GDT: 2020-21 season game 45 LA Kings vs Arizona Coyotes @7:00pm 4/24/21

[tomd]

I happy with the overall direction of the franchise since 2017. I don't really like Robitaille, but the organization has done exactly what they should be doing; hoarding picks/prospects.

It's taken 4 drafts to get the pipeline to where it is now. It will probably take another 2-4 years before it really translates to the on ice product at the NHL level.

People who want the organization to make moves to improve the NHL roster right now are like children who want instant gratification. A patient long term approach is the key to success in nearly all things.

You've just described a 7 year rebuild which I was told authoritatively that no one on this board wanted. And that's if everything goes well and most of the draft picks hit their potential...and it's already obvious that isn't happening.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

You've just described a 7 year rebuild which I was told authoritatively that no one on this board wanted. And that's if everything goes well and most of the draft picks hit their potential...and it's already obvious that isn't happening.

lol what

Easy on the 'they're already all busts' Nostradamus. This is why people don't take you seriously often.

 

[tomd]

lol what

Easy on the 'they're already all busts' Nostradamus. This is why people don't take you seriously often.

Well, perhaps it is because they might have a reading comprehension or interpretation problem. I didn't say anyone was a bust at all. I simply said that it's pretty obvious that some prospects are already looking like they may not hit their full potential. And yes, I do have a list of who I think those prospects are but I'll keep it to myself for now so as not to ignite the indignation of those who believe all prospects are home runs.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Well, perhaps it is because they might have a reading comprehension or interpretation problem. I didn't say anyone was a bust at all. I simply said that it's pretty obvious that some prospects are already looking like they may not hit their full potential. And yes, I do have a list of who I think those prospects are but I'll keep it to myself for now so as not to ignite the indignation of those who believe all prospects are home runs.

It's less about your opinions on each prospect and more about you setting up strawmen to argue with. Knock that part off and it's all good.

 

[tomd]

It's less about your opinions on each prospect and more about you setting up strawmen to argue with. Knock that part off and it's all good.

But that is the key part of the fallacy of a perfect rebuild! There will be prospects (including high 1st rounders potentially) who aren't going to pan out. Having a top 3 prospect pool can make the HF crowd feel great but it doesn't automatically translate to on ice success. That is obvious. Some part of the rebuild must include getting talent from outside the organization. The discussion is when to start that process. I contend it must start this summer for the rebuild to keep moving forward. Others think it should wait for another 2-4 years which means a really bad on-ice product and a deepening of a losing culture.

Anyway, apologies if you thought I was calling prospects busts...I wasn't. Time will separate the wheat from the chaff. But the rebuild must be multi-pronged and really shouldn't have to take 7 years. That is clearly the worst case scenario of Detroit/Buffalo/NJ/Ottawa.

 

[Schmooley]

But the rebuild must be multi-pronged and really shouldn't have to take 7 years. That is clearly the worst case scenario of Detroit/Buffalo/NJ/Ottawa.

A 7 year rebuild is sometimes a culture problem and not a skill problem. Coming into this season the Sabres had a good lineup and that didnt pan out. Its something deeper there than skill. Im watching Hall right now and he looks good on Boston. Hes playing against Carter who went coast to coast a shift ago and has been back checking and picking up his man well in the defensive zone. Mantha also looks good in Washington though Detroit has not had a good roster in years.
The Coyotes are not better than the Kings on paper but they outclassed the Kings yesterday. Toffoli and Forbort are playing better elsewhere also. I dont think the Kings have a great roster but at the same time there is something wrong with the energy and intensity that they play with. In the games where everyone was loose and rolling four lines they looked like a competitive team.

 

[tomd]

A 7 year rebuild is sometimes a culture problem and not a skill problem. Coming into this season the Sabres had a good lineup and that didnt pan out. Its something deeper there than skill. Im watching Hall right now and he looks good on Boston. Hes playing against Carter who went coast to coast a shift ago and has been back checking and picking up his man well in the defensive zone. Mantha also looks good in Washington though Detroit has not had a good roster in years.
The Coyotes are not better than the Kings on paper but they outclassed the Kings yesterday. Toffoli and Forbort are playing better elsewhere also. I dont think the Kings have a great roster but at the same time there is something wrong with the energy and intensity that they play with. In the games where everyone was loose and rolling four lines they looked like a competitive team.

