Speculation: 2020-21 LA Kings News/Roster/Rumors Discussion Part VI

[BigKing]

That and who is to say he's happy here? He wants to win and if they struggle then he may pout. I don't want any part of Eichel unless he comes cheap.

Who is to say that Turcotte, Vilardi and "secondary prospect" come close to being an Eichel?

I use that trade proposal as the example but I'm really just arguing your point with a counterargument. A compelling case can be made for either side and, honestly, that 2nd proposal from the Sabres beat writer does seem cheap, assuming Eichel is healthy. Therein lies the rub, however.

This just further emphasizes the fact that Robbie B is finally going to have to be a GM again because everything since deciding to rebuild has been easy. Maybe he does just sit on his hands and continue to do nothing at the NHL level (I doubt it) but even then, that would be a serious decision whereas it has been a no-brainer to punt on the last two summers.

 

[Gjwrams]

I hate both deals the Sabres beat writer suggested for the Kings acquiring Eichel.

1. Los Angeles sends center Quinton Byfield, a secondary prospect and goalie Jonathan Quick to the Sabres for Eichel
   
2. Los Angeles sends centers Alex Turcotte and Gabriel Vilardi, a secondary prospect and goalie Jonathan Quick to the Sabres for Eichel

.

Byfield will NOT be moved. I just can't see a scenario in which that happens unless it's for Eichel AND Dahlin together, and that isn't happening. The Sabers fans/writers are hoping that they will get a kings ransom for Eichel. I just don't see it happening. Healthy Eichel coming off 25-30 goal season, maybe. Herniated disc Eichel.....Nope!

 

[Mats26]

Byfield will NOT be moved. I just can't see a scenario in which that happens unless it's for Eichel AND Dahlin together, and that isn't happening. The Sabers fans/writers are hoping that they will get a king's ransom for Eichel. I just don't see it happening. Healthy Eichel coming off 25-30 goal season, maybe. Herniated disc Eichel.....Nope!

Agreed!
Some GMs are saying Eichel is untradeable right now. Who wants to pay this randsom until he gets healthy.

 

[johnjm22]

What sucks about all this, is that there's a large element of luck involved in building a contender.

You just have to get lucky at some point to land elite players.

Even if you strategically rebuild, and have a great scouting staff, you still have to be lucky to draw the right draft position. And you have to be lucky to be drafting in a year where there's even that elite player available to you.

 

[tomd]

While the contract numbers are high, there are teams that would still have made it work somehow for a Doughty or Kopitar trade. You'd have to deal with the different NMC stuff so that makes it more difficult but , yes, Blake could have traded them if he was planning on flat-out sucking for five seasons or more: he's not.

We've talked about how the DL rebuild was different in the sense that he already had his #1C waiting for him in Kopitar. He thought he got his goalie in Bernier but he already had Quick waiting for him. He had Visnovsky but immediately moved to get Johnson and then was fortunate to get Doughty so he moved on from Viz. As far as wingers, he went out and got O'Sullivan and already had Frolov, Brown and Cammalleri.

What about Blake? It's already been said numerous times that Blake was dealt a worse hand than Lombardi since Dean inherited 11/23/32 and he didn't have the contract issues. Not arguing this fact. So where does that leave Blake? Well, Blake did inherit a team that went to the playoffs in his first season with a #1C that won the Selke and was a Hart finalist along with a #1D that was a Norris finalist. Everything goes to shit the next season, Bluc says they are rebuilding and Blake proceeds to move out basically every veteran but he keeps the teams two best players, knowing that they will pay them a ton of money for 2-3 seasons of suck. Why?

Well, sucking doesn't guarantee that the lottery picks wind up being Kopitar or Doughty level talents. If you believe that these two guys are going to still be top performers through the end of their contracts, why move them just so you can *hope* to sign a UFA of their caliber (will cost more than their current cap hits and won't be 23 years old) or *hope* that the picks/prospects you get are amazing? You already have to do the latter so why don't you hedge a bit by hoping the picks/prospects are amazing and can be added to two guys that, face it, are legit 1st line/1st pairing guys.

