Prospect Info: 2020 1st Rd Selection - #15 OA - LW Rodion Amirov (RUS) - 6'0", 177lbs Part II

[Spargon]

The idea the Leafs are a team of undersized small guys is so laughable. Yes some prospects were small when drafted but these are 17 year old kids with room to grow ffs.

Look at this link and yes there are a few guys in the 5'9 ranged and a few guys are more slight 170-180 lbs but for the most part the players are over 6ft 200lbs

Toronto Maple Leafs Team Roster - NHL - MSN Sports

People need to get over size 6'4 220lbs doesn't automatically mean superstar and under 6 ft 200 isn't instant failure or never going to succeed

 

[ponder]

The idea the Leafs are a team of undersized small guys is so laughable. Yes some prospects were small when drafted but these are 17 year old kids with room to grow ffs.

Look at this link and yes there are a few guys in the 5'9 ranged and a few guys are more slight 170-180 lbs but for the most part the players are over 6ft 200lbs

Toronto Maple Leafs Team Roster - NHL - MSN Sports

People need to get over size 6'4 220lbs doesn't automatically mean superstar and under 6 ft 200 isn't instant failure or never going to succeed

Agreed - there was a time when the Leafs were small and soft, but next year’s team isn’t. Adding guys like Muzzin, Bogosian and Simmonds makes a big difference to our toughness. And we’ve got plenty of guys who are less mean, but still big. Matthews, Mikheyev, Holl, Thornton, Spezza, Engvall, Vesey, all 6’3”+.

Robertson and Kerfoot are small, and Marner is skinny, but that’s it for undersized players. Guys like Dermott, Sandin and Barbanov have slightly below average height, but are quite strong/stocky, they’re more average size/toughness than undersized.

We aren’t going to be a bully team, but we’ve got at least average size and toughness now.

 

[X66]

The biggest embarrassment is people think the Leafs are losing in the playoffs because they're not physically strong enough.

Can't get dumber OR lazier than that.

Every single series they've lost in the Matthews' era has nothing to do with physicality, but actual skill, goaltending and coaching...

Caps series they were heavy underdogs, but got burned on special teams. They weren't bullied that series.

Bruins first time around, another series where the Bruins skill beat the Leafs, special teams was garbage again, and Andersen choked in game 7(leafs had a lead going into the 3rd)

Bruins second time around, the Leafs were the more physical team, but guess what, Bruins skill and Andersen with another game 7 meltdown was all it took.

And finally, the Columbus series, physicality had NOTHING to do with that series, Leafs carried play most of the series but again, lost the goaltending battle.

Literally none of those series were lost because of them being physically out muscled, it's such a dumb take that it's almost fitting for some Leafs fans to buy into it lol.

 

[TheKule]

The biggest embarrassment is people think the Leafs are losing in the playoffs because they're not physically strong enough.

Can't get dumber OR lazier than that.

Every single series they've lost in the Matthews' era has nothing to do with physicality, but actual skill, goaltending and coaching...

Caps series they were heavy underdogs, but got burned on special teams. They weren't bullied that series.

Bruins first time around, another series where the Bruins skill beat the Leafs, special teams was garbage again, and Andersen choked in game 7(leafs had a lead going into the 3rd)

Bruins second time around, the Leafs were the more physical team, but guess what, Bruins skill and Andersen with another game 7 meltdown was all it took.

And finally, the Columbus series, physicality had NOTHING to do with that series, Leafs carried play most of the series but again, lost the goaltending battle.

Literally none of those series were lost because of them being physically out muscled, it's such a dumb take that it's almost fitting for some Leafs fans to buy into it lol.

It's a simple narrative for lazy hockey people. Game 2 in 2019 is the only one where the Leafs were outmatched physically and it was an atrociously reffed game at that. One could argue that the Leafs struggle to generate offense off the cycle and crash the net, but the Jackets and Bruins are stout teams with excellent d-zone play and sometimes the other team plays well. Just my opinion.

 

[Welsh Maple Leaf]

The biggest embarrassment is people think the Leafs are losing in the playoffs because they're not physically strong enough.

Can't get dumber OR lazier than that.

Every single series they've lost in the Matthews' era has nothing to do with physicality, but actual skill, goaltending and coaching...

Caps series they were heavy underdogs, but got burned on special teams. They weren't bullied that series.

Bruins first time around, another series where the Bruins skill beat the Leafs, special teams was garbage again, and Andersen choked in game 7(leafs had a lead going into the 3rd)

Bruins second time around, the Leafs were the more physical team, but guess what, Bruins skill and Andersen with another game 7 meltdown was all it took.

