Speculation: 2020-21 LA Kings News/Roster/Rumors Discussion Part VI

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If we bring Eichel here and hold onto Byfield I think Byfield runs neck and neck with Eichel for years. It would be Eichel the first couple years and then it would be Byfield at the same level just with less offense but more defense. I'm real high on Byfield though lol.

But yes I agree with the sentiment. If Eichel comes here he's a franchise cornerstone that has a big impact for a decade if we are able to hold on to him.

Which is why I struggle so hard to understand the people that think we are "mortgaging our future" by making aggressive moves to aquire young superstars. Lol that is the dream scenario, praying for tremendous luck in the lottery and drafting the perfect guy is the Ultimate luck play.

I don't really get it either. It's essentially the same camp who is okay with the 30+ year olds making 10 million + that are okay with those players roles being glorified babysitters, but to trade for a young super star is suddenly a luxury the Kings can't afford? I dont get it. If we care so much about the youth, shouldn't the Kings be considering to bring in a superstar who's closer to their age that's already...a superstar .... that can bridge the gap between the very old players and the very young players? Shouldn't there be someone in the middle who's still got a lot of time left in their career? I seriously think you can make an argument both ways, honestly. However, I disagree with the notion that it's "damaging". I see a young superstar being good for the older players and young players since they will make both sides happy. I don't see an 18-19 year old rookie Byfield inspiring hope in older players just because he isn't established. It will give everyone hope and a reason to try.


I think it's also paramount that the Kings fire Tmac. He hasn't established any kind of a culture on the Kings yet and he's been here for a good amount of time. He implements a 1-3-1 playstyle that clearly isn't working for the Kings. He's shown zero reason to have any confidence in him. The Kings have thoroughly played like mental midgets under him, and their play has been garbage. He has to go. And AGAIN, every team that's been under him has had negative identities. It's followed him around in his NHL career. He's not a good coach for the Kings.
 
I’m still a firm believer that if the GMs name wasn’t Rob Blake and still making the same moves, he wouldn’t get half the criticism he does now.

Blake hate from his player does hasn’t gone away, even though the 2 cup wins should’ve soothed the fan base.
 
Let's assume, for a moment, that the Kings get Jack Eichel. Let's ignore the cost for a moment.

What are your measurable metrics for determining it was a good trade for the Kings?

- If Eichel plays 70+ games and scores over a point per game for the rest of his contract?
- if the Kings win the cup once while he's on the team
- if the Kings make it to the third round or later at least three times during his contract
- other

Because before you decide on the price you're willing to pay, you have to determine what targets are achievable because of Eichel and what you're willing to give up to get him.

Myself, there isn't a metric that would make it a good trade for the Kings, considering the offered price tags, that would be realistic or attainable.

- his health is a question mark. He's played 70+ games twice since joining the league, and he's hit the point-per-game rate twice. This is before we count how the Kings seemingly have decreased production in LA.
- winning the cup requires a LOT to go right, and one major player won't make the difference
- becoming a regular deep playoff performer requires prospects to mature anyway, so why rush?

So assuming the Kings trade for Eichel and it's the end of the 2025-26 season. How will you look at the trade and determine if it was a good one Blake made?
My goal would be being a cup favorite (let's say top 5 Vegas odds) for 5 years. Or winning one cup.

But their are so many unknowns. For one I don't think anyone can project that if we don't also project some steals outside of the first round (toffoli, quick, voynov, etc...) Another issue is I think you also have to trust the gm not to blow the cap situation that he has been gifted. And then you also need management to win most of the trades.

Putting together an amazing team long term isn't a easy thing

But boy: Eichel+Byfield+Doughty+Kopitar+Petersen+Cap Space+a Deep prospect pool is a hell of a foundation.
 
