on his country. He was the ringleader and ideologist of the revolt against Tikhnov. He created the myth of Tikhonov the Tyrant. He continues to preach the adoption of every silly crap out of the West in russian hockey instead of honing our own brand of it and developing it beyond anybody's views in our way to be better, not like others. That one time I laughed hard when he had a weak moment and ranted about today's NHL playing the dumb game. Sure, Igor, you were taught to play a much smarter game on a whole diffrent level and then you crapped on every person who taught you that. Sounds logical.

I am sure he can teach young players a lot of things about the game, but on a personal level he is the worst mentor available. If they take after him we are looking at lost generations. For the record: I don't extpect a person from outside to understand.
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I get you man and I totally feel the same about him. If anyone can state Atleast on fact of what he has done for Russian hockey.. I'd like to know! All he has done is criticize and drive talent away from Russia. Actions speak louder than words..
Makes you wonder how Bragin feels about this..

Specifically game wise, mark my words: Russia's powerplay will be their Achilles heal this tournament.

Anytime they give players too much freedom instead of implementing a system, the PP will always falter at the worst time. Think back to Bykovs latest NT teams when he gave freedom to his players on PP.. what a disaster. When there is pressure, a system will always overcome individualism...
 
Atas2000 said:
He was a great hockey player. As a person he always was an egoistic turd who turned on every person he owed his greatness to and eventually on his country. He was the ringleader and ideologist of the revolt against Tikhnov. He created the myth of Tikhonov the Tyrant. He continues to preach the adoption of every silly crap out of the West in russian hockey instead of honing our own brand of it and developing it beyond anybody's views in our way to be better, not like others. That one time I laughed hard when he had a weak moment and ranted about today's NHL playing the dumb game. Sure, Igor, you were taught to play a much smarter game on a whole diffrent level and then you crapped on every person who taught you that. Sounds logical.

I am sure he can teach young players a lot of things about the game, but on a personal level he is the worst mentor available. If they take after him we are looking at lost generations. For the record: I don't extpect a person from outside to understand.
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I used to feel the way that you do about Tikhonov, and I have never been a fan of Larionov, although his hockey talents and skills were immense, but I have changed my mind a bit. One thing that influenced my thinking was the YouTube video of the ESPN (US Network) documentary "30 on 30; Of Miracles and Men." What struck me was how much players like Tretiak, Petrov, Mikhailov, Yakushev, Fetisov and others absolutely worshipped Tarasov and absolutely hated Tikhonov. Both coaches held training sessions that would literally split your testicles in half, but the reaction from the players to the two was exactly opposite. They universally conveyed their sense that Tarasov loved his players and made their training fun, was like a father to them, while Tikhonov was like a KGB cop who was intent on extracting blood from them!

There is no doubt that Tikhonov contributed some major advancements to the game, particularly in the science of muscle memory, but by the late 1980's, things had changed. The post-war generation in the USSR, the likes of Firsov, Aleksandrov, Mikhailov, and Petrov were phasing out, and the newer generation had experienced less of the hardships of that era. To learn Tikhonov's system and get up to his level, the work effort was herculean but the rewards were almost nonexistent. They earned, in rubles, less than 5,000 in dollars, in comparison to even mediocre NHL players of that era, who earned $400,000. Maybe they had access to a decent apartment, decent food, and a car, which many Soviet citizens did not have, but what little they got was a pittance in comparison to the massive year-long workload they had to endure! In the end, it was simply no longer worth putting up with Tikhonov's crap. They would either go to the NHL, or retire early. They went to the NHL.

It is easy for us fans to expect our players to be great patriots and sacrifice everything with little or nothing in return for their efforts, but in the end, why should they bother? The system simply failed to make it worthwhile to keep on killing themselves.
 
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Yakushev72 said:
I used to feel the way that you do about Tikhonov, and I have never been a fan of Larionov, although his hockey talents and skills were immense, but I have changed my mind a bit. One thing that influenced my thinking was the YouTube video of the ESPN (US Network) documentary "30 on 30; Of Miracles and Men." What struck me was how much players like Tretiak, Petrov, Mikhailov, Yakushev, Fetisov and others absolutely worshipped Tarasov and absolutely hated Tikhonov. Both coaches held training sessions that would literally split your testicles in half, but the reaction from the players to the two was exactly opposite. They universally conveyed their sense that Tarasov loved his players and made their training fun, was like a father to them, while Tikhonov was like a KGB cop who was intent on extracting blood from them!