And finally, the Columbus series, physicality had NOTHING to do with that series, Leafs carried play most of the series but again, lost the goaltending battle.

Literally none of those series were lost because of them being physically out muscled, it's such a dumb take that it's almost fitting for some Leafs fans to buy into it lol.

Why did we sign the likes of Bogo and Simmonds?

If it wasn’t for their physicality then I don’t get it.

I think we are close and a little extra physicality was missing.

 

[ACC1224]

Why did we sign the likes of Bogo and Simmonds?

If it wasn’t for their physicality then I don’t get it.

I think we are close and a little extra physicality was missing.

Pro tip.
Once someone says you’re ‘dumb’ if you don’t believe what they do, they aren’t worth listening to.

 

[X66]

Why did we sign the likes of Bogo and Simmonds?

If it wasn’t for their physicality then I don’t get it.

I think we are close and a little extra physicality was missing.

Having your team have different looks has nothing to do with your team getting physically dominated.

Those are two completely different things.

 

[stickty111]

Why did we sign the likes of Bogo and Simmonds?

If it wasn’t for their physicality then I don’t get it.

I think we are close and a little extra physicality was missing.

Dubas would have likely still signed them even if they had less physicality. They were mainly brought in for their leadership and bringing in a different element. Sure physicality has something to do with it, but it's not the main reason. Lets remember Dubas was interested in Bogosian during the deadline.

 

[hobarth]

Yeah but it is working. It's not just Leafs fans as you said. The trusted scouting experts say Leafs drafting has been good since Dubas took over.

Who are those trusted scouting experts, The Hockey News rated the Leaf prospect system #23 in the latest edition of Future Watch, 2 were rated in the top 100, Robertson at #34 and Lily at #64, they obviously felt that Sandin was a Leaf, Bracco was TO's next highest rated prospect.

The parallels between Hirvonen and Bracco is lack of north/south speed which is a major reason why Bracco hasn't/won't ever make the NHL so unless Hirvonen becomes faster he probably won't have an NHL future unless he becomes a top 6 forward.

People complaining about the Hirvonen pick couldn't name 2 players within his draft range yet have such strong opinions on a player they've never watched play.

When Bracco was drafted it was pretty obvious that his route to the NHL was extremely limited because of his size and skating ability.

 

[LeafChief]

When Bracco was drafted it was pretty obvious that his route to the NHL was extremely limited because of his size and skating ability.

My post doesn't mention Bracco in any way, shape or form.

 

[hobarth]

My post doesn't mention Bracco in any way, shape or form.

Mine did, Hironen/Bracco have essentially had the same resume, it's like TO is going down the same path not learning from history.

Size isn't the issue so much as a player's desire to win succeed in any role, TO seems to be constantly going the talent route when drafting rather than also acknowledging that other facets of player's games have value, only home runs for TO but the home runs can't even get on base.

 

[stickty111]

Who are those trusted scouting experts, The Hockey News rated the Leaf prospect system #23 in the latest edition of Future Watch, 2 were rated in the top 100, Robertson at #34 and Lily at #64, they obviously felt that Sandin was a Leaf, Bracco was TO's next highest rated prospect.

The parallels between Hirvonen and Bracco is lack of north/south speed which is a major reason why Bracco hasn't/won't ever make the NHL so unless Hirvonen becomes faster he probably won't have an NHL future unless he becomes a top 6 forward.



When Bracco was drafted it was pretty obvious that his route to the NHL was extremely limited because of his size and skating ability.

Nice work moving the points to suit your narrative. The point had nothing to do with the rankings, but the progress of the prospects and the experts say they have progressed well.
Actually the biggest reason Bracco won't make it is because he has an awful compete level and bad defensively. Hirvonen is already a plus in both, but why would you mention that?
Hirvonen has a chance of making it because he isn't a big useless player, and has nice skills.
Conviently you didn't respond to the other posts? Admitting you were incorrect?

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Mine did, Hironen/Bracco have essentially had the same resume, it's like TO is going down the same path not learning from history.

Size isn't the issue so much as a player's desire to win succeed in any role, TO seems to be constantly going the talent route when drafting rather than also acknowledging that other facets of player's games have value, only home runs for TO but the home runs can't even get on base.