I actually don't disagree with either of you but I guess I'm still not convinced that Blake's plan is to do anything beyond the minimum this summer. I think he is very much committed to a long rebuild and hoping that 11 and 8 will be good organization men who'll fall into line with that approach. Doughty publicly shattered that idea though. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if Blake was as emotionally attached to picks and prospects as some of the posters here. Going to be very interesting to hear Blake's thoughts at the STH meeting.

I'll be the first guy to take a dump on Blake but I'll say it again: I hope he turns out to be the best GM in Kings history. That said, the only positive that will come from him screwing this all up will be me getting to drag his ass for years all over this forum.

I don't want that to happen though because I much rather prefer that the Kings win and entertain me.

You have been against any rebuild from Day 1 and hate the idea of it just on principle alone. You--unlike me--might actually want Blake to fail just so you can say you were right and the rebuild was always the wrong idea. I mean, didn't you become a Ducks fan? Not saying that to be an ass or anything but your outlook on this is very fatalistic to the point where it seems like you want him to do nothing and see Doughty demand a trade. You've convicted him of the crime before he even gets a chance to commit it this summer.

You've asked "why keep 11/8 during a really long rebuild" and now think that Blake just "hoped" that his two highest paid, long contract players would just be cool with being a bad team for five years straight. Well, the answer to your question is that Blake never planned on doing a "really long rebuild". Of course, you also have to realize that a rebuild doesn't end when you make the playoffs so Blake can add this summer, the team can make the playoffs next season and they could still be a rebuilding team: they are just closer to getting their certificate of occupancy than they were before.

If you actually believe that he just hoped 11/8--especially 8--would be cool with missing the playoffs for five straight seasons and he either didn't tell them the plan or flat-out lied to them, then you are assuming that Blake is a complete idiot. I mean, do you plan on drafting Top 5 for two years in a row and keep two $10MM+ players so you can finally make the playoffs five years after that first Top 5 draft pick? Both of those picks will be on their second contracts by then. It's a ludicrous thought.

Now, maybe he doesn't do much this summer and he kicks the can down to looking at making moves during the season, at the TDL and then next offseason. Maybe that happens and he'll have to deal with Doughty. Even then, he wouldn't be asking Doughty to just suck it up for 2-3 more seasons so I think he could handle him.
 
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Look, Eichel has talent no doubt but this isn’t the first time people have questioned his leadership/intangibles. Is he going to come here with no depth around him and whine again? Let him go to NY and be the end of it. Let’s see what we have with the kids for another season and we’ll add to them when we’re actually taking the next step.
 
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I'm still totally clueless when everyone talks about his lack of leadership and intangibles. Buffalo is an absolute DUMPSTER FIRE and it's gotten worse. Show me one player that wouldn't say enough's enough after the last year. I don't blame him at all, Buffalo needs to be completely blown up, top to bottom. Everyone needs to go. When you see how horribly the team's managed, I wouldn't trust their medical staff either.

His 2019-2020 season is the best indication of what he can do when somewhat healthy - 68 games played, 36 goals, 78 points. He's a 40/100 player on a stable team.
 
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I'll be the first guy to take a dump on Blake but I'll say it again: I hope he turns out to be the best GM in Kings history. That said, the only positive that will come from him screwing this all up will be me getting to drag his ass for years all over this forum.

I don't want that to happen though because I much rather prefer that the Kings win and entertain me.

You have been against any rebuild from Day 1 and hate the idea of it just on principle alone. You--unlike me--might actually want Blake to fail just so you can say you were right and the rebuild was always the wrong idea. I mean, didn't you become a Ducks fan? Not saying that to be an ass or anything but your outlook on this is very fatalistic to the point where it seems like you want him to do nothing and see Doughty demand a trade. You've convicted him of the crime before he even gets a chance to commit it this summer.

You've asked "why keep 11/8 during a really long rebuild" and now think that Blake just "hoped" that his two highest paid, long contract players would just be cool with being a bad team for five years straight. Well, the answer to your question is that Blake never planned on doing a "really long rebuild". Of course, you also have to realize that a rebuild doesn't end when you make the playoffs so Blake can add this summer, the team can make the playoffs next season and they could still be a rebuilding team: they are just closer to getting their certificate of occupancy than they were before.