Well you've just made my argument for why Blake should have done a retool and not a rebuild. Players like Forbort, Toffoli, Martinez, and Muzzin are all thriving on different teams. In Toffoli's case, on two different teams. So it was never a talent problem. It was a culture problem that Blake inherited and instead of trying to fix that by adding culture players, he dismantled the team. And the tragedy is that Blake has very little to show for getting rid of two top 4 LHD and a top 6 forward. Just a couple of depth forwards and a couple of draft picks. Bjornfot will be the best of the bunch but even he probably maxes out as a defense first 2nd pairing guy. Nothing dynamic about him.

 

[kingsholygrail]

It took you this long to realize this team wasn't going to the playoffs?

You're misunderstanding my belief there was a chance with actually betting on it.

 

[johnjm22]

You've just described a 7 year rebuild which I was told authoritatively that no one on this board wanted.

Doesn't matter what anyone on this board wants. The right thing to do is the right thing to do.

7 years seems about right.

The Kings drafted Brown 2003, Kopitar and Quick in 2005. They made the playoffs in 2010, 7 years after Brown was drafted.

And that's if everything goes well and most of the draft picks hit their potential...and it's already obvious that isn't happening.

There's about a ~5% chance the current rebuild works out.

There's about a ~.01% chance the strategy you're advocating works out.

I'm defining "works out" as winning the Stanley Cup this decade.

 

[tomd]

Doesn't matter what anyone on this board wants. The right thing to do is the right thing to do.

7 years seems about right.

The Kings drafted Brown 2003, Kopitar and Quick in 2005. They made the playoffs in 2010, 7 years after Brown was drafted.


There's about a ~5% chance the current rebuild works out.

There's about a ~.01% chance the strategy you're advocating works out.

I'm defining "works out" as winning the Stanley Cup this decade.

Going to be fun watching Blake tell the assembled masses at the next STH meeting that the realistic timeframe for a playoff appearance isn't 2022 like he said before...now it's 2026. And BTW, that's pretty optimistic because between now and then we'll have to replace Doughty and Kopitar. But trust me, Blake says, because by then I'll have learned a lot more about this job and will feel comfortable making a trade that actually improves the team and signing a free agent that actually makes sense! I'm learning more every day and Luc has been so encouraging and supportive. But the good news is that season seat prices won't be going up too much because our team payroll will be near the bottom of the league. The on ice product may be tough to watch but just imagine what the future will look like!

 

[KINGS17]

To some degree I agree with tomd when it comes to the culture. Why would we expect Blake and Robitaille to get it done. They never did as Kings players, and right now they are playing checkers. We'll see what happens when the chess pieces are put on the board. I will be pleasantly surprised if the Kings are back in contention by the 2024 playoffs, and by contention I mean getting to the Conference Final, because if they don't what was the point of keeping Kopitar and Doughty.

 

[SFKingshomer]

Going to be fun watching Blake tell the assembled masses at the next STH meeting that the realistic timeframe for a playoff appearance isn't 2022 like he said before...now it's 2026. And BTW, that's pretty optimistic because between now and then we'll have to replace Doughty and Kopitar. But trust me, Blake says, because by then I'll have learned a lot more about this job and will feel comfortable making a trade that actually improves the team and signing a free agent that actually makes sense! I'm learning more every day and Luc has been so encouraging and supportive. But the good news is that season seat prices won't be going up too much because our team payroll will be near the bottom of the league. The on ice product may be tough to watch but just imagine what the future will look like!