If you just ignore that Hirvonen is a center who played against men and is known for being driven, defensively responsible, and thrives in dangerous areas and Bracco is a junior winger who is known for lazy perimeter play and a lack of commitment off the ice, I can see why you would come to the conclusion that they're similar

 

[stickty111]

Mine did, Hironen/Bracco have essentially had the same resume, it's like TO is going down the same path not learning from history.

Size isn't the issue so much as a player's desire to win succeed in any role, TO seems to be constantly going the talent route when drafting rather than also acknowledging that other facets of player's games have value, only home runs for TO but the home runs can't even get on base.

Please stop with these silly incorrect facts. Bracco and Hirvonen don't have the same resume. You can pretend that they do. Educate yourself and read the article on Hirvonen.
You mean the history of picking big size players who are failures?
Leafs look to have home runs. Sandin and Robertson plus other guys as well. Research helps.

 

[stickty111]

If you just ignore that Hirvonen is a center who played against men and is known for being driven, defensively responsible, and thrives in dangerous areas and Bracco is a junior winger who is known for lazy perimeter play and a lack of commitment off the ice, I can see why you would come to the conclusion that they're similar

Pretty obvious facts don't play a part here.

 

[stickty111]

No, they are not. Did you even read the article about Hirvonen?

"Hirvonen is certainly on the smaller end but doesn’t really share a similar toolbox to the stereotypical “undersized skilled forward”. Those players are very fast, strong offensively, weak defensively, and tend to shy away from high traffic areas. Hirvonen is the opposite of that."

"When his team is out of possession, Hirvonen is a relentless puck hunter. He anticipates the play extremely well, which leads to him generating takeaways. There really isn’t enough that can be said about his activeness, as he never seems to stop moving. In addition, Hirvonen isn’t shy to throw his body around to make a play and never backs down from a battle."

If your takeaway from the article is that he's just like Bracco, it's because you either didn't read it or you're being deliberately dishonest

Read this @hobarth, and tell me they are similar.

Not that I need to post this because the facts all go against you, but here is Wheeler on the Leafs draft.

Three of the Leafs’ picks in 2019 (Nick Robertson, Mikhail Abramov and Nick Abruzzese) exceeded expectations last season. All three, despite each having their own question marks, fit the same mould: They were driven when they didn’t have the puck, slippery when they had it, and well-rounded offensively rather than dynamic in one specific. In Roni Hirvonen (No. 30 on my board), the Leafs found a similar type. Versatile, hard-working, highly-talented, and capable of manufacturing offence in several ways, instead of one. Those who doubt Kyle Dubas’ approach will be off-put by the 5-foot-9 frame. I see a player who, if he picks up a step, may have slightly higher upside than most of the other players available with the pick.

Lets see. Exceeded expectations? Driven off the puck, skilled? Hard working?
So where is the Bracco comparison, and that Leafs drafting is bad? You have no evidence despite all your attempts.


Not similar to other undersized forwards.

 

[LeafChief]

Mine did, Hironen/Bracco have essentially had the same resume, it's like TO is going down the same path not learning from history.

Size isn't the issue so much as a player's desire to win succeed in any role, TO seems to be constantly going the talent route when drafting rather than also acknowledging that other facets of player's games have value, only home runs for TO but the home runs can't even get on base.

I forgot Bracco was drafted out of Liiga.

 

[orbiter11]

Mine did, Hironen/Bracco have essentially had the same resume, it's like TO is going down the same path not learning from history.

Size isn't the issue so much as a player's desire to win succeed in any role, TO seems to be constantly going the talent route when drafting rather than also acknowledging that other facets of player's games have value, only home runs for TO but the home runs can't even get on base.

This is basically my thoughts as well. No one is saying we want to bring back Brian Burke drafting strategies Were saying, we get that drafting talent first regardless of size might produce more NHLers but people are forgetting compete level and an overall toughness to your game also gets you to the NHL (Debrusk type players). In this years draft I honestly was dumb founded that Dubas doubled down on super small players almost the entire draft and once again ignored taking BPA D man in the top 3 rounds. Its almost as if he does it on purpose. Ive seen a lot of tape on Schneider and he has extreme leadership qualities and plays kinda like Luke Schenn did when he was drafted. Maybe hell kinda bust like Schenn but maybe hell turn out like Manson or Parayko do we just never try to get a potential # 1 D man is that what im hearing the Dubas sycophants say? If the answer is, we will if we draft one top 5 in the draft, we may not draft top 5 for the next 10 years.

 

[Drew311]

Am I in the Hirvonen thread?