If you actually believe that he just hoped 11/8--especially 8--would be cool with missing the playoffs for five straight seasons and he either didn't tell them the plan or flat-out lied to them, then you are assuming that Blake is a complete idiot. I mean, do you plan on drafting Top 5 for two years in a row and keep two $10MM+ players so you can finally make the playoffs five years after that first Top 5 draft pick? Both of those picks will be on their second contracts by then. It's a ludicrous thought.

Now, maybe he doesn't do much this summer and he kicks the can down to looking at making moves during the season, at the TDL and then next offseason. Maybe that happens and he'll have to deal with Doughty. Even then, he wouldn't be asking Doughty to just suck it up for 2-3 more seasons so I think he could handle him.

Well again, I'm more of a hockey fan than anything and I watch both socal teams. I'm no longer emotionally invested in the Kings so I can view what's going on with some detachment and hopefully objectivity.

As to Blake (and I've said this many times), I can't think of a comparable situation in my almost 50 years of watching hockey. A team starts a rebuild but keeps it's 5 highest paid veterans? A team trades all of it's supporting cast for picks and prospects and replaces them with no one? A team then expects to be a playoff contender less than 3 years later? These are all facts including Blake's pronouncement about being playoff competitive in 21-22. None of it made sense from the start for me. It's never been done before and the likelihood of a rookie GM pulling it off is/was next to zero.

So now you've got huge gaping holes in the lineup, your star player calls out management to make significant changes now, and your vaunted prospect pool is nowhere near ready to assume big roles next year or possibly even the year after that. And now we are to believe that miraculous changes will happen this summer? It just seems like a bridge too far. I honestly don't believe Blake knows what he is doing. I really believe that. He has an incredibly tall mountain to climb this summer to fill several holes with nothing but picks and prospects to offer in return. The UFA pool is poor and unrealistic to expect to catch any big fish. The whole thing just seems impossible to me. And that's why I continue to post on this board...this team's precarious situation is far more interesting at the present time than the Ducks are (I'm happy to give you my thoughts on the Ducks if you're interested).
 
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If a couple of these kids step up and have breakout years (mainly Vilardi and Byfield, and Kempe and Iafallo taking a big step, both with 25-35 goal seasons), the Kings will be very close to the playoffs. If they acquire Eichel (or a serious impact player which I expect), they are definitely playoff team.
 
Well again, I'm more of a hockey fan than anything and I watch both socal teams. I'm no longer emotionally invested in the Kings so I can view what's going on with some detachment and hopefully objectivity.

As to Blake (and I've said this many times), I can't think of a comparable situation in my almost 50 years of watching hockey. A team starts a rebuild but keeps it's 5 highest paid veterans? A team trades all of it's supporting cast for picks and prospects and replaces them with no one? A team then expects to be a playoff contender less than 3 years later? These are all facts including Blake's pronouncement about being playoff competitive in 21-22. None of it made sense from the start for me. It's never been done before and the likelihood of a rookie GM pulling it off is/was next to zero.

So now you've got huge gaping holes in the lineup, your star player calls out management to make significant changes now, and your vaunted prospect pool is nowhere near ready to assume big roles next year or possibly even the year after that. And now we are to believe that miraculous changes will happen this summer? It just seems like a bridge too far. I honestly don't believe Blake knows what he is doing. I really believe that. He has an incredibly tall mountain to climb this summer to fill several holes with nothing but picks and prospects to offer in return. The UFA pool is poor and unrealistic to expect to catch any big fish. The whole thing just seems impossible to me. And that's why I continue to post on this board...this team's precarious situation is far more interesting at the present time than the Ducks are (I'm happy to give you my thoughts on the Ducks if you're interested).


I really don't think this is that unusual. What do you think happens when a Cup winner fades?

