2020-2021 St. Louis Blues: Well, ****.

[Blueline2757]

I disagree. I feel like going out the way he did will somewhat tarnish his legacy as a Blue. Plus, Army gave him limited NMC On the back end of the contract which is the most important, it’s not like he would have been dealt in the first half of his contract but I guess anything is possible. I Just feel like he gave up so much to go play for another team for all the wrong reasons but that’s just me

I sort of agree. Going out the way he did does damage his Blues legacy. I think his agent screwed him.

 

[Prosaic]

Didn't say he's not #1 D, but he's not elite. He's much closer to Parayko level than Petro level.

What exactly is this based on?

Parayko is the best defender of them all, but doesn’t even belong in the conversation for offensive contribution. But Parayko really didn’t have a great 2019-20. McAvoy compares a lot closer to Petro than Parayko.

 

[bleedblue1223]

In the general sense, is McAvoy a top 10 defender, no, he is not. Don't make it more complicated than it is.

 

[DangerDarrin]

I sort of agree. Going out the way he did does damage his Blues legacy. I think his agent screwed him.

Yeah, I knew nothing of Newport until a few days ago and now am just learning of their ways. I’ve said it to others and I know in the end it is still Petro’s decision...but I believe the agents steer these athletes in the wrong direction a lot of the time and convince them that these things are in their best interest regardless of what they truly want. Some of them are no better than criminal lawyers or shady car salesmen

 

[Blueline2757]

Yeah, I knew nothing of Newport until a few days ago and now am just learning of their ways. I’ve said it to others and I know in the end it is still Petro’s decision...but I believe the agents steer these athletes in the wrong direction a lot of the time and convince them that these things are in their best interest regardless of what they truly want. Some of them are no better than criminal lawyers or shady car salesmen

Yup, I think in his heart he wanted to stay, I think he got bad advice. But it's his decision after all. He has every right to it. It is what it is, Pietrangelo is gone It's water under the bridge now.

 

[DatDude44]

Still not elite like he was saying. Our d core isn't that different from Boston's d core that year. The difference is their offense has an advantage over ours. We need Binnington to be back to that level and our offense to step up.

Chars wasn’t their #1.
Mcavoy and krug were.

they’re D could actuslly defend. Krug is great but not great in the D-Zone, Faulk is laughably bad in coverage, Dunn is very prone to mental blunders, scandella is generally solid, Parayko is Parayko....but like, god dam

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

OK, I'll answer and then ask in a separate post.


Honestly, I do the following:

1. Agreed, work like hell to try and get something done before the season starts.
2. Point-blank say: if you really want to go to the highest bidder and aren't willing to negotiate, you apparently don't want to be here. So, I'm going to put you on the market and trade you when I find an offer I like and start quietly working the phones. [Emphasis on quiet - anyone breaks word, they're out of the discussions.] He either concedes that or it hits him between the eyes and gets him to think whether he really wants to leave for mo' money.
3. I probably make the following calls:
-- Arizona on OEL (even if he's a LHD)
-- Carolina on Hamilton
-- Washington on Carlson
-- Hell, I might even call Los Angeles on Doughty

Not that I particularly think a deal might get done, but to gauge value. If you can swing a deal, fantastic.

4. Reach out occasionally during the season, continue to express interest, see if there's movement on their side, keep letting it be known that you'll trade him before letting him walk.
5. If there's still no deal closing in on the FA deadline, strike the best deal you can and move him.

And yes, I know he's got a NTC. That can be worked around. Not easily, but I do it and let him know "you're not sticking me with an empty bag." Yeah, it probably hurts the team for the playoffs. [Which, this year it probably didn't matter.] You have something to show for him and can use pieces to retool short-term and/or long-term, and let him go haggle with his new team and get the deal he wants and be a pain in their ass.

I can’t imagine your potential trade scenario in a season where the team is at the top of the conference and defending the Cup. I call shenanigans. There’s no way that would be a realistic path given the circumstances.

Moreover, Armstrong might think, “If we can win another Cup or come close maybe he’ll have a change of heart.”