 

[Martin Skoula]

This is basically my thoughts as well. No one is saying we want to bring back Brian Burke drafting strategies Were saying, we get that drafting talent first regardless of size might produce more NHLers but people are forgetting compete level and an overall toughness to your game also gets you to the NHL (Debrusk type players). In this years draft I honestly was dumb founded that Dubas doubled down on super small players almost the entire draft and once again ignored taking BPA D man in the top 3 rounds. Its almost as if he does it on purpose. Ive seen a lot of tape on Schneider and he has extreme leadership qualities and plays kinda like Luke Schenn did when he was drafted. Maybe hell kinda bust like Schenn but maybe hell turn out like Manson or Parayko do we just never try to get a potential # 1 D man is that what im hearing the Dubas sycophants say? If the answer is, we will if we draft one top 5 in the draft, we may not draft top 5 for the next 10 years.

The two D you named as ceilings for our 15th overall pick were both drafted outside the first 3 rounds and took years to develop.

Collect 2nd-5th round picks every year and take D with IQ, don't take Schenn 5th OA.

 

[orbiter11]

Ok im sorry, Dougie Hamilton, Brandon Carlo both taken within the top 45. I can go on if you like (and Parayko was a 3rd rounder) but my feeling is Dubas wouldn't take a player like that inside the top 5 rounds regardless, that's my point. I guess the point your making is theres no reason to draft a big potential NHL d man in the first 3 rounds period, got it....

 

[Namikaze Minato]

Am I in the Hirvonen thread?

No, this thread is about former leaf Jeremy Bracco now.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Ok im sorry, Dougie Hamilton, Brandon Carlo both taken within the top 45. I can go on if you like (and Parayko was a 3rd rounder) but my feeling is Dubas wouldn't take a player like that inside the top 5 rounds regardless, that's my point. I guess the point your making is theres no reason to draft a big potential NHL d man in the first 3 rounds period, got it....

We picked D with our first pick two years in a row. We have what, 6-7 guys playing big minutes in high level pro leagues at 19, 20 years old. Is it literally just height you're so worried about? 6'1 isn't good enough, they need to be minimum 6'3?

My point is that you're complaining about 1 of our 10 picks not being a tall defenseman. Most high end D come from either a top-5 pick or from outside the first round. Reaching just because it's a tall D is how you wind up with Rasanen.

 

[93LEAFS]

Ok im sorry, Dougie Hamilton, Brandon Carlo both taken within the top 45. I can go on if you like (and Parayko was a 3rd rounder) but my feeling is Dubas wouldn't take a player like that inside the top 5 rounds regardless, that's my point. I guess the point your making is theres no reason to draft a big potential NHL d man in the first 3 rounds period, got it....

He'd take Hamilton given his production. He obviously doesn't like to gamble on projectable big d-men though who lack production given his drafting over the past 3 years. Now, most of those guys turn bust, but almost everything past the 2nd round turns to bust. He seems to have locked into certain styles and think that's where the percentages are likely to hit. Granted, acquiring the post-2nd round raw big defencemen to hit is almost impossible to acquire without deeming what it would require an overpayment. This will make acquiring guys like Parayko, Josh Manson, Slaven, Pesce, Hjalmarsson, David Savard, Ekholm, while they are still in their primes very difficult because we aren't drafting guys with the chance of developing into that and teams won't trade guys like that. Which means you have to either buy their later years as a UFA (and outside the very elite branch of these guys those deals don't age well) or trade for them as rentals and re-up them similar to Muzzin. I'm not saying we need to hammer big D late like we did in 2016, although, I would like to see the occasional gamble on that mould of player such as a 3rd to 5th rounder every so often. Talking drafting philosophy in general, but a ton of these high-scoring smaller guys in junior who lack a trait to make them a clear high pick like Marner or Kane, also miss, just look at Bracco and Petan. Just like you will find the occasional Point, Gaudreau or MSL of young high-scoring guys who were overlooked for a variety of reasons, you'll also find the occasional raw huge defenceman who hits like Chara, Slavin, Byfuglien. Every pick outside the top 10 of a draft is going to have massive bust risk, and by the end of the 2nd its massive. Not that you should waste these picks, but using the occasional pick to try to find guy in the mould of one of the hardest things to acquire is a worthy investment in my eyes.

 

[hobarth]

As far as Amirov is concerned, I like him as a selection for TO, he has good to great upside and he's already showing a desire to be a well rounded player, not just all offense. This is the type of player that probably will end up a Leaf even if he doesn't realize the potential we hope for. Talent and character wrapped up in one player, a Hossa clone perhaps, great selection.