Speculation: 2020-2021: Sharks Roster Discussion Part 5

[Pinkfloyd]

I wouldn’t do it then. I wouldn’t move Meier for Dubois. Dubois is probably worth more (or close to the same) but I’d want Dubois to play with Meier not for Meier.

I understand that desire but Dubois is better to build around and a long term 1C solution. We have a bunch of winger prospects and centers to move to wing that I'm okay with that swap. If there's a way to make it happen without Meier, I would certainly be receptive but I don't see how.

Would you trade Timo for Tavares and a first, especially in a weak draft with no high end talent? I would not.

That’s about the equivalent of what you’d be asking CBJ to do. I find it very unlikely that they wouldn’t find a better deal.

Not saying it’s impossible, but definitely unlikely they’d be interested in Couture coming back.

I don't think that's a fair comparison at all. Trading Timo for tavares would make us much older and more expensive addressing the 1C with much less flexibility. Dubois is cheaper and younger with more years to put into the more pivotal position. As for Couture, I suspect it's a non-starter for Couture since I have doubts Columbus is one of the three he'd agree to go to. I would suspect those three teams would be Buffalo, Detroit, and Toronto.

You have to think about that contract too.
PLD for cooch + is fair in a vacuum, but when you factor in that contract, it negates some value, a fairly decent amount at that. It’s extremely unlikely he’ll be worth 8 mil at age 35+, and then you’re stuck with a very expensive contract with several years still on it.

Also has to factor in Cooch’s 3 team NTC. I’m not sure he’d waive to go to Columbus. I would make that trade, but I don’t think CBJ would.

I’d probably trade 1v1 with Hertl and I can see that working for both teams, especially if DW is planning on a transition year this year, which is what it looks like from the moves he’s made, or lack there of.

Same thing with Tavares. We’d also have to make other deals to even fit his cap hit, and as we’ve seen by Tampa not even being able to give away Johnson for free, moving cap is very expensive right now.

Columbus could make a deal for Couture but it wouldn't involve Dubois. They are playoff desperate and want success which Couture would certainly provide but not in this spot and like you said unlikely one of his three teams.

 

[hohosaregood]

I like the implications of what DW said here. We generally criticize DW for chasing after what the SC Cup champs are doing and ending up with acquisitions that seemingly don't contribute to the style of the team. In a way, they still are chasing after the recent champs but they've been a lot more transparent with where they want this team to be, especially in terms of how we've begun to draft prospects. Possession, pursuit, and skating ability is a really promising philosophy to me.

 

[TheWayToRefJose]

I understand that desire but Dubois is better to build around and a long term 1C solution. We have a bunch of winger prospects and centers to move to wing that I'm okay with that swap. If there's a way to make it happen without Meier, I would certainly be receptive but I don't see how.



I don't think that's a fair comparison at all. Trading Timo for tavares would make us much older and more expensive addressing the 1C with much less flexibility. Dubois is cheaper and younger with more years to put into the more pivotal position. As for Couture, I suspect it's a non-starter for Couture since I have doubts Columbus is one of the three he'd agree to go to. I would suspect those three teams would be Buffalo, Detroit, and Toronto.



Columbus could make a deal for Couture but it wouldn't involve Dubois. They are playoff desperate and want success which Couture would certainly provide but not in this spot and like you said unlikely one of his three teams.

I made that comparison to try to show how it would be for CBJ to trade PLD for Cooch. They have no real incentive there due to cap, age, and skill difference not being enough to make up for that.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

I made that comparison to try to show how it would be for CBJ to trade PLD for Cooch. They have no real incentive there due to cap, age, and skill difference not being enough to make up for that.

Their incentive is to get back the best possible package for a player who wants out. Likely not going to get what they want for him even though it'll still be a lot. No guarantees that the Sharks offer the best and wasn't saying Cooch is the be all end all. Literally just threw out the guy I would want to move for him. Nothing more. You're tilting at windmills.

 

[TheWayToRefJose]

Yeah but in that time Couture will have provided value that they don't really have right now. A player that produces in the clutch and can provide leadership. His age and contract are supplemented by picks and prospects. Like I said, I don't know where the value calculates out but the Sharks have picks and prospects that they can throw at the problem. Getting a legit 22 year old center man is worth the hit. You're getting too hung up on Couture as a definitive solution. I just threw him out there as my ideal trade. I already said I doubt DW even entertains trading him.

As far as Tavares... dude we were just talking value, not realistic possibility with the cap. that trade ain't happening. For Hertl the Sharks still have to add considering the injury history and the age difference. No idea what that is but it won't be 1 for 1 and I'm fine with that as long as it's not Merkley from the prospect pool.

One thing we can agree on. If this truly is a transition year, they should make this type of roster shake up trade sooner than later. Get it over with so the team can assimilate all the changes.

The skill difference isn’t enough to justify that for them. Cooch isn’t that much better.

Yes, picks and prospects have value, but not to CBJ. They want to compete. Trading away roster players for futures does not help them at all in that regard.