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

OK, counter-hypothetical: you're Pietrangelo, you just won the Cup, you really want to stay here. Your wife is from here, you've got 3 kids born here, her family is here, your family likes it here and has indicated maybe even it wants to move down here too. You go to Armstrong and say I really like it here, I think we can win the Cup at least once more, I want to talk new contract and Armstrong says, nah, this isn't the time, I don't know what's coming in the future - the CBA might expire, I don't know what 20-21 might look like ... when I'm ready I'll get back to you.

Then, you see Armstrong trade for a defenseman and immediately ink him to 7 years, and you see one of your teammates get signed to 8 years. So, you go back and say hey, I thought you didn't want to do contracts because you weren't certain about what the future would be, but you did those two - can we talk about a new contract? and Armstrong rebuffs you again with some ambiguous statement. And you try off and on during the season to talk deal, and Armstrong either brushes it aside or ignores you every time.

Then the league shuts down, and you go to Armstrong and mention that you know this probably isn't the time to sign a contract because you both don't know what's going on but you again make it clear you want to get a deal done and finish your career here, and Armstrong says yeah, until I have clarity on what's going on I'm not signing any new contracts - except he goes out in April and signs Scandella to 4 years, and when you ask about it he tells you to go piss off because this is different, I don't have to explain to you how.

You finally put it aside because you're aggravated everyone else is getting taken care of and you keep getting ignored. Spring becomes summer, play starts up, you go to Edmonton and the team gets swept out quick, you come back home, and after you've had a breather you reach back out to Armstrong and he won't go into specifics about assuring you won't be traded or how much money he's willing to offer - he just says tell me you'll take what I want for a term and value, and I'll take care of the rest and at no point will he tell you what those two items are. He finally mentions 5/35 with a remark that frankly, you shouldn't get more than 6.5 because you haven't won a goddamn thing here and others did all the work winning the Cup, but you're the captain here so I'm going to cut you some slack and give you a special deal. The more you talk, the more Armstrong digs in, adamant you're taking a deal on his terms and he doesn't give a f*** what you want and if you don't like it, you can leave because he knows his job is secure and he's not going anywhere so he can give you whatever contract he wants and no one is going to tell him otherwise - not even Tom Stillman.

What are you supposed to do?

Pretty extreme scenario. There’s no real question in your hypothetical, more just an expression of rage. Obviously any player in that situation would leave and probably be glad to get away from such a toxic GM.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Chars wasn’t their #1.
Mcavoy and krug were.

they’re D could actuslly defend. Krug is great but not great in the D-Zone, Faulk is laughably bad in coverage, Dunn is very prone to mental blunders, scandella is generally solid, Parayko is Parayko....but like, god dam

I never said Chara was their #1. McAvoy and Krug aren't elite like Petro.

Boston was able to get close with a defense like they had was because Rask was dominant and their top line was dominant. We would need Binnington to step up and our offense to hit another level that I don't believe they have the talent to hit, especially with Tarasenko in the shape that he's in.

 

[Celtic Note]

I never said Chara was their #1. McAvoy and Krug aren't elite like Petro.

In a vacuum I would take McAvoy over Parayko and I really like Parayko a lot.

 

[bleedblue1223]

In a vacuum I would take McAvoy over Parayko and I really like Parayko a lot.

Age and McAvoy has more offensive upside. Neither are top 10 in their position though, and I don't see either getting to that point either. McAvoy probably has a better chance to get there.

 

[mike1320]

I disagree. I feel like going out the way he did will somewhat tarnish his legacy as a Blue. Plus, Army gave him limited NMC On the back end of the contract which is the most important, it’s not like he would have been dealt in the first half of his contract but I guess anything is possible. I Just feel like he gave up so much to go play for another team for all the wrong reasons but that’s just me

It's pretty funny how people keep glossing over the fact that DA offered him NMC protection during the riskiest part of his contract.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Pretty extreme scenario. There’s no real question in your hypothetical, more just an expression of rage. Obviously any player in that situation would leave and probably be glad to get away from such a toxic GM.

OK, I admit, even though it's hypothetical it's pretty extreme at the end [hence, the emphasis on hypothetical] ... but is it really that far off in a few places?

