2020-2021 St. Louis Blues: Well, ****.

[Itsnotatrap]

Friedman mentions the word “tampering” around the 3 min mark here.


‎31 Thoughts: The Podcast on Apple Podcasts

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Q: do you have a link to this? Or is this part of the hypothetical, where you're saying well, hypothetically, let's say ...

Because if it's the latter, I have a hypothetical I'd like to pose in return as a devil's argument point.

I’m posing a hypothetical situation and asking how you would approach it as GM. I’m not sure whether it’s accurate to how things went down, but it makes both party’s actions make sense to me, rather than concluding that one or both parties acted illogically.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

We need another scoring threat PERIOD! Whether it is through a trade or Hoffman or Dadanov something more needs to happen. Perron and Schenn where tops on the team with 25 and Jaden at 22. Either one of the two have great potential to score 30+.

Pro-rate that to 82 games, and you've got 29, 29 and 25. And Schwartz has been mostly consistent in notching 20 goals or more a season when he's played a full season. He's not a sniper, he's a playmaker who's got the ability to score goals. At this point, if either Schenn or Schwartz were capable of being consistently putting up 30+ they would have done so.

Not saying scoring isn't an concern for the upcoming season, but the Blues were just above the midline in the league in scoring without Tarasenko and still put up the league's 2nd best record at the time play halted. The key is keeping that GA down near where it was, and I don't know if this group of skaters will do that again. People talk about the offense Krug brings and how Parayko will replace Pietrangelo, but I think people sorely underestimate (1) if Parayko covers for Pietrangelo's defense that there's no one who's then replacing Parayko's defense, and (2) the impact Pietrangelo's presence on the blueline had on all the other defensive pairings and who opposing teams matched up against.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I’m posing a hypothetical situation and asking how you would approach it as GM. I’m not sure whether it’s accurate to how things went down, but it makes both party’s actions make sense to me, rather than concluding that one or both parties acted illogically.

OK, I'll answer and then ask in a separate post.

Hypothetical question:

You are Doug Armstrong and it’s offseason last year. Pietro’s representation makes it clear to you that he will go to the highest bidder on his next deal, with no consideration for his home town status in St Louis. They are adamant about it, and confirm this stance with their reception to your initial offers.

What would you do between then and now?

I’ll answer for me:
- I would acknowledge that the Blues are not going to beat the market. I’m sure there would be hopes of changing his mind, but if I’m convinced that he’s sincere in this approach, at some point I’d realize I couldn’t offer a contract that outbid everyone else. The 8th year gives me a chance to try and outbid some teams, but if I think even that advantage leaves me behind the top of the market, I need to think about how to keep my team competitive.

- I’d see what other RHD options I can acquire between then and now. A move like the Faulk trade is realistic to me. Maybe my wish list might be for a better player, but what RHD was available during that time frame?

- What I would NOT do is go into free agency with a Pietro sized hole on the right side and no realistic options for filling it. And you can cross Schmidt right off, since there was no way to acquire him. The list of other options is not long and not very impressive. Faulk is about as good as he could have done.

Faulk didn’t really fit a role very well this past year. The move made little sense in the one season. But as a longer term move it looks a lot more logical to me now. I also can make sense of Pietro’s bench reaction in the playoffs when they were knocked out.

Honestly, I do the following:

1. Agreed, work like hell to try and get something done before the season starts.
2. Point-blank say: if you really want to go to the highest bidder and aren't willing to negotiate, you apparently don't want to be here. So, I'm going to put you on the market and trade you when I find an offer I like and start quietly working the phones. [Emphasis on quiet - anyone breaks word, they're out of the discussions.] He either concedes that or it hits him between the eyes and gets him to think whether he really wants to leave for mo' money.
3. I probably make the following calls:
-- Arizona on OEL (even if he's a LHD)
-- Carolina on Hamilton
-- Washington on Carlson
-- Hell, I might even call Los Angeles on Doughty

Not that I particularly think a deal might get done, but to gauge value. If you can swing a deal, fantastic.