There is no doubt that Tikhonov contributed some major advancements to the game, particularly in the science of muscle memory, but by the late 1980's, things had changed. The post-war generation in the USSR, the likes of Firsov, Aleksandrov, Mikhailov, and Petrov were phasing out, and the newer generation had experienced less of the hardships of that era. To learn Tikhonov's system and get up to his level, the work effort was herculean but the rewards were almost nonexistent. They earned, in rubles, less than 5,000 in dollars, in comparison to even mediocre NHL players of that era, who earned $400,000. Maybe they had access to a decent apartment, decent food, and a car, which many Soviet citizens did not have, but what little they got was a pittance in comparison to the massive year-long workload they had to endure! In the end, it was simply no longer worth putting up with Tikhonov's crap. They would either go to the NHL, or retire early. They went to the NHL.

It is easy for us fans to expect our players to be great patriots and sacrifice everything with little or nothing in return for their efforts, but in the end, why should they bother? The system simply failed to make it worthwhile to keep on killing themselves.
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One of your best posts.
 
Is the coach still that eternal guy that they will not change no matter what?!?
I am not sure about his name, but I know him visually.

EDIT: ... Valeri Bragin. And yes, I guess he is still here.
Can you tell me your opinion about him? He seems to not be able to win the good medals.
 
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Rogue Leader said:
Is the coach still that eternal guy that they will not change no matter what?!?
I am not sure about his name, but I know him visually.

EDIT: ... Valeri Bragin. And yes, I guess he is still here.
Can you tell me your opinion about him? He seems to not be able to win the good medals.
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He won in 2011 and three times made the finals. He's a good coach, furthermore the kids absolutely love playing for him.
 
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Alex K said:
He won in 2011 and three times made the finals. He's a good coach, furthermore the kids absolutely love playing for him.
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Nice to hear! I know about 2011, but Babcock won in 2008 also ... people change. I had the impression he is very strict and tolerates only players playing in Russia. Happy to hear this, thanks! :)
 
Alex K said:
He won in 2011.
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With the roster like that (Kuznetsov, Tarasenko, Panarin), Bragin should have had no issues winning the gold, but the team was barely squeaking by (2 losses in the round robin, OT win in 1/4 and shootout win in 1/2). The final game was won by the individual skill of the very talented players, not by good coaching. The next year proved Bragin's mediocre coaching again. Absolutely toothless final with two very talented playmakers (Kuznetsov and Kucherov) on ice and the future Vesina winner on the bench. I've been watching all team Russia WJHC games since 2005, and honestly, I don't think Bragin is a very good coach. I haven't seen him making good tactical adjustments in elimination games.
 
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Atas2000 said:
He was a great hockey player. As a person he always was an egoistic turd who turned on every person he owed his greatness to and eventually on his country. He was the ringleader and ideologist of the revolt against Tikhnov. He created the myth of Tikhonov the Tyrant. He continues to preach the adoption of every silly crap out of the West in russian hockey instead of honing our own brand of it and developing it beyond anybody's views in our way to be better, not like others. That one time I laughed hard when he had a weak moment and ranted about today's NHL playing the dumb game. Sure, Igor, you were taught to play a much smarter game on a whole diffrent level and then you crapped on every person who taught you that. Sounds logical.

I am sure he can teach young players a lot of things about the game, but on a personal level he is the worst mentor available. If they take after him we are looking at lost generations. For the record: I don't extpect a person from outside to understand.
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I dont completely understand but thanks for sharing. I was raised with an ignorant POV against everything Russia and so were most people I went to school with, Im only now realizing is a lotta fear about Russia and not a lot of truth. So I dont know much about Russia or Russian hockey so here to learn about the hockey aspect as many of my fave players are Russian
 
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On the theme of Bragin, I think he likes grinder types a lot, just like Znarok. From some matches on past tournaments, think his team play best, when he leave the talented kids play. More freedom, when they are for example down on the match. It is even on a lot of KHL teams, total focus on defence. Russian players are often gifted with speed and skill, why they do not let them play more offensive, more freedom for them?
 
DivochLubo said:
why they do not let them play more offensive, more freedom for them?
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You are right. Bragin mostly relies on grinders, older, bigger, more physical players as it always produces steady results. Giving freedom to a few talented boys in this kind of tournament means taking a huge risk. Although a huge risk could mean a huge reward, he probably is better off with taking no risk and getting a bronze versus taking risk and failing completely.
 
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