I've asked several times, and I think a few others have asked as well: based on what's been reported, why couldn't Armstrong talk contract with Pietrangelo coming off the Cup win because of alleged uncertainty? Why couldn't he do that, but he could immediately do a contract with Faulk sight unseen and do 8 years for Schenn with no more certainty about what the future looked like? Why could he later do 4 years with Scandella when no one had any f***ing clue what was going on or what to expect? Even if you want to say that Pietrangelo's initial ask was really high, do you really think going in with 5x7 as a counter was going to bring him down?

I keep saying those 3 signings were not accidental. I hesitate to term it intentional, because it implies that Armstrong knew way back he didn't have an intention of signing Pietrangelo or wasn't going to do it unless he could walk him down to a bargain-basement kind of deal, but it's really hard to take JR's comment about Armstrong pushing off negotiations way early and then signing others and say that it was some purely chance thing. It wasn't an accident, we just don't know (yet) why it wasn't.

Well, he had cap space expiring. Yeah, he had that back on July 1, 2019 too. Then he clogged it with $13 million of contracts, and shockingly he didn't have as much cap space afterwards. I'm sure it wasn't the case that he didn't realize what he was doing until one day someone handed him a report and highlighted it with a bright yellow Sharpie and circled it with a red pen 47 times and drew huge arrows pointing to the fact that he had only a few million dollars of cap space left. He knew. He knew Pietrangelo was coming up on UFA, and for whatever reason decided it wasn't really that important to get him under contract, it was more important to get others under contract first - and if he got that one done, great. Otherwise, whatever.

It would be great if we could rewind this all and do it 1000 times and see what happens in various scenarios. Obviously, we can't. Maybe Pietrangelo really did ask for a shitload of money and all kinds of stuff and wouldn't back off that request. Maybe he just said "hey, let's sit down and talk" to get the ball rolling with no real set-in-stone figures, and after being rebuffed and watching others get signed, he got aggravated and firmed up his demands and raised his asking price in response and kept raising them every time he got pushed off or got what he perceived as a lowball offer. I don't know. None of us do. I just struggle to buy the idea that given everything we've been told about Armstrong's negotiating strategy and how he's pretty firm after his initial offer and doesn't budge much off it and lets players know they can take it or leave it, THIS ONE TIME he was overly reasonable and gracious from when they started talking contract in some semi-serious way and it was all Pietrangelo's fault for being totally irrational and unrealistic. I'm not saying Pietrangelo was totally fair and didn't do anything wrong, but I'm saying the idea that Armstrong would have been cool and distant to doing a deal for reasons only he knows shouldn't seem that far-fetched to anyone.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Why are you so sure Armstrong wasn’t willing to talk contract with Pietro? We are all trying to read between the lines from the various little comments over the last couple years, but I haven’t seen anything to lend much certainty to the scenario where Armstrong was unavailable to Pietro.

 

[DatDude44]

I never said Chara was their #1. McAvoy and Krug aren't elite like Petro.

Boston was able to get close with a defense like they had was because Rask was dominant and their top line was dominant. We would need Binnington to step up and our offense to hit another level that I don't believe they have the talent to hit, especially with Tarasenko in the shape that he's in.

And because there D were solid defensively. Carlo too.

The 2017 penguins without letang was essentially more proving to your earlier argument. Saying Boston’s D wasn’t a big reason for their cup final appearance when they had names like Mcavoy, Krug, Carlo, chara, gryzelcyk i don’t agree with. Yes they had good goaltending and a great forward core as well. But u can’t do it without all 3

 

[bleedblue1223]

And because there D were solid defensively. Carlo too.

The 2017 penguins without letang was essentially more proving to your earlier argument. Saying Boston’s D wasn’t a big reason for their cup final appearance when they had names like Mcavoy, Krug, Carlo, chara, gryzelcyk i don’t agree with. Yes they had good goaltending and a great forward core as well. But u can’t do it without all 3

And people are being overly negative about our group. If Faulk bounces back to Carolina days, our group isn't that different from Boston's group. For some that might be a big leap of faith, and for others it's a smaller leap.

 

[simon IC]

And people are being overly negative about our group. If Faulk bounces back to Carolina days, our group isn't that different from Boston's group. For some that might be a big leap of faith, and for others it's a smaller leap.