4. Reach out occasionally during the season, continue to express interest, see if there's movement on their side, keep letting it be known that you'll trade him before letting him walk.
5. If there's still no deal closing in on the FA deadline, strike the best deal you can and move him.

And yes, I know he's got a NTC. That can be worked around. Not easily, but I do it and let him know "you're not sticking me with an empty bag." Yeah, it probably hurts the team for the playoffs. [Which, this year it probably didn't matter.] You have something to show for him and can use pieces to retool short-term and/or long-term, and let him go haggle with his new team and get the deal he wants and be a pain in their ass.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

OK, counter-hypothetical: you're Pietrangelo, you just won the Cup, you really want to stay here. Your wife is from here, you've got 3 kids born here, her family is here, your family likes it here and has indicated maybe even it wants to move down here too. You go to Armstrong and say I really like it here, I think we can win the Cup at least once more, I want to talk new contract and Armstrong says, nah, this isn't the time, I don't know what's coming in the future - the CBA might expire, I don't know what 20-21 might look like ... when I'm ready I'll get back to you.

Then, you see Armstrong trade for a defenseman and immediately ink him to 7 years, and you see one of your teammates get signed to 8 years. So, you go back and say hey, I thought you didn't want to do contracts because you weren't certain about what the future would be, but you did those two - can we talk about a new contract? and Armstrong rebuffs you again with some ambiguous statement. And you try off and on during the season to talk deal, and Armstrong either brushes it aside or ignores you every time.

Then the league shuts down, and you go to Armstrong and mention that you know this probably isn't the time to sign a contract because you both don't know what's going on but you again make it clear you want to get a deal done and finish your career here, and Armstrong says yeah, until I have clarity on what's going on I'm not signing any new contracts - except he goes out in April and signs Scandella to 4 years, and when you ask about it he tells you to go piss off because this is different, I don't have to explain to you how.

You finally put it aside because you're aggravated everyone else is getting taken care of and you keep getting ignored. Spring becomes summer, play starts up, you go to Edmonton and the team gets swept out quick, you come back home, and after you've had a breather you reach back out to Armstrong and he won't go into specifics about assuring you won't be traded or how much money he's willing to offer - he just says tell me you'll take what I want for a term and value, and I'll take care of the rest and at no point will he tell you what those two items are. He finally mentions 5/35 with a remark that frankly, you shouldn't get more than 6.5 because you haven't won a goddamn thing here and others did all the work winning the Cup, but you're the captain here so I'm going to cut you some slack and give you a special deal. The more you talk, the more Armstrong digs in, adamant you're taking a deal on his terms and he doesn't give a f*** what you want and if you don't like it, you can leave because he knows his job is secure and he's not going anywhere so he can give you whatever contract he wants and no one is going to tell him otherwise - not even Tom Stillman.

What are you supposed to do?

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

OK, counter-hypothetical: you're Pietrangelo, you just won the Cup, you really want to stay here. Your wife is from here, you've got 3 kids born here, her family is here, your family likes it here and has indicated maybe even it wants to move down here too. You go to Armstrong and say I really like it here, I think we can win the Cup at least once more, I want to talk new contract and Armstrong says, nah, this isn't the time, I don't know what's coming in the future - the CBA might expire, I don't know what 20-21 might look like ... when I'm ready I'll get back to you.

Then, you see Armstrong trade for a defenseman and immediately ink him to 7 years, and you see one of your teammates get signed to 8 years. So, you go back and say hey, I thought you didn't want to do contracts because you weren't certain about what the future would be, but you did those two - can we talk about a new contract? and Armstrong rebuffs you again with some ambiguous statement. And you try off and on during the season to talk deal, and Armstrong either brushes it aside or ignores you every time.

Then the league shuts down, and you go to Armstrong and mention that you know this probably isn't the time to sign a contract because you both don't know what's going on but you again make it clear you want to get a deal done and finish your career here, and Armstrong says yeah, until I have clarity on what's going on I'm not signing any new contracts - except he goes out in April and signs Scandella to 4 years, and when you ask about it he tells you to go piss off because this is different, I don't have to explain to you how.