I brought that up because guess what, contract length and AAV affects a players trade value. Just as Tavares’ cap hit makes him less attractive to SJ, Couture’s contract makes him less attractive to CBJ, and really any team for that matter considering the length.

 

[TheWayToRefJose]

Their incentive is to get back the best possible package for a player who wants out. Likely not going to get what they want for him even though it'll still be a lot. No guarantees that the Sharks offer the best and wasn't saying Cooch is the be all end all. Literally just threw out the guy I would want to move for him. Nothing more. You're tilting at windmills.

I’m saying it’s extremely unlikely for that trade to happen for the reasons above and you keep trying to say otherwise.

Yes, we have the assets to acquire him, but with the only two realistic pieces to acquire him (Hertl and Timo,) there’s not really any incentive for DW to make that trade.
Trading Hertl is a downgrade now, we don’t really gain a significant amount of cap space, Hertl is happy here, and he just turned 27. It’s not like he’s some old man.

If we trade Timo, they’re pretty similar in skill, age, and cap hit. Yes, we’d have better Cs, but we already have two top 6Cs and are already lacking top 6 wingers.

 

[PacificOceanPotion]

Fast, agile skaters, who can dump the puck, get in deep quickly and gain possession of the puck in the offensive zone? Sign me up.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Just like I thought... Will be interesting to see if he keeps that spot or if they try multiple people there. Regardless, I think with Covid complications throughout the season, Merkley will end up playing a bunch of games.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

The skill difference isn’t enough to justify that for them. Cooch isn’t that much better.

Yes, picks and prospects have value, but not to CBJ. They want to compete. Trading away roster players for futures does not help them at all in that regard.

I brought that up because guess what, contract length and AAV affects a players trade value. Just as Tavares’ cap hit makes him less attractive to SJ, Couture’s contract makes him less attractive to CBJ, and really any team for that matter considering the length.

Good grief... Remember the part where PLD doesn't want to be there? Wasn't it you who told me that? Dude...

I’m saying it’s extremely unlikely for that trade to happen for the reasons above and you keep trying to say otherwise.

Yes, we have the assets to acquire him, but with the only two realistic pieces to acquire him (Hertl and Timo,) there’s not really any incentive for DW to make that trade.
Trading Hertl is a downgrade now, we don’t really gain a significant amount of cap space, Hertl is happy here, and he just turned 27. It’s not like he’s some old man.

If we trade Timo, they’re pretty similar in skill, age, and cap hit. Yes, we’d have better Cs, but we already have two top 6Cs and are already lacking top 6 wingers.

Except you aren't the last word on what is and what isn't realistic or likely or unlikely. Neither of us are. History says it could easily be something you or I haven't thought of. 22 to 27 is 5 years and multiple knee surgeries and also puts him at past his prime according to the statisticians here. Personally I think Hertl will be fine and I would prefer to keep him over the other top forwards but his position and potential production (if healthy) more closely aligns with PLD.

 

[CupfortheSharks]

Just like I thought... Will be interesting to see if he keeps that spot or if they try multiple people there. Regardless, I think with Covid complications throughout the season, Merkley will end up playing a bunch of games.

Rookie paired with the obvious #5 and they are both left shots. Clearly the #6 job is Pasichnuk’s to lose.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Rookie paired with the obvious #5 and they are both left shots. Clearly the #6 job is Pasichnuk’s to lose.

I still think Middleton will end up securing that spot at least to start but if anyone challenges it'll be BP. By accounts he's a high energy guy like Ferraro. He's also 5'11" and 205lbs. Dude is thick.

I would love to now which one is playing the offside.

 

[hohosaregood]

I still think Middleton will end up securing that spot at least to start but if anyone challenges it'll be BP. By accounts he's a high energy guy like Ferraro. He's also 5'11" and 205lbs. Dude is thick.

I would love to now which one is playing the offside.

If they can keep all of Ferraro, Middleton, Pasichnuk, and Merkley with the team, I would guess that they may just end up in rotation. Especially with the compressed schedule.

 

[Mattb124]

Just like I thought... Will be interesting to see if he keeps that spot or if they try multiple people there. Regardless, I think with Covid complications throughout the season, Merkley will end up playing a bunch of games.

As expected, we will see if it sticks.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

If they can keep all of Ferraro, Middleton, Pasichnuk, and Merkley with the team, I would guess that they may just end up in rotation. Especially with the compressed schedule.

I wouldn't lump Ferraro with those other 3. He's a lock and may end up in the top 4 depending on how Simek and Vlasic look.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Listening to the interviews today... Middleton added almost 10 lbs and he's up to 221. Big boy. He's going to play some games. They may adjust the 6th D depending on who they play against.

BB also said they aren't going to be married to Vlasic with EK65 if it isn't working out.

 

[themelkman]

Listening to the interviews today... Middleton added almost 10 lbs and he's up to 221. Big boy. He's going to play some games. They may adjust the 6th D depending on who they play.