Sorry, but I just don't see Faulk returning to his Carolina form. For him to do that, he has to be "the guy" like he was on the 'Canes. People seem to forget that Faulk was a big fish in a small pond in Carolina. That is why is a two-time All-Star. He was basically asked to carry that team, and now he is going to reproduce those numbers in a supporting role on a more defensive system? He won't even be the #1 offensive Dman. He has to play 2nd banana to Krug now. Sorry, I have seen a few of these "Faulk is going to surprise everyone" posts, and I just don't buy it.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Sorry, but I just don't see Faulk returning to his Carolina form. For him to do that, he has to be "the guy" like he was on the 'Canes. People seem to forget that Faulk was a big fish in a small pond in Carolina. That is why is a two-time All-Star. He was basically asked to carry that team, and now he is going to reproduce those numbers in a supporting role on a more defensive system? He won't even be the #1 offensive Dman. He has to play 2nd banana to Krug now. Sorry, I have seen a few of these "Faulk is going to surprise everyone" posts, and I just don't buy it.

Slavin became the guy partway through his rookie season. Faulk was always in that Krug type role or Parayko before he took over the top defensive assignments. It's been years since he's been the guy.

 

[EastonBlues22]

The fact that Petro went to UFA at all means that him "wanting to stay in st. louis" isn't entirely true. What he's really saying is "I want to stay in St. Louis if I get what I want." It's not like he was offered peanuts. He took a deal close to what he got in Vegas. If the NMC was that big a deal and stopped him from signing, so be it. I've seen enough long term contracts to know that, star player or not, they end up bad in the end. I'm not sure where we are at as a team, but there are a couple of other areas that I see as bigger issues than the changes to defense. It took rock solid goaltending and some amazing depth scoring to get the cup. In my opinion those were the two crucial pieces we lacked back when we made the run to the WCF. Sure, it hurts to lose him now, but I really don't want to sit through another 05-08 stretch of seasons.

All of them?

Regardless, those deals are all about what you accomplish before the end of them. Nobody is signing a guy through age 38 because they're trying to put a Cup run together that last year and they're relying on him to be a key piece.

This last Stanley Cup Final featured 8 contracts with NMC clauses between the two teams, and at least 3 of those were full NMCs. Those contracts featured some of the most important players for both teams (Kucherov, Hedman, Benn, Pavelski, Radulov, Seguin), and a couple of complete non-factors (Stamkos, Bishop). Eliminate all those contracts from the books, and there's a pretty good chance you have two different teams in the Cup finals this past year.

You do what you have to do to maximize your team's chances when it's in a position to be competitive. Often that comes at a cost for the future (trading youngsters/prospects/picks for veterans who fill a roster hole or upgrade the team's talent level now, sacrificing future cap space flexibility to retain a key player, etc.). You don't need to go absolutely crazy, and you're not going to hit on every risk you take, but you can't completely avoid those things either if you don't want to be at a competitive disadvantage.

 

[bleedblue1223]

All of them?

Regardless, those deals are all about what you accomplish before the end of them. Nobody is signing a guy through age 38 because they're trying to put a Cup run together that last year and they're relying on him to be a key piece.

This last Stanley Cup Final featured 8 contracts with NMC clauses between the two teams, and at least 3 of those were full NMCs. Those contracts featured some of the most important players for both teams (Kucherov, Hedman, Benn, Pavelski, Radulov, Seguin), and a couple of complete non-factors (Stamkos, Bishop). Eliminate all those contracts from the books, and there's a pretty good chance you have two different teams in the Cup finals this past year.

You do what you have to do to maximize your team's chances when it's in a position to be competitive. Often that comes at a cost for the future (trading youngsters/prospects/picks for veterans who fill a roster hole or upgrade the team's talent level now, sacrificing future cap space flexibility to retain a key player, etc.). You don't need to go absolutely crazy, and you're not going to hit on every risk you take, but you can't completely avoid those things either if you don't want to be at a competitive disadvantage.

Compare it to Blues/Bruins, and Blues had none and Bruins had 2 modified clauses, similar to what Army offered Petro.

 

[bleedblue1223]

And don't get me wrong, I'm not banking on Faulk bouncing back, but it's just a reality that we have to see it through for him in a top 4 role on his right side with a consistent partner.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Hypothetical question:

You are Doug Armstrong and it’s offseason last year. Pietro’s representation makes it clear to you that he will go to the highest bidder on his next deal, with no consideration for his home town status in St Louis. They are adamant about it, and confirm this stance with their reception to your initial offers.