You finally put it aside because you're aggravated everyone else is getting taken care of and you keep getting ignored. Spring becomes summer, play starts up, you go to Edmonton and the team gets swept out quick, you come back home, and after you've had a breather you reach back out to Armstrong and he won't go into specifics about assuring you won't be traded or how much money he's willing to offer - he just says tell me you'll take what I want for a term and value, and I'll take care of the rest and at no point will he tell you what those two items are. He finally mentions 5/35 with a remark that frankly, you shouldn't get more than 6.5 because you haven't won a goddamn thing here and others did all the work winning the Cup, but you're the captain here so I'm going to cut you some slack and give you a special deal. The more you talk, the more Armstrong digs in, adamant you're taking a deal on his terms and he doesn't give a f*** what you want and if you don't like it, you can leave because he knows his job is secure and he's not going anywhere so he can give you whatever contract he wants and no one is going to tell him otherwise - not even Tom Stillman.

What are you supposed to do?

This isn't what happened. He had high ask after Cup which is why Army moved on to other business hoping he would come down. Army didn't just blow him off. And I don't know where you got those numbers. It's been widely reported that we offered him 8x8.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

This isn't what happened.

OK, counter-hypothetical:

Just like:

Hypothetical question:

I’m posing a hypothetical situation and asking how you would approach it as GM.

 

[Blueline2757]

This isn't what happened. He had high ask after Cup which is why Army moved on to other business hoping he would come down. Army didn't just blow him off. And I don't know where you got those numbers. It's been widely reported that we offered him 8x8.

Is that true? Was it that high? I've heard rumors after the cup win that his ask was 8x8

 

[DangerDarrin]

It isn't like Alex is starving here...Even with the Blues offer, he was poised to make well over 100 million in career earnings after his career is done. It really bothers me when guys choose money over legacy. In the end, it was Petro's decision to leave. IMO, the Blues made a good offer but it seems to me like he didn't want to stay as much as he thought he did. Perhaps Army could have sweetened it just a little bit more but still a good offer. I don't think we will ever know fully what really transpired but time to move on and focus on the team we have remaining

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Just like:

What you posted is misleading and unhelpful. You create a false scenario and then show why Petro was rightfully insulted and upset by something that never happened. Well, okay, but we know that isn't how it played out so saying he should be upset by something that didn't happen is rather preposterous.

 

[rumrokh]

Is that true? Was it that high? I've heard rumors after the cup win that his ask was 8x8

I don't know if we have first-hand info on that, but I've only heard references to Josi's contract as the starting point back then.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Is that true? Was it that high? I've heard rumors after the cup win that his ask was 8x8

Speculation is he wanted EK or DD money.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I don't know if we have first-hand info on that, but I've only heard references to Josi's contract as the starting point back then.

Speculation is he only came down to Josi number after Josi signed since Josi is better was hard to keep asking for significantly more.

 

[Stealth JD]

Can the Blues start negotiating a contract with Schwartz now, or does next season have to begin first?

 

[Blueline2757]

I don't know if we have first-hand info on that, but I've only heard references to Josi's contract as the starting point back then.

Wasn't Josi's contract was signed in early November or something I know it was early in the season. I guess that would've been after the cup win. I recall they didn't talk once the season began.

 

[Ranksu]

It isn't like Alex is starving here...Even with the Blues offer, he was poised to make well over 100 million in career earnings after his career is done. It really bothers me when guys choose money over legacy. In the end, it was Petro's decision to leave. IMO, the Blues made a good offer but it seems to me like he didn't want to stay as much as he thought he did. Perhaps Army could have sweetened it just a little bit more but still a good offer. I don't think we will ever know fully what really transpired but time to move on and focus on the team we have remaining

He choose legacy. He didnt want to get traded, so he take contract which have him Secure to play one place after he retire.