Blake has supposedly put together the best prospect pool in the league. He now gets to start adding these guys to a team that still has two very good players at 1C and 1D. He still sees these two as part of the solution. COVID and flat cap can change things since you'd usually bank on their cap hits being minimized by a rising cap but, even then, the team has so much space even now and Kopitar's contract ends in three seasons.

I think your stance on this depends on if you think Blake's first concern is making 11 and 8 happy. I'm not a Blake fan but I don't think I can accuse him of this: I truly believe it is a hockey decision. If he moves a bunch of young assets for some 30 year old guys then I'll say it but if he moves some unknowns for a sure thing in their mid-20s, that just seems like the natural evolution of a rebuild as you move some lottery tickets into actual dollars. You don't trade in all of your lottery tickets though and that's where Blake is going to have to prove himself.

Good post.

I would only emphasize that Blake has left himself only one option to improve the team in the near term...trading prospects and picks. There isn't much at the NHL level that has value besides 11 and 8. Such is the conundrum of the current rebuild and why it just never made sense to me.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

No--but if they're available, why would you say no?

Kopitar had vets to eat all the hard defensive minutes so he could excel.

Doughty had a number of partners who were there to insulate him.

They were still 'the guy', but it's not like they walked into the league as the two-way defensive stalwarts they are either, they had softer minutes until we could take the training wheels off.

I'ts a myth in that it's not the only way to do it, but why would you take a franchise with Kopitar and Doughty and replace them with Stastny and whothef***ever just to save a few million when you're already having a hard time keeping above the cap floor?

Like KP said--"Nobody has given a convincing argument against letting players grow into their roles with Kopitar and Doughty aside from "we can get more prospects (who also might not work out)" and "we can get other (inferior) players to do what they're doing""

I guess we’ll see what happens.

 

[BigKing]

Good post.

I would only emphasize that Blake has left himself only one option to improve the team in the near term...trading prospects and picks. There isn't much at the NHL level that has value besides 11 and 8. Such is the conundrum of the current rebuild and why it just never made sense to me.

That's the point though: he already traded the majority of what he could. Outside for 23 and 32, those with some value on this roster are considered part of the solution. Not untouchable by any means but there is no reason to be in a hurry to move guys like Roy or Kempe.

The whole point was to get younger (check) and eventually better (working on it). You get all that cap space and acquire all of those prospects so you are in a position to strike when opportunity knocks. Lombardi traded most of his vets with value at the start of the rebuild as well. He actually traded young players/picks for Williams and Smyth before they ever made the playoffs. O'Sullivan was a fan favorite with super high hopes pinned to him and Quincey got picked up for free and looked like a fixture on the blue line going forward.

It has been an inevitability that Blake was going to trade some of these prospects/young guys for proven talent at some point. The real argument--one that will be made daily on this board for the next couple of years probably--is whether that time is now. I know where you stand. I do think the time is now but that all depends on the player(s) being received and what's going the other way. It doesn't necessarily need to be a blockbuster of epic proportions but it is time for us to see how smart Blake is.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I guess we’ll see what happens.

I guess, but if we were given the list of free agents for this year and it included Kopitar and Doughty, everyone here would be clamoring for Kopitar and Doughty.

 

[Sol]

Who is to say that Turcotte, Vilardi and "secondary prospect" come close to being an Eichel?

I use that trade proposal as the example but I'm really just arguing your point with a counterargument. A compelling case can be made for either side and, honestly, that 2nd proposal from the Sabres beat writer does seem cheap, assuming Eichel is healthy. Therein lies the rub, however.

This just further emphasizes the fact that Robbie B is finally going to have to be a GM again because everything since deciding to rebuild has been easy. Maybe he does just sit on his hands and continue to do nothing at the NHL level (I doubt it) but even then, that would be a serious decision whereas it has been a no-brainer to punt on the last two summers.

