Prospect Info: 2020-2021 Senators Prospect Watch

[Sens of Anarchy]

It's also the type of player they pick as well. They're usually going for smaller 5'9s - we're not talking Rossi's. They're picking guys designed for regular season success or for outscoring the opponent but a good defense can shut down a good offense as they continually seem to have to relearn every year. Need guys who can grind it out.

You need a balance ,, not all one way or another.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Should be a good league for him. His team seems bad and verrrrry young. As far as I can tell, he should be their best player.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

It's also the type of player they pick as well. They're usually going for smaller 5'9s - we're not talking Rossi's. They're picking guys designed for regular season success or for outscoring the opponent but a good defense can shut down a good offense as they continually seem to have to relearn every year. Need guys who can grind it out.

But the Leafs could easily trade for some decent grinders with all the skill they accumulate in the draft. This offseason is a clear example. They could have traded Johnsson or Kapanen for some two way ability, defense or grit. They didn't capitalize on that value. Skill and scoring are the hardest qualities to find in hockey. SO if you have them you should be able to trade some of that rarer skill for more common skills like grit or defensive commitment. It's why scorers get paid the most and why they have the most value in trades. Drafting mostly high skill guys who can score isn't a problem. You just have to acknowledge the fact that you need to cash out some of that skill to round out your team.

The Leafs seem to bury their head in the sand and think you can ice a lineup with 16 skilled forwards, 4 mediocre D and a decent goalie and still win against good teams.

You need a balance ,, not all one way or another.

Exactly. But you CAN add balance in trades or FA.

 

[aragorn]

Good tough players are just as hard to find as skilled players, while there are more of them we have seen often that they aren't very good & sometimes a liability too. Ottawa has needed a player like Tkachuk for more than a decade & could never find one, they had lots of guys who tried but couldn't contribute in one way or another. How many Tom Wilsons are there who can play on the top line? Not many. Look what Montreal was willing to pay for Josh Anderson.

Getting good big tough guys is equally as challenging as getting high skilled players IMO. There are some but they cost a lot & if you can get them through the draft like Kleven who can develop into one that is great for the organization. Same can be said for good big high skilled players like Sokolov & Batherson. I like how this franchise is drafting & building a team for a long consistent playoff runs which is something they have struggled with for yrs.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Good tough players are just as hard to find as skilled players, while there are more of them we have seen often that they aren't very good & sometimes a liability too. Ottawa has needed a player like Tkachuk for more than a decade & could never find one, they had lots of guys who tried but couldn't contribute in one way or another. How many Tom Wilsons are there who can play on the top line? Not many.

Getting good big tough guys is equally as challenging as getting high skilled players IMO. There are some but they cost a lot & if you can get them through the draft like Kleven who can develop into one that is great for the organization. Same can be said for good big high skilled players like Sokolov & Batherson. I like how this franchise is drafting & building a team for a long consistent playoff runs which is something they have struggled with for yrs.

Defining good is the problem though. If Tkachuk is your poster boy for good, tough players then yeah they are hard to find. That's why he was a consensus top 8 pick in his draft. He's smart, has excellent vision and he is determined to score goals. Tom Wilson was also picked in the first round but he had just had a PPG playoffs in the OHL in his draft year. He's not in Tkachuk's league but he's become a good player.

If you use players like Austin Watson, Josh Brown, Erik Gudbranson, etc. as examples that's where it falls short. They're not good. They're just tough. Watson is not a terrible player and maybe something can be salvaged from Gudranson and Brown but they are a dime a dozen.

Kleven projects more in the mold of Josh Brown or Erik Gudbranson. You can pick up players like that who are already developed for a 4th or 5th round pick. Even his ceiling is probably Marc Methot and a prime, fully developed Methot was traded for a 2nd round pick.

Jake Sanderson, Brady Tkachuk, Matthew Tkachuk, etc. showed a lot more than just toughness and physicality and are very good to great players before any physicality is considered.