Detroit kept Datsyuk and Zetterberg.
Chicago still has Toews, Kane.
Boston kept Chara, Bergeron.

I mean to me it's semantics where you draw the line at 'supporting cast.' Is Seabrook that different from Muzzin? Kris Draper that different from Trevor Lewis? Holmstrom that different from Brown? Lidstrom, Doughty?
 
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If a couple of these kids step up and have breakout years (mainly Vilardi and Byfield, and Kempe and Iafallo taking a big step, both with 25-35 goal seasons), the Kings will be very close to the playoffs. If they acquire Eichel (or a serious impact player which I expect), they are definitely playoff team.


Agree--though I think it's fair to question if that's a plan or a prayer. The "if"s tell me it's more of the latter, but it might be the best option.

For all we know all their internal metrics point to youth.
 
Well again, I'm more of a hockey fan than anything and I watch both socal teams. I'm no longer emotionally invested in the Kings so I can view what's going on with some detachment and hopefully objectivity.

As to Blake (and I've said this many times), I can't think of a comparable situation in my almost 50 years of watching hockey. A team starts a rebuild but keeps it's 5 highest paid veterans? A team trades all of it's supporting cast for picks and prospects and replaces them with no one? A team then expects to be a playoff contender less than 3 years later? These are all facts including Blake's pronouncement about being playoff competitive in 21-22. None of it made sense from the start for me. It's never been done before and the likelihood of a rookie GM pulling it off is/was next to zero.

So now you've got huge gaping holes in the lineup, your star player calls out management to make significant changes now, and your vaunted prospect pool is nowhere near ready to assume big roles next year or possibly even the year after that. And now we are to believe that miraculous changes will happen this summer? It just seems like a bridge too far. I honestly don't believe Blake knows what he is doing. I really believe that. He has an incredibly tall mountain to climb this summer to fill several holes with nothing but picks and prospects to offer in return. The UFA pool is poor and unrealistic to expect to catch any big fish. The whole thing just seems impossible to me. And that's why I continue to post on this board...this team's precarious situation is far more interesting at the present time than the Ducks are (I'm happy to give you my thoughts on the Ducks if you're interested).

My question regarding being a Ducks fan wasn't meant as a dig but I seem to remember you jumping ship and being anti-Kings. Maybe you were anti-Lombardi for some reason? That seems like it rings a bell but, regardless, it is hard to say that there still isn't some emotional investment based on how many posts you've made on the topic. Again, that isn't a dig but just how I see it.

As for keeping the five highest paid veterans, I assume this is 11/8/23/77/32, correct? I think the answer is pretty easy (look at this from January 2019 when Muzzin trade is made):

11/8 - Still looked at as long-term solutions
23 - Three more seasons at $5.875MM. Only a contender would want to add him but can a contender add $5.875M and would they want to for Brown? Toss in cap floor, Kings tenure etc.
77 - Three more seasons at $5.2MM and he looked worse than Brown. Finally able to trade him with only one year left and also retaining. Kings also weren't paying a lot for him in actual dollars.
32 - Four more seasons at $5.8MM. Pretty much labeled as cooked in 2019. So many years left on an aging goalie that relies on athleticism. Who is signing up for that?

Even with retention, the Kings weren't going to get much for 23/77/32 and Blake never wanted to trade 11/8. I'm sure Blake would have moved them--I bet he tried--but the return and likely retention wasn't worth it in the grand scheme of things. They'd have to replace them with someone and still hit the cap floor. If they can finish next to dead last, 5th worst and now 8th worst with these guys while simply not paying anyone else, then who cares? Fans love these dudes so go ahead and suck with them then suck without them.

Brown is in the last year of the deal now and he will probably be approached by Blake about going to a contender at the tread deadline in the event the Kings are out of the race. Quick's cap hit is so rough but the actual dollars are low. Still, I think he just assumes the back-up role but more like a 1C v. the back up goalie that only plays 10 games a season. He could also be approached for a trade at some point if there is a playoff type team that sees a goalie injury during the season and needs something. Kings could retain like they did on Carter.