I think this is one of the biggest mistakes people make in general. Eichel is already a great player in the current NHL. Holding out hope that Turcotte will become that player is based on pure hope. Vilardi will be a solid second line player in his career I think from what I've seen. If Eichel is healthy. The Kings best player for the next 6-7 years is going to be him. He's extremely good and I dont think we have anyone that is as good as him.

 

[tomd]

That's the point though: he already traded the majority of what he could. Outside for 23 and 32, those with some value on this roster are considered part of the solution. Not untouchable by any means but there is no reason to be in a hurry to move guys like Roy or Kempe.

The whole point was to get younger (check) and eventually better (working on it). You get all that cap space and acquire all of those prospects so you are in a position to strike when opportunity knocks. Lombardi traded most of his vets with value at the start of the rebuild as well. He actually traded young players/picks for Williams and Smyth before they ever made the playoffs. O'Sullivan was a fan favorite with super high hopes pinned to him and Quincey got picked up for free and looked like a fixture on the blue line going forward.

It has been an inevitability that Blake was going to trade some of these prospects/young guys for proven talent at some point. The real argument--one that will be made daily on this board for the next couple of years probably--is whether that time is now. I know where you stand. I do think the time is now but that all depends on the player(s) being received and what's going the other way. It doesn't necessarily need to be a blockbuster of epic proportions but it is time for us to see how smart Blake is.

The 11/8 timebomb was always ticking and it finally exploded. I really think it is out of Blake's hands and is an AEG call at this point. They know that there are no good alternatives. The decisions made in the next 2-3 months will affect the franchise for the next 5-10 years. The entire business operation of the Kings hangs in the balance. The AEG bigwigs will make the call. Blake will either execute the direction or be gone.

 

[BigKing]

I guess, but if we were given the list of free agents for this year and it included Kopitar and Doughty, everyone here would be clamoring for Kopitar and Doughty.

I just like to imagine a world where the Kings have another center that can make it so Kopitar is playing under 20 minutes a night.

Bergeron is Kopitar's usual comp. He's played over 20 minutes a game twice: 2006 and 2007.

Kopitar has played under 20 minutes a game in only one season: 2015 at 19:23. Since that season, his lowest number is 20:46 in 2017 and his highest is 22:18! In 20-f***ing-19!!!!

For all the grief he gets on here, he had 50 points in 56 games while winning 57% of his face-offs at 21:11 minutes of ice time per night.

Look at the scoring leaders this season. He's tied for like 26th but his FO% is better than everyone in front of him except for O'Reilly. I mean, it is a pretty good season. He's also playing more minutes than most everyone ahead of him on that list as well. He's 7th in TOI for all forwards. Doughty led the entire f***ing league.

I completely believe in not building around these guys for the future as that is not a viable long-term plan for 10 years of contending; however, these guys are legit NHL players and their cap hits aren't insane by any means at this point in time. I actually have high hopes for Kopitar to be a valuable player for the rest of his contract and possibly beyond but limiting his minutes a bit needs to happen. I think adding long-term solutions this off-season while not completely mortgaging the future is the path that should be taken.

This is why I liked the idea of Eichel earlier this season. The injury is really concerning though. If he checked out though, he's still in his prime when Kopitar's contract is up and you'd still have Byfield/Eichel as a 1-2 punch moving forward. In the meantime, you could have all three and I don't think Kopitar pulls a Peyton Manning and is just useless at some point during the remainder of his contract.

 

[BigKing]

I think this is one of the biggest mistakes people make in general. Eichel is already a great player in the current NHL. Holding out hope that Turcotte will become that player is based on pure hope. Vilardi will be a solid second line player in his career I think from what I've seen. If Eichel is healthy. The Kings best player for the next 6-7 years is going to be him. He's extremely good and I dont think we have anyone that is as good as him.