 

[rumrokh]

Wasn't Josi's contract was signed in early November or something I know it was early in the season. I guess that would've been after the cup win. I recall they didn't talk once the season began.

I'm not sure. But I definitely have not heard 8x8 last summer.

 

[DatDude44]

Faulk and Krug are going to be great. They will be heavily leaned on and will surprise everybody.

Krug maybe. Faulk no lol only people he’s surprising are the opposing teams forwards catching tape to tape pizzas from him in thecslot

 

[DatDude44]

The Bruins came within a game of winning the cup with a 40-something year old defenseman with a broken jaw as their best defenseman. And some say Krug was their best defenseman. He might have been that series.

Mcavoy says hi

 

[Zizzle]

Pro-rate that to 82 games, and you've got 29, 29 and 25. And Schwartz has been mostly consistent in notching 20 goals or more a season when he's played a full season. He's not a sniper, he's a playmaker who's got the ability to score goals. At this point, if either Schenn or Schwartz were capable of being consistently putting up 30+ they would have done so.

Not saying scoring isn't an concern for the upcoming season, but the Blues were just above the midline in the league in scoring without Tarasenko and still put up the league's 2nd best record at the time play halted. The key is keeping that GA down near where it was, and I don't know if this group of skaters will do that again. People talk about the offense Krug brings and how Parayko will replace Pietrangelo, but I think people sorely underestimate (1) if Parayko covers for Pietrangelo's defense that there's no one who's then replacing Parayko's defense, and (2) the impact Pietrangelo's presence on the blueline had on all the other defensive pairings and who opposing teams matched up against.

We really only have 4 real scoring threats Schenn, Perron, Schwartz, and OReilly (just talking about forwards). We need one more piece. Most everyone else are 10-15 goal players in my opinion.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Mcavoy says hi

Still not elite like he was saying. Our d core isn't that different from Boston's d core that year. The difference is their offense has an advantage over ours. We need Binnington to be back to that level and our offense to step up.

 

[DangerDarrin]

He choose legacy. He didnt want to get traded, so he take contract which have him Secure to play one place after he retire.

I disagree. I feel like going out the way he did will somewhat tarnish his legacy as a Blue. Plus, Army gave him limited NMC On the back end of the contract which is the most important, it’s not like he would have been dealt in the first half of his contract but I guess anything is possible. I Just feel like he gave up so much to go play for another team for all the wrong reasons but that’s just me

 

[Prosaic]

Still not elite like he was saying. Our d core isn't that different from Boston's d core that year. The difference is their offense has an advantage over ours. We need Binnington to be back to that level and our offense to step up.

In what universe is McAvoy not an elite #1D? His offensive play driving and scoring rates are fantastic, he is one of the best defenders in the league, and Chara has been a boat anchor for a few seasons.

Here’s a side by side comparison with Petro. Pietrangelo is certainly a step-up offensively but McAvoy is better at preventing chances in his own end.

 

[bleedblue1223]

In what universe is McAvoy not a #1D? His offensive play driving and scoring rates are fantastic, he is one of the best defenders in the league, and Chara has been a boat anchor for a few seasons.

Here’s a side by side comparison with Petro. Pietrangelo is certainly a step-up offensively but McAvoy is better at preventing chances in his own end.

View attachment 372625

Didn't say he's not #1 D, but he's not elite. He's much closer to Parayko level than Petro level. McAvoy led that d core like Parayko will lead ours. Neither has a Petro caliber guy, and Krug isn't the leader of either group.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

We really only have 4 real scoring threats Schenn, Perron, Schwartz, and OReilly (just talking about forwards). We need one more piece. Most everyone else are 10-15 goal players in my opinion.

Just about everyone wants a(nother) legitimate scorer. Last year's team, with only 10 games of Tarasenko, was on pace for 257.5 goals on the season. Our Cup-winning team scored 244.

If we don't play defense, moar scoring won't fix that. It was the oft-mentioned solution for years, when "get a decent goaltender who can make a f***ing timely save" was actually it.