So it isn't wild at all, really. Blake wants to keep two of the veterans and there wasn't really a market for the other three due to their cap hits. He finally moved another one of them the moment he could do so. One of them is now in the last year of his deal. He didn't *have* to dump them to still be able to suck: he just emptied the rest of the roster since he could get assets for them.

There are several holes that need to be filled for the team to be a contender; however, there aren't necessarily as many holes to fill to simply be a playoff team. The glut of space and cheap assets can go a long way.
 
I really don't think this is that unusual. What do you think happens when a Cup winner fades?

Detroit kept Datsyuk and Zetterberg.
Chicago still has Toews, Kane.
Boston kept Chara, Bergeron.

I mean to me it's semantics where you draw the line at 'supporting cast.' Is Seabrook that different from Muzzin? Kris Draper that different from Trevor Lewis? Holmstrom that different from Brown? Lidstrom, Doughty?

Dont forget Anaheim has kept a majority of their veterans during their rebuild.

Vancouver kept the Sedins all the way to retirement.
 
I really don't think this is that unusual. What do you think happens when a Cup winner fades?

Detroit kept Datsyuk and Zetterberg.
Chicago still has Toews, Kane.
Boston kept Chara, Bergeron.

I mean to me it's semantics where you draw the line at 'supporting cast.' Is Seabrook that different from Muzzin? Kris Draper that different from Trevor Lewis? Holmstrom that different from Brown? Lidstrom, Doughty?

But none of those teams auctioned off their entire supporting cast for picks and prospects.

Detroit was still making the playoffs until the last two years of Zetterberg. Datsyuk left Detroit having made the playoffs in his last year there.

Chicago has Toews and Kane but they've done a rolling retool swapping players in and out. There hasn't been a wholesale sell-off of talented players.

Boston just keeps making the playoffs and never seems to rebuild.

11 and 8 are 3 years removed from the playoffs and I think most people think the team is probably another 3 years away unless Blake totally mortgages the future this summer.

I'm not anti-Kings or pro-Kings. I'd love to see them make the playoffs next year so that I can watch some local playoff hockey. I don't think I'm being unrealistically critical though. Realistically, to even have a sniff at the playoffs the Kings need 2 top 6 forwards with prior NHL success and a top 4 LHD with similar experience. That's the minimum. Those 3 players are going to cost a TON in prospects and picks. The alternative is to be really bad again and all of the positives and negatives that come with that.
 
Dont forget Anaheim has kept a majority of their veterans during their rebuild.

Vancouver kept the Sedins all the way to retirement.

Anaheim and Vancouver are more of a normal situation...their star players just succumbed to Father Time or got injured. While their stars were in their prime, both teams were making the playoffs every year.
 
My question regarding being a Ducks fan wasn't meant as a dig but I seem to remember you jumping ship and being anti-Kings. Maybe you were anti-Lombardi for some reason? That seems like it rings a bell but, regardless, it is hard to say that there still isn't some emotional investment based on how many posts you've made on the topic. Again, that isn't a dig but just how I see it.

As for keeping the five highest paid veterans, I assume this is 11/8/23/77/32, correct? I think the answer is pretty easy (look at this from January 2019 when Muzzin trade is made):

11/8 - Still looked at as long-term solutions
23 - Three more seasons at $5.875MM. Only a contender would want to add him but can a contender add $5.875M and would they want to for Brown? Toss in cap floor, Kings tenure etc.
77 - Three more seasons at $5.2MM and he looked worse than Brown. Finally able to trade him with only one year left and also retaining. Kings also weren't paying a lot for him in actual dollars.
32 - Four more seasons at $5.8MM. Pretty much labeled as cooked in 2019. So many years left on an aging goalie that relies on athleticism. Who is signing up for that?