They did what needed to be done. Kopitar and Doughty signed retirement deals and have little to no value because of it. The only way to obtain assets to improve is to trade the guys he traded. LA is not a free agent attraction like NYR so that is not an option.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

To some degree I agree with tomd when it comes to the culture. Why would we expect Blake and Robitaille to get it done. They never did as Kings players, and right now they are playing checkers. We'll see what happens when the chess pieces are put on the board. I will be pleasantly surprised if the Kings are back in contention by the 2024 playoffs, and by contention I mean getting to the Conference Final, because if they don't what was the point of keeping Kopitar and Doughty.

I think there are several key points most of us agree on, though:

1. Blake has done amazingly so far--putting together a killer prospect pool most notably.
2. This team is ending this season about where most of us expected, challenging for a playoff spot and falling short in the last couple of weeks.
3. Next season is KEY--as you mention, it's chess time--and that
4. What happens next is the hardest part.

To me, can add the corollary to that to what I said above, and @Schmooley and @tomd alluded to--there, thus far, seems to be a bit of a culture problem. Lots of players leaving and having success elsewhere while this team just implodes upon adversity. In theory, some of that is supposed to be patched with Anderson, Bjornfot, Turcotte, et. al.; on the other, have to keep it from being a Buffalo stink.

I've given Blake a lot of rope but what I saw in that AZ game was absolutely disgusting. If THAT part doesn't start taking MAJOR steps next season, I'll be firmly on the "clean house in full" train, from Robataille to Blake to TM. You can get out-talented; I do NOT want to see a team outworked without making the other team pay for their ice. Give me 12 Kyle Cliffords and 1 Darryl Sutter before I ever have to watch last night again. How do you go a literal entire season without scoring an empty net goal? Completely gutless, anti-clutch.

 

[johnjm22]

Going to be fun watching Blake tell the assembled masses at the next STH meeting that the realistic timeframe for a playoff appearance isn't 2022 like he said before...now it's 2026.

He's not going to say that, nor should he.

He's going to give nebulous political answers just like he should.

I hate to break you the news, but the team is probably going to worse next year than they are this year. And that's also probably what's best for the organization long term.

 

[tomd]

He's not going to say that, nor should he.

He's going to give nebulous political answers just like he should.

I hate to break you the news, but the team is probably going to worse next year than they are this year. And that's also probably what's best for the organization long term.

My response was a bit tongue-in-cheek of course but the truth is that he will need to provide details on the next steps in the rebuild and his expectations for 21-22. He owes those answers to the STH since they need to be able to decide whether to continue to support the team for the upcoming season with their own money. Blake is going to get some tough questions and he needs to answer them. If he plans on the team being worse next year then he needs to say so. If he says the goal is the playoffs then he needs to provide some direction on what moves might be needed to get there. Nebulous won't work and shouldn't. Not to people who are going to be expected to spend potentially tens of thousands on the team.

 

[Sausages]

I think there are several key points most of us agree on, though:

1. Blake has done amazingly so far--putting together a killer prospect pool most notably.
2. This team is ending this season about where most of us expected, challenging for a playoff spot and falling short in the last couple of weeks.
3. Next season is KEY--as you mention, it's chess time--and that
4. What happens next is the hardest part.

To me, can add the corollary to that to what I said above, and @Schmooley and @tomd alluded to--there, thus far, seems to be a bit of a culture problem. Lots of players leaving and having success elsewhere while this team just implodes upon adversity. In theory, some of that is supposed to be patched with Anderson, Bjornfot, Turcotte, et. al.; on the other, have to keep it from being a Buffalo stink.

I've given Blake a lot of rope but what I saw in that AZ game was absolutely disgusting. If THAT part doesn't start taking MAJOR steps next season, I'll be firmly on the "clean house in full" train, from Robataille to Blake to TM. You can get out-talented; I do NOT want to see a team outworked without making the other team pay for their ice. Give me 12 Kyle Cliffords and 1 Darryl Sutter before I ever have to watch last night again. How do you go a literal entire season without scoring an empty net goal? Completely gutless, anti-clutch.

With all due respect, point #2 is misleading. They were only in contact with a playoff spot due to the surprisingly poor form of others. The standings are are very flattering to LA.