BB also said they aren't going to be married to Vlasic with EK65 if it isn't working out.

Love BB, willingness to adapt was PDB biggest issue

 

[Pavelski2112]

Love BB, willingness to adapt was PDB biggest issue

PDB was great at adapting within a playoff series, but terrible from game-to-game in the regular season

 

[DG93]

PDB was great at adapting within a playoff series, but terrible from game-to-game in the regular season

I'd disagree with this...not to get too off-topic, but this is the same guy that waited 4 games to insert Donskoi over a boat anchor vs. Vegas when Vegas' bottom-6 was running circles around the Sharks' 4th line. Same thing goes with the Joakim Ryan over Martin substitution happening after a back-breaking OT goal in game 3 in 2017. Adjustments in the Pittsburgh and 2019 St. Louis series never happened at all (not that I think it'd matter in either case to be honest).

 

[OrrNumber4]

I'd disagree with this...not to get too off-topic, but this is the same guy that waited 4 games to insert Donskoi over a boat anchor vs. Vegas when Vegas' bottom-6 was running circles around the Sharks' 4th line. Same thing goes with the Joakim Ryan over Martin substitution happening after a back-breaking OT goal in game 3 in 2017. Adjustments in the Pittsburgh and 2019 St. Louis series never happened at all (not that I think it'd matter in either case to be honest).

I think DeBoer gets too much criticism for not adjusting enough. He's a lot more informed than we are, and if often showed. Maybe Donskoi should have played earlier, but that made no difference in the series outcome. On top of that, I could understand DeBoer's thinking...Donskoi was definitely better than Haley, but was also struggling mightily and needed a kick in the pants. Martin > Ryan was harshly criticized, yet we can see with hindsight that Ryan wasn't nearly as good as he was hyped up to be. His short sample size of good play in San Jose was a mirage.

 

[Pavelski2112]

I think DeBoer gets too much criticism for not adjusting enough. He's a lot more informed than we are, and if often showed. Maybe Donskoi should have played earlier, but that made no difference in the series outcome. On top of that, I could understand DeBoer's thinking...Donskoi was definitely better than Haley, but was also struggling mightily and needed a kick in the pants. Martin > Ryan was harshly criticized, yet we can see with hindsight that Ryan wasn't nearly as good as he was hyped up to be. His short sample size of good play in San Jose was a mirage.

I'll defend PDB somewhat as a playoff coach, but Haley over Donskoi was an absolute travesty no matter how you look at it. Haley is not and never really was an NHLer, Donskoi at his worst was still a decent player. He had troubles with scoring goals that year, but wasn't an entirely useless player. I mean, he scored his career high in points that year.

 

[DG93]

I think DeBoer gets too much criticism for not adjusting enough. He's a lot more informed than we are, and if often showed. Maybe Donskoi should have played earlier, but that made no difference in the series outcome. On top of that, I could understand DeBoer's thinking...Donskoi was definitely better than Haley, but was also struggling mightily and needed a kick in the pants. Martin > Ryan was harshly criticized, yet we can see with hindsight that Ryan wasn't nearly as good as he was hyped up to be. His short sample size of good play in San Jose was a mirage.

Regarding Donskoi, it might have not made a difference in the end (although I'd argue that those extra games played a role in terms of injuries and fatigue later on), but he continued to play an AHLer over an established NHL middle-6 forward for 4 games. That's unacceptable. Regarding Ryan, even if it was a short-term mirage, he was substantially better than Martin at that time and should have been inserted into the lineup before that back-breaking game 3 OT winner. I agree that PDB gets overcriticized, but one of his biggest flaws as a coach is his stubbornness and refusal to make adjustments when needed.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

PDB was great at adapting within a playoff series, but terrible from game-to-game in the regular season

Very true. Someone here could more easily name the instances where he made in series adjustments that turned the tide but the Vegas series immediately comes to mind. Even throwing out the end of game 7 when Vegas choked, the fact the Sharks got that series to game 7 was a testament to the strategy changes PDB made.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Very true. Someone here could more easily name the instances where he made in series adjustments that turned the tide but the Vegas series immediately comes to mind. Even throwing out the end of game 7 when Vegas choked, the fact the Sharks got that series to game 7 was a testament to the strategy changes PDB made.

He was great in the first 3 rounds in '16, too. Maybe Pittsburgh was too good, or Polak was too bad for me to notice in that series haha.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

I'll defend PDB somewhat as a playoff coach, but Haley over Donskoi was an absolute travesty no matter how you look at it. Haley is not and never really was an NHLer, Donskoi at his worst was still a decent player. He had troubles with scoring goals that year, but wasn't an entirely useless player. I mean, he scored his career high in points that year.

I'm only annoyed that they didn't have someone better than Haley to sub in. Donskoi wasn't playing worthy of top-9 minutes and needed to be better.

 

[Alaskanice]

The Jets signed Trevor Lewis. Maybe this means they’ll move Roslovic. I’m still hoping.