Even with retention, the Kings weren't going to get much for 23/77/32 and Blake never wanted to trade 11/8. I'm sure Blake would have moved them--I bet he tried--but the return and likely retention wasn't worth it in the grand scheme of things. They'd have to replace them with someone and still hit the cap floor. If they can finish next to dead last, 5th worst and now 8th worst with these guys while simply not paying anyone else, then who cares? Fans love these dudes so go ahead and suck with them then suck without them.

Brown is in the last year of the deal now and he will probably be approached by Blake about going to a contender at the tread deadline in the event the Kings are out of the race. Quick's cap hit is so rough but the actual dollars are low. Still, I think he just assumes the back-up role but more like a 1C v. the back up goalie that only plays 10 games a season. He could also be approached for a trade at some point if there is a playoff type team that sees a goalie injury during the season and needs something. Kings could retain like they did on Carter.

So it isn't wild at all, really. Blake wants to keep two of the veterans and there wasn't really a market for the other three due to their cap hits. He finally moved another one of them the moment he could do so. One of them is now in the last year of his deal. He didn't *have* to dump them to still be able to suck: he just emptied the rest of the roster since he could get assets for them.

There are several holes that need to be filled for the team to be a contender; however, there aren't necessarily as many holes to fill to simply be a playoff team. The glut of space and cheap assets can go a long way.

I guess my point is that you don't sell off all the supporting cast for picks and prospects and then expect to be back in the playoffs in 3 years. The only way that happens is if you draft a bunch of prospects and then turn around and trade them all for immediate help in year 3. And that is what is going to happen this summer in order for the team to improve.

My bigger point is that because of the long term contracts of 8/11/32/23/77, 2019 was a bad time to purge the roster. Turn it over and change the chemistry? Sure. Selectively trade one or two players for future type returns? Sure. Total teardown? No. It's just too hard to acquire talent to give it away for mostly 2nd round picks and bottom six prospects.
 
I guess my point is that you don't sell off all the supporting cast for picks and prospects and then expect to be back in the playoffs in 3 years. The only way that happens is if you draft a bunch of prospects and then turn around and trade them all for immediate help in year 3. And that is what is going to happen this summer in order for the team to improve.

My bigger point is that because of the long term contracts of 8/11/32/23/77, 2019 was a bad time to purge the roster. Turn it over and change the chemistry? Sure. Selectively trade one or two players for future type returns? Sure. Total teardown? No. It's just too hard to acquire talent to give it away for mostly 2nd round picks and bottom six prospects.

What was the alternative? Teams don’t make “hockey trades” for UFA like Pearson, Muzzin, Toffoli, etc. It’s great living in a world where these guys are traded for young roster players but that doesn’t happen.
 
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What was the alternative? Teams don’t make “hockey trades” for UFA like Pearson, Muzzin, Toffoli, etc. It’s great living in a world where these guys are traded for young roster players but that doesn’t happen.

Actually you could have kept Muzzin, Martinez, and Toffoli as one option and tried to bring in some additional players to augment the roster. Bring in some competitive SOB's to change the culture and reinvigorate the players. IMO the team should have held out for a rebuild for as long as possible. Continue to draft and develop prospects but keep the roster competitive.
 
No team with multiple monster salaries at 10 mill per or more has won a cup and now we want a 3rd.

By the time the Kings are actually contenting Kopitar will be on his next deal and the cap would have skyrocketed. This new TV deal is a game changer once we're done with this COVID bullshit.

If the Kings suck hard again next season won't have to worry about Doughty's contract because he'll be shipped out.
 
Actually you could have kept Muzzin, Martinez, and Toffoli as one option and tried to bring in some additional players to augment the roster. Bring in some competitive SOB's to change the culture and reinvigorate the players. IMO the team should have held out for a rebuild for as long as possible. Continue to draft and develop prospects but keep the roster competitive.


Easier said than done with no cap space or young talent to trade at the time.
 
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