I don't think the West division deserves to send a 4th team to the payoffs. The gulf from the top 3 teams down is scary.

 

[ScoreZeGoals]

Yeah, the Kings were only "competing for a playoff spot" because everyone else shit the bed, not because the Kings have made the progress people expected to see

 

[LAKings88]

This team showed flashes of running with Vegas and the Avs this year.

PP needs to be fixed.

Chemistry in the lines needs to be worked out.

Need some legit scorers to come in.

 

[ScoreZeGoals]

It's hard to take the flashes of good play against the Avs and Vegas too seriously, when the Sharks bent them over time and again.

 

[BigKing]

@Raccoon Jesus

There is zero reason to say Blake has been amazing so far. Anyone can suck and draft players. Just drafting with as many picks as he has simply based off of CSB rankings would give them a highly rated prospect pool.

He hasn't done anything worthy of "amazing". That's way too generous. I hope we can call it amazing but the majority of his NHL level moves are trash and everything else is unrealized potential, for the most part.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

With all due respect, point #2 is misleading. They were only in contact with a playoff spot due to the surprisingly poor form of others. The standings are are very flattering to LA.

I don't think the West division deserves to send a 4th team to the payoffs. The gulf from the top 3 teams down is scary.

A weirdass year with a weirdass division doesn't negate my expectation which was they were in the playoff race firmly until around the VGK-COL-COL week. yeah there some technicalities in there just like there are for literally every other team. Other divisions also don't have to play VGK and Colorado so many times, either, for example. In a normal year we don't know how the bottom five in the west match up against everyone else.

Do you really dispute the idea that they ended basically where we expected them to?

@Raccoon Jesus

There is zero reason to say Blake has been amazing so far. Anyone can suck and draft players. Just drafting with as many picks as he has simply based off of CSB rankings would give them a highly rated prospect pool.

He hasn't done anything worthy of "amazing". That's way too generous. I hope we can call it amazing but the majority of his NHL level moves are trash and everything else is unrealized potential, for the most part.

If anyone can suck and do it, why doesn't everyone suck and do it?

He's put together a fantastic prospect pool using multiple assets to reload, full stop. He didn't just sit on his f***ing hands and draft, he made trades like Toffoli for Madden and a pick that also became currency for Faber. I also think he does a great job not subscribing to sunk-cost fallacy, and even though he's made mistakes, he's shown no ego and some expertise in correcting course. Saying there's 'zero reason' to praise him is pretty hyperbolic, and frankly hypocritical, if you're going to focus on and criticize the use of the word 'amazingly' (which fairly is maybe the wrong word but flipping to the other pole doesn't fit either).

I'm pretty sure I acknowledged that what happens next matters.


Frankly both of the quoted posts seem like unnecessarily over-parsing what I'm saying, the team took a step forward as expected and crashed and burned maybe more spectacularly than expected, this is a key offseason in a lot of ways, and people aren't going to be as forgiving of players, management, coaching moving forward. If the general posting population disagrees with that, then I'm misreading everything in a big way.

 

[Martyros]

I never liked the trade for Andersson. I still don't. And Seattle will draft one of him or Clague. What would make it worse is if there was a trade involved to keep Andersson.

 

[johnjm22]

Going from a near empty cupboard to having one of the best prospect pools in the league in just 3 years is pretty amazing.

I'm not sure how much credit Blake should get for that, but it happened under his watch.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

2. This team is ending this season about where most of us expected, challenging for a playoff spot and falling short in the last couple of weeks.

Must disagree with you here...Kings haven't played well in two months (hence, the reason why they haven't been able to put together two or more straight wins in that time). That means, they really only played well for the first 6 weeks of this season....pretty mediocre or crap after that.

 

[LAKings88]

It's hard to take the flashes of good play against the Avs and Vegas too seriously, when the Sharks bent them over time and again.

Kings did that in reverse to the Blues.

Everyone was tired of the slow possession grinding team. It was stale. Now they are trying to add skill and speed.

It’s a balance. Good teams figure it out. This team isn’t near complete.