At the end of the day it is skill that is hard to find. When it's combined with physicality and toughness then you have a rare player indeed. But just tough players are much easier to find than scorers.

 

[mianjo]

Gustavsson starts for Södertälje SK who lead 2-1 after first.
Lodin starts for Timra 0-0 after 1

Lodin's team lose 3-1
Gustavsson into OT 3-3 penalties Lose, he saved 2 of the 3 PS

 

[Xspyrit]

Kleven projects more in the mold of Josh Brown or Erik Gudbranson. You can pick up players like that who are already developed for a 4th or 5th round pick. Even his ceiling is probably Marc Methot and a prime, fully developed Methot was traded for a 2nd round pick.

Ok but Methot was already 32 y/o when traded and had a very long injury history... He only played 45 NHL games after that.

And seriously, after reading and watching Kleven, I don't know what ceiling he has. Seems to have a 3rd pairing floor, which is good, but at the moment he is still kinda raw, looks like a long-term project. I suggest we should be patient with this guy. We won't really know what we have with this kid until he becomes a pro.

 

[Alf Silfversson]

Ok but Methot was already 32 y/o when traded and had a very long injury history... He only played 45 NHL games after that.

And seriously, after reading and watching Kleven, I don't know what ceiling he has. Seems to have a 3rd pairing floor, which is good, but at the moment he is still kinda raw, looks like a long-term project. I suggest we should be patient with this guy. We won't really know what we have with this kid until he becomes a pro.

That's all fair enough but raw is one thing and I think Kleven is not raw; he just doesn't have any passing or puckhandling skills. Zibby was raw but you saw glimpses of a star player waiting to break out. Hell, even EK was "raw" in that he needed to figure out how to use his speed and vision to fit a pro style and he obviously needed to get bigger.

Kleven is not a real NHL option for 3-4 years AT LEAST, so patience will obviously be needed. I just have serious doubts about what it is we're actually waiting for. Looks like a PK specialist who plays on your 3rd pair to me, which is fine. I just think we could have gotten 2 prospects of that ilk (or with more upside) with the picks we traded for Kleven. And I like two better than one.

All this having been said, we're talking about a kid here. His career is just beginning and hopefully his development takes off and we end up with a Brandon Carlo type player.

 

[Xspyrit]

That's all fair enough but raw is one thing and I think Kleven is not raw; he just doesn't have any passing or puckhandling skills. Zibby was raw but you saw glimpses of a star player waiting to break out. Hell, even EK was "raw" in that he needed to figure out how to use his speed and vision to fit a pro style and he obviously needed to get bigger.

Kleven is not a real NHL option for 3-4 years AT LEAST, so patience will obviously be needed. I just have serious doubts about what it is we're actually waiting for. Looks like a PK specialist who plays on your 3rd pair to me, which is fine. I just think we could have gotten 2 prospects of that ilk (or with more upside) with the picks we traded for Kleven. And I like two better than one.

All this having been said, we're talking about a kid here. His career is just beginning and hopefully his development takes off and we end up with a Brandon Carlo type player.

I don't know... I am not involved in his development enough to have any kind of valuable judgment but according to his own coaching staff, there's a lot more development possible.

It also seems that the whole Sens scouting staff would disagree with you, because if not they wouldn't have moved up to get him. They're not stupid (even though some seem to think they are!). They know what they are doing and if you listen to Mann, it seems it wasn't just a scout or two that are high on him, but the whole bunch.

In the end, you could be right and they could be wrong. But it wouldn't be anything spectacular here as it is not an exact science. Personally, I really don't know enough about hockey and 2nd round prospects to not have a wait and see approach.

Usually I detect good NHL players a bit later in their development (like I did with Yandle and Keith back then for example, before they reached the NHL, but also not on draft day)

 

[aragorn]

Defining good is the problem though. If Tkachuk is your poster boy for good, tough players then yeah they are hard to find. That's why he was a consensus top 8 pick in his draft. He's smart, has excellent vision and he is determined to score goals. Tom Wilson was also picked in the first round but he had just had a PPG playoffs in the OHL in his draft year. He's not in Tkachuk's league but he's become a good player.