The problem with this hypothetical is that it doesn't really match up with what we know of the early negotiations.

It was reported that Pietrangelo's camp approached Armstrong first about completing an extension, not to tell him they were going to explore the market and see what the highest bid was, and it was Armstrong who put the talks off. This has been supported by a number of subsequent tidbits thrown around by a lot of different sources.

What's more, if you're dead set on going to the highest bidder, why would you try to complete something with the Blues at all prior to the UFA period? How can you know if you're going to the highest bidder if you never actually talk to the other bidders? No matter what the Blues offer, there's always the chance that someone else would top it. Wouldn't you just ask for the Blues offer and tell them you'll get back to them after the UFA period starts?

Trying to complete something before the FA period only makes sense if Pietrangelo had a checklist of things he wanted for whatever reason, and if the Blues could give him those things, then he would sign. That's not a "I'm going to the highest bidder no matter what" scenario. It's just a "this is what I want" scenario...a scenario which meshes with the other facts that we know about just fine, and paints Pietrangelo in a whole lot less mercenary and antagonistic light.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Compare it to Blues/Bruins, and Blues had none and Bruins had 2 modified clauses, similar to what Army offered Petro.

The Blues were in the pretty unique position that they didn't have a single significant (i.e. someone actually good enough to command a NMC) contributor signed as a UFA on that team. All their key players were either home-grown and on deals signed as RFAs or acquired via trade without those clauses in place.

The stars can align that way every now and then, but it's pretty tough to sustain it if you're losing elite players (like we just lost Pietrangelo) when they finally hit UFA, and can't bring in any elite UFAs from outside the organization, and are depleting your futures reserves through all the trades you are making to compensate for the lack of UFA success. Only something like 4 teams in the league don't have a NMC contract on the books, so obviously most teams consider this a necessary evil.

We have no idea what Armstrong offered Pietrangelo, but it didn't sound like he offered a NMC for 5 years up front and then a M-NTC at the back, which is what Marchand has. It sounded like he offered a partial NMC that covered some part of end of Pietrangelo's deal, and who knows what else. Bergeron has a NMC for his entire deal, so that's not really a comparable to what Armstrong offered.

 

[simon IC]

Slavin became the guy partway through his rookie season. Faulk was always in that Krug type role or Parayko before he took over the top defensive assignments. It's been years since he's been the guy.

Hmmm, I might challenge you on that. From 2016-17 through 18-19 their TOI and ATOI were just about identical, and Faulk outscored Slavin in every season except 18-19. Slavin is one of the best two-way defensemen in the NHL, and I imagine his usage saw a lot more ES ice time. We need a Hurricanes fan on here to help us! Anyway, minor quibble. I appreciate your position.

 

[bleedblue1223]

The Blues were in the pretty unique position that they didn't have a single significant (i.e. someone actually good enough to command a NMC) contributor signed as a UFA on that team. All their key players were either home-grown and on deals signed as RFAs or acquired via trade without those clauses in place.

The stars can align that way every now and then, but it's pretty tough to sustain it if you're losing elite players (like we just lost Pietrangelo) when they finally hit UFA, and can't bring in any elite UFAs from outside the organization, and are depleting your futures reserves through all the trades you are making to compensate for the lack of UFA success. Only something like 4 teams in the league don't have a NMC contract on the books, so obviously most teams consider this a necessary evil.

We have no idea what Armstrong offered Pietrangelo, but it didn't sound like he offered a NMC for 5 years up front and then a M-NTC at the back, which is what Marchand has. It sounded like he offered a partial NMC that covered some part of end of Pietrangelo's deal, and who knows what else. Bergeron has a NMC for his entire deal, so that's not really a comparable to what Armstrong offered.

Yeah, I'm not saying he offered what Bergeron or Marchand have. Bergeron has a 3 team trade list in his final 2 years.

I'd say Marchand also took a financial discount, but he signed his new deal in September 2016, which was right after his first 30+ goal season, and directly before his ppg+ breakout, so if he waited he would've earned more.

And how different would Army's stance have been if Petro was a few years younger like Bergeron and Marchand when they signed their current deals? Petro will essentially be 31 when the next season starts, much less meat on the bone in his case.