Byfield might not be as good as him. Agreed. The biggest argument--injury aside--from pulling the trigger is focusing only on the talent while ignoring the culture issue that still hasn't been addressed. Talent of Eichel's caliber is hard to come by though so you probably bet on the talent and hope the culture issue can be fixed regardless. Turcotte brings the type of game with skill that this team doesn't have. But you have to give to get and, again, this is why Blake is going to have to earn that paycheck starting right now. Tough decisions will have to be made.

The 11/8 timebomb was always ticking and it finally exploded. I really think it is out of Blake's hands and is an AEG call at this point. They know that there are no good alternatives. The decisions made in the next 2-3 months will affect the franchise for the next 5-10 years. The entire business operation of the Kings hangs in the balance. The AEG bigwigs will make the call. Blake will either execute the direction or be gone.

I do think you continue to be dramatic about the 11/8 timebomb. The timeline has always been playoffs by 2022. The team--as currently constructed--is not a playoff team next season. Blake already knows that so Doughty saying it isn't terribly surprising either: I'm sure Blake told him when they traded Muzzin what the timeline was. Doughty putting it out in the universe is selfish, sure, but he's also reminding Blake that he was told this was the plan. I just can't imagine Blake not being super tight with Doughty. Blake pissing off the Kings franchise defenseman would just be so wild that I can't even imagine living in that timeline.

I do agree about this off-season having a real big impact on the Kings future.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The 11/8 timebomb was always ticking and it finally exploded. I really think it is out of Blake's hands and is an AEG call at this point. They know that there are no good alternatives. The decisions made in the next 2-3 months will affect the franchise for the next 5-10 years. The entire business operation of the Kings hangs in the balance. The AEG bigwigs will make the call. Blake will either execute the direction or be gone.

This is extremely dramatic. Let me make it simple:

Doughty and Kopitar are staying for the duration of their contracts.

It's an easy sell for Blake because we don't even reach the cap floor without those contracts. If they were somehow FORCED to move Kopitar and Doughty, they'd lose the money those names bring in over Stastny, Stepan whatever other crap they'd have to sign to simply be compliant, thus turning it into a convoluted puzzle. I'magine filling the Team LA store with Stepan jerseys because you were too cheap to keep Kopitar.

There, now we can get back to figuring out what pieces to add. Problem solved.

 

[tomd]

This is extremely dramatic. Let me make it simple:

Doughty and Kopitar are staying for the duration of their contracts. It's an easy sell for Blake because we don't even reach the cap floor without those contracts.

There, now we can get back to figuring out what pieces to add. Problem solved.

I think it is dramatic in the sense that people can no longer say that 11 and 8 will be happy to stick around and be "mentors". Nor can they say that 11 and 8 are happy with the direction of the team and "staying the course" is a viable option. I suppose the next discussion will be whether or not Doughty will demand a trade next year if "significant" changes aren't made. Having him stay for another 5 years and be a distraction (or worse) is not good for the franchise either.

 

[tomd]

I do think you continue to be dramatic about the 11/8 timebomb. The timeline has always been playoffs by 2022. The team--as currently constructed--is not a playoff team next season. Blake already knows that so Doughty saying it isn't terribly surprising either: I'm sure Blake told him when they traded Muzzin what the timeline was. Doughty putting it out in the universe is selfish, sure, but he's also reminding Blake that he was told this was the plan. I just can't imagine Blake not being super tight with Doughty. Blake pissing off the Kings franchise defenseman would just be so wild that I can't even imagine living in that timeline.

I do agree about this off-season having a real big impact on the Kings future.

I wonder how close Blake and Doughty actually are. Perhaps it was just an emotional response by Doughty but if Blake has kept him in the loop a better response would have been that "I trust Blake to make the right decisions for the core as well as the organization". By simply saying "no" I think that's a strong sign that he really has no idea what the future direction of the team is. Crazy to believe that might be true but his answer strongly suggested it.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I wonder how close Blake and Doughty actually are. Perhaps it was just an emotional response by Doughty but if Blake has kept him in the loop a better response would have been that "I trust Blake to make the right decisions for the core as well as the organization". By simply saying "no" I think that's a strong sign that he really has no idea what the future direction of the team is. Crazy to believe that might be true but his answer strongly suggested it.