If you use players like Austin Watson, Josh Brown, Erik Gudbranson, etc. as examples that's where it falls short. They're not good. They're just tough. Watson is not a terrible player and maybe something can be salvaged from Gudranson and Brown but they are a dime a dozen.

Kleven projects more in the mold of Josh Brown or Erik Gudbranson. You can pick up players like that who are already developed for a 4th or 5th round pick. Even his ceiling is probably Marc Methot and a prime, fully developed Methot was traded for a 2nd round pick.

Jake Sanderson, Brady Tkachuk, Matthew Tkachuk, etc. showed a lot more than just toughness and physicality and are very good to great players before any physicality is considered.

At the end of the day it is skill that is hard to find. When it's combined with physicality and toughness then you have a rare player indeed. But just tough players are much easier to find than scorers.

I'm not arguing that J. Brown, Gudbranson or Watson are super skilled players, they have skill in the department that makes them NHL players & are serviceable players. No team has a player like Sanderson on the 3rd pairing, but if you can develop a player like Kleven to be a good all around player who is defensively responsible & be as good as say Marc Methot as an example that makes the team better. I'm all for high skill on the team, but I also recognize that every team fighting for a cup also has a combination of bigger & tougher players or a balance that gives them the ability to play different styles when called upon like playing a tough style, if needed or when required. You may not think so & that's fine we all have our opinions on what kind of players we prefer.

IMO the better players they have in their bottom pairs & bottom six improves the team as a whole especially if they can contribute more than bottom sixers & 3rd pairings who were on this team in the past. It's not just about improving the top six or top two pairs, but improving the team as a whole IMO improves the team considerably. NYI have one of the best 4th lines in hockey, and people know who they are because of it. I don't know of any team that has high skill like you keep talking about on every line, it's mostly the top two lines & the top two pairs, if they are lucky or a very good team. Those teams that improve their bottom lines & bottom pairs improve their teams IMO. The Leafs have a skilled team & they are soft as butter & hopefully we kick the shit out of them next season in every game. Good tough players are hard to find, transitional players are a dime a dozen.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I'm not arguing that J. Brown, Gudbranson or Watson are super skilled players, they have skill in the department that makes them NHL players & are serviceable players. No team has a player like Sanderson on the 3rd pairing, but if you can develop a player like Kleven to be a good all around player who is defensively responsible & be as good as say Marc Methot as an example that makes the team better. I'm all for high skill on the team, but I also recognize that every team fighting for a cup also has a combination of bigger & tougher players or a balance that gives them the ability to play different styles when called upon like playing a tough style, if needed or when require. You may not think so & that's fine we all have our opinions on what kind of players we prefer.

IMO the better players they have in their bottom pairs & bottom six improves the team as a whole especially if they can contribute more than bottom sixers & 3rd pairings who were on this team in the past. It's not just about improving the top six or top two pairs, but improving the team as a whole IMO improves the team considerably. NYI have one of the best 4th lines in hockey, and people know who they are because of it. I don't know of any team that has high skill like you keep talking about on every line, it's mostly the top two lines & the top two pairs, if they are lucky or a very good team. Those teams that improve their bottom lines & bottom pairs improve their teams IMO. The Leafs have a skilled team & they are soft as butter & hopefully we kick the shit out of them next season in every game. Good tough players are hard to find, transitional players are a dime a dozen.

I'm not arguing that J. Brown, Gudbranson or Watson are super skilled players, they have skill in the department that makes them NHL players & are serviceable players. No team has a player like Sanderson on the 3rd pairing, but if you can develop a player like Kleven to be a good all around player who is defensively responsible & be as good as say Marc Methot as an example that makes the team better. I'm all for high skill on the team, but I also recognize that every team fighting for a cup also has a combination of bigger & tougher players or a balance that gives them the ability to play different styles when called upon like playing a tough style, if needed or when require. You may not think so & that's fine we all have our opinions on what kind of players we prefer.