But again, you're putting the cart before the horse. You've imagined every possible doomsday scenario related to this franchise without even giving Blake a chance to do anything this summer, the summer in which we all agree his moves begin to really matter most. Every one of your posts hinges on a big "if."

Doughty didn't say anything that was controversial (or out of the norm for him) to anyone following this franchise unless they want to use his words to further his agenda.

 

[BigKing]

I wonder how close Blake and Doughty actually are. Perhaps it was just an emotional response by Doughty but if Blake has kept him in the loop a better response would have been that "I trust Blake to make the right decisions for the core as well as the organization". By simply saying "no" I think that's a strong sign that he really has no idea what the future direction of the team is. Crazy to believe that might be true but his answer strongly suggested it.

Kopitar is the guy that would say the first thing (he kind of did in his exit interview) and Doughty is going to tell you how he really feels. It's not surprising.

Answering "no" that question doesn't mean that he has no idea about Blake's plan nor does it mean he does: you can argue it both ways. The only thing we know is that Doughty wants some legit players added to this roster v. waiting for every prospect to become legit players and he'll be upset if Blake treats this offseason like the last two where he pretty much didn't care about making the team better.

I'll be upset as well if the only additions are of the Hutton/Maata variety. I'm not going to be pissed if they aren't Eichel level moves but I expect an improved roster--at least on paper--next season and not just because of prospect graduations.

 

[King'sPawn]

Let's assume, for a moment, that the Kings get Jack Eichel. Let's ignore the cost for a moment.

What are your measurable metrics for determining it was a good trade for the Kings?

- If Eichel plays 70+ games and scores over a point per game for the rest of his contract?
- if the Kings win the cup once while he's on the team
- if the Kings make it to the third round or later at least three times during his contract
- other

Because before you decide on the price you're willing to pay, you have to determine what targets are achievable because of Eichel and what you're willing to give up to get him.

Myself, there isn't a metric that would make it a good trade for the Kings, considering the offered price tags, that would be realistic or attainable.

- his health is a question mark. He's played 70+ games twice since joining the league, and he's hit the point-per-game rate twice. This is before we count how the Kings seemingly have decreased production in LA.
- winning the cup requires a LOT to go right, and one major player won't make the difference
- becoming a regular deep playoff performer requires prospects to mature anyway, so why rush?

So assuming the Kings trade for Eichel and it's the end of the 2025-26 season. How will you look at the trade and determine if it was a good one Blake made?

 

[tomd]

But again, you're putting the cart before the horse. You've imagined every possible doomsday scenario related to this franchise without even giving Blake a chance to do anything this summer, the summer in which we all agree his moves begin to really matter most. Every one of your posts hinges on a big "if."

Doughty didn't say anything that was controversial (or out of the norm for him) to anyone following this franchise unless they want to use his words to further his agenda.

Kopitar is the guy that would say the first thing (he kind of did in his exit interview) and Doughty is going to tell you how he really feels. It's not surprising.

Answering "no" that question doesn't mean that he has no idea about Blake's plan nor does it mean he does: you can argue it both ways. The only thing we know is that Doughty wants some legit players added to this roster v. waiting for every prospect to become legit players and he'll be upset if Blake treats this offseason like the last two where he pretty much didn't care about making the team better.

I'll be upset as well if the only additions are of the Hutton/Maata variety. I'm not going to be pissed if they aren't Eichel level moves but I expect an improved roster--at least on paper--next season and not just because of prospect graduations.

I actually don't disagree with either of you but I guess I'm still not convinced that Blake's plan is to do anything beyond the minimum this summer. I think he is very much committed to a long rebuild and hoping that 11 and 8 will be good organization men who'll fall into line with that approach. Doughty publicly shattered that idea though. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if Blake was as emotionally attached to picks and prospects as some of the posters here. Going to be very interesting to hear Blake's thoughts at the STH meeting.

 

[SFKingshomer]

The sky is not falling for the Kings here. They are in the drivers seat with a loaded prospect pool and cap space to pounce. It’s up to Blake and company now as long as AEG is on board.

 

[Reclamation Project]

I like young established players. Most of these prospects and picks we have won’t amount to anywhere near what they are “projected”’to be. At this point I’d be happy if Turcotte could even stay healthy for a full NHL season.

 

[Mats26]

Can't wait to sign Ryan Murray and Saad and say the goal is to make the playoffs.

 

[Rusty Batch]

I think this is one of the biggest mistakes people make in general. Eichel is already a great player in the current NHL. Holding out hope that Turcotte will become that player is based on pure hope. Vilardi will be a solid second line player in his career I think from what I've seen. If Eichel is healthy. The Kings best player for the next 6-7 years is going to be him. He's extremely good and I dont think we have anyone that is as good as him.

If we bring Eichel here and hold onto Byfield I think Byfield runs neck and neck with Eichel for years. It would be Eichel the first couple years and then it would be Byfield at the same level just with less offense but more defense. I'm real high on Byfield though lol.

But yes I agree with the sentiment. If Eichel comes here he's a franchise cornerstone that has a big impact for a decade if we are able to hold on to him.

Which is why I struggle so hard to understand the people that think we are "mortgaging our future" by making aggressive moves to aquire young superstars. Lol that is the dream scenario, praying for tremendous luck in the lottery and drafting the perfect guy is the Ultimate luck play.

 

[KINGS17]

Let's assume, for a moment, that the Kings get Jack Eichel. Let's ignore the cost for a moment.

What are your measurable metrics for determining it was a good trade for the Kings?

- If Eichel plays 70+ games and scores over a point per game for the rest of his contract?
- if the Kings win the cup once while he's on the team
- if the Kings make it to the third round or later at least three times during his contract
- other

Because before you decide on the price you're willing to pay, you have to determine what targets are achievable because of Eichel and what you're willing to give up to get him.

Myself, there isn't a metric that would make it a good trade for the Kings, considering the offered price tags, that would be realistic or attainable.

- his health is a question mark. He's played 70+ games twice since joining the league, and he's hit the point-per-game rate twice. This is before we count how the Kings seemingly have decreased production in LA.
- winning the cup requires a LOT to go right, and one major player won't make the difference
- becoming a regular deep playoff performer requires prospects to mature anyway, so why rush?

So assuming the Kings trade for Eichel and it's the end of the 2025-26 season. How will you look at the trade and determine if it was a good one Blake made?

If you aren't sure of the correct answer, always pick (C).

 

[Telos]

In the end, the season was trash, but this offseason is going to define this "rebuild". I am currently not for making any drastic changes. I do not think this team is an Eichel away from the cup. I love and respect Drew, but he is a little delusional here in that Carter wasn't the signal of their downfall, they were playing like trash like 20 games before Carter was traded. You have to still do right by the kids and bring them up correctly if you hope to have any chance. Sure, you may end up having to deal away Kopitar and/or Doughty later on if things don't happen quickly for value amounts but you have to ice someone that can play and draw attention as well as they really are the best mentors to have out there for these kids which is worth something.

At the moment, I am against firing TMac, I am in the middle on trading for Eichel, but I lean toward not trading for him, and I don't feel we need to make any major acquisitions that don't make complete sense with the rebuild. Trading for a strong, young, top 4 D, and acquiring a complimentary middle 6 forward or two could help, but selling the farm for a kid like Eichel seems up there. It could work, but it is a risk that doesn't need to be taken now and will likely not change the standings next year.

Of course, all of this can change in a year's time if the team or any of these aspects takes a huge step back, but there were a lot of positives to take from our prospects and the future is still bright with what we have.

It's a tough call, I am not envious of Blake's position of having to make the decision, but this is the defining moment of the job and your hiring.