IMO the better players they have in their bottom pairs & bottom six improves the team as a whole especially if they can contribute more than bottom sixers & 3rd pairings who were on this team in the past. It's not just about improving the top six or top two pairs, but improving the team as a whole IMO improves the team considerably. NYI have one of the best 4th lines in hockey, and people know who they are because of it. I don't know of any team that has high skill like you keep talking about on every line, it's mostly the top two lines & the top two pairs, if they are lucky or a very good team. Those teams that improve their bottom lines & bottom pairs improve their teams IMO. The Leafs have a skilled team & they are soft as butter & hopefully we kick the shit out of them next season in every game. Good tough players are hard to find, transitional players are a dime a dozen.

As an alternative to trading 59 and 64 for 44 we could have drafted and that unranked goalie at 71 we could have drafted a 1st year eligible big power line of Cuylle, Pytlik and Groshev or Coe.

If we wanted a D we could have drafted Nikishin or Jurmo.. I 'd have gone with Jurmo because of his size, skating, hands combination.
We could have taken a riskier swing on a smaller highly skilled (top 6) upside player at 181.

 

[aragorn]

As an alternative to trading 59 and 64 for 44 we could have drafted and that unranked goalie at 71 we could have drafted a 1st year eligible big power line of Cuylle, Pytlik and Groshev or Coe.

If we wanted a D we could have drafted Nikishin or Jurmo.. I 'd have gone with Jurmo because of his size, skating, hands combination.
We could have taken a riskier swing on a smaller highly skilled (top 6) upside player at 181.

I was really hoping for Cuylle in the 2nd rd, I also liked Pytlik & Coe & Groshev seemed like a good player based on the info you & Rafi provided. They could have gone different ways for sure, who knows how they arrived at the players they did, they clearly wanted them because there was a lot of choice with every pick. I was surprised at how far down Jurmo fell, I really thought he would have gone around 40th to 50th, I think he went 81st.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I was really hoping for Cuylle in the 2nd rd, I also liked Pytlik & Coe & Groshev seemed like a good player based on the info you & Rafi provided. They could have gone different ways for sure, who knows how they arrived at the players they did, they clearly wanted them because there was a lot of choice with every pick. I was surprised at how far down Jurmo fell, I really thought he would have gone around 40th to 50th, I think he went 81st.

Yah... I mean I am more familiar with the 1st year guys admittedly but .. just seems odd to draft 3 double overagers when that type of player is available as a 1st year eligible and they are a few steps ahead of where the other guys were at the same age.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Looks like Thomson is on the 3rd pairing for Ilves at least for that game

 

[Johnny Hanson]

Looks like Thomson is on the 3rd pairing for Ilves at least for that game

Not necessarily the most encouraging sign

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Not necessarily the most encouraging sign

That will have to change before we start penciling him into the NHL lineup. That right side appears to remain a work in progress

 

[mianjo]

Thomson's team not playing today, that lineup posted was for a game 5 days ago Ilves lost 4-2

 

[mianjo]

0-0 after 1

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Thomson's team not playing today, that lineup posted was for a game 5 days ago Ilves lost 4-2

I saw the date mianjo.. just trying to track what's happening with him... A post from a couple weeks back did say he did not have a big role.. I was hoping that was just due to preseason.. its 5 days old not like its from a month ago or more

 

[mianjo]

0-0 after 1

Lead 1-0 after 2

 

[mianjo]

Eric Engsrand on the first line for Malmo today

 

[mianjo]

Abramov scores, 2-0 late in 3rd.

Now 2-1.

 

[mianjo]

Brannstrom on 2nd defence pairing, game just started

 

[mianjo]

Eric Engsrand on the first line for Malmo today

He received his first point an assist but then it was taken away from him 1-1 after 1