Speculation: 2019-20 News/Rumors,Roster thread Post Deadline

[BigKing]

I don't know...Kempe seems to be exactly what he was projected to be. There wasn't star potential but the complete bust possibility was also low.

Perfect kind of pick at the end of the first round for a team that had designs of being a dynasty at the time of the pick. When the wheels fall off though and he's your top prospect, all of a sudden it becomes real important for him to blossom in to a legit 2W/2C as opposed to slotting in on the 3rd line on a good team.

If he is still a King in the final year of his contract, he may finally just be that good 3rd line player on a good team. This team would look worlds different if skill could be injected in the Top 6 and your 3rd line is rolling some speed and tenacity combo like Kempe/Iafallo against softer match ups. Wagner fits in to this great speed in the Bottom 6 role as well.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Teaching a player how to be a consistent is one of the goals of a development staff. I could buy the argument that Kempe needed more time in the AHL. But he remains the top draft pick to pass through the Kings system for the current dev staff. And his results have under performed his prospect potential.

Saying that it is on the player for underperforming or pointing out their low draft position doesn’t hold water in my opinion when there are zero prospect wins in over 5 years with the development staff team.

Right, I’m sure it’s easy to teach someone to be consistent. If there’s a development coach out there who’s accomplished that, please point them out to me.

And explain Iafallo too and his numbers opposed to Kempe. We saw Matt Roy go from a struggling defenseman to the most trusted player on the blueline. Much like your unrealistic expectations from mid-to-late bottom six forwards, you set unreasonable expectations from a coaching staff to turn a player into something he is not.

 

[King'sPawn]

Teaching a player how to be a consistent is one of the goals of a development staff. I could buy the argument that Kempe needed more time in the AHL. But he remains the top draft pick to pass through the Kings system for the current dev staff. And his results have under performed his prospect potential.

Saying that it is on the player for underperforming or pointing out their low draft position doesn’t hold water in my opinion when there are zero prospect wins in over 5 years with the development staff team.

Consistency comes with age and maturity. That's not on the development staff, in my opinion.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I'm not at all following what the argument is that Kempe isn't fulfilling his potential. Just because he's toolsy doesn't necessarily mean he has a high ceiling. He could just as easily have been Rob Schremp or Eric Christensen. Especially given his literal draft spot comps were posted and I'd pick him over any one of those guys in a heartbeat. If he settles in as Andrew Cogliano, are we really mad and calling the development staff a failure? It's a weird flashpoint since outcomes so far have nearly perfectly matched the scouting report and worries.

"wanting more" =/= busting relative to draft position. It sounds like the worst thing he's done for peoples expectations of him was that hat trick vs. MTL.

 

[King'sPawn]

I'm not at all following what the argument is that Kempe isn't fulfilling his potential. Just because he's toolsy doesn't necessarily mean he has a high ceiling. He could just as easily have been Rob Schremp or Eric Christensen. Especially given his literal draft spot comps were posted and I'd pick him over any one of those guys in a heartbeat. If he settles in as Andrew Cogliano, are we really mad and calling the development staff a failure? It's a weird flashpoint since outcomes so far have nearly perfectly matched the scouting report and worries.

"wanting more" =/= busting relative to draft position. It sounds like the worst thing he's done for peoples expectations of him was that hat trick vs. MTL.

Agree. I don't have a problem with Kempe in particular. But I do have questions of the results of development as an aggregate.

 

[Sparky206]

Kempe is still a very young player and still has room to develop into something more in the future dispite being on the team for a number of years. His contract is favourable to the team so he's certainly not getting overpaid for potential. If he ends up being a 3mil third line speedy winger then that's what he is. The potential to develop is still there but I don't see why everyone wants to throw him to the wolves because he couldn't become the 2C they wanted him to be.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Agree. I don't have a problem with Kempe in particular. But I do have questions of the results of development as an aggregate.

It was such a very thin and barren talent pool to begin with prior to 2017. Now if they show little results from the current group of prospects that they’ve drafted and acquired, then that would be a cause for concern.

When was the last time the pipeline was this deep? 2010 maybe?

 

[Rusty Batch]

It was such a very thin and barren talent pool to begin with prior to 2017. Now if they show little results from the current group of prospects that they’ve drafted and acquired, then that would be a cause for concern.

When was the last time the pipeline was this deep? 2010 maybe?

After this draft our prospect pool will be so deep it'll put your butt to sleep.

 

[King'sPawn]

It was such a very thin and barren talent pool to begin with prior to 2017. Now if they show little results from the current group of prospects that they’ve drafted and acquired, then that would be a cause for concern.

When was the last time the pipeline was this deep? 2010 maybe?

The thing is, the amateur scouts were able to pick out Iafallo where he was not only NHL ready right away, but he was the top line left wing right away.

The amateur scouts can identify talent. As it stands, an undrafted free agent who didn't go through the Kings developmental system is the top line left wing.

You can argue that the pool was thin, but they have the same scouts who are and were able to identify talent. It's not like the Kings had zero picks. I acknowledge and agree the pool was thin, but I just don't think it's a valid explanation. To me, the options are:
A) people think the development and drafting for this team is fine
B) the scouting staff struggles to identify talent
C) the development staff struggles to develop certain skill sets to develop top end talent. They develop professionals, which is also important, but for the next level, I've yet to see results.

As a whole, the top player they've developed this decade is Toffoli, who was an inconsistent 2nd line winger when he was on the Kings. I don't expect them to make a line-up of all-stars, but one difference maker up front who is a bigger contributor/role than a 23 year-old undrafted free agent or a 35 year-old skilled, but grinding winger is not unreasonable.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The thing is, the amateur scouts were able to pick out Iafallo where he was not only NHL ready right away, but he was the top line left wing right away.

The amateur scouts can identify talent. As it stands, an undrafted free agent who didn't go through the Kings developmental system is the top line left wing.

You can argue that the pool was thin, but they have the same scouts who are and were able to identify talent. It's not like the Kings had zero picks. I acknowledge and agree the pool was thin, but I just don't think it's a valid explanation. To me, the options are:
A) people think the development and drafting for this team is fine
B) the scouting staff struggles to identify talent
C) the development staff struggles to develop certain skill sets to develop top end talent. They develop professionals, which is also important, but for the next level, I've yet to see results.

As a whole, the top player they've developed this decade is Toffoli, who was an inconsistent 2nd line winger when he was on the Kings. I don't expect them to make a line-up of all-stars, but one difference maker up front who is a bigger contributor/role than a 23 year-old undrafted free agent or a 35 year-old skilled, but grinding winger is not unreasonable.

I think that falls on the GM who moved away a lot of pieces for quick fixes. Has there been any prospect they’ve mishandled? I don’t think they’ve had many worthy ones to begin with.

Most of the results are decent depth guys because for the most part, that’s all they had in the pipeline, and I’ve been vocal in my displeasure with their lack of emphasis on drafting talent, something previous management group did a poor job of addressing.

 

[bland]

Consistency comes with age and maturity. That's not on the development staff, in my opinion.

I disagree, but that's not really my issue with Kempe's development.

At 23, a player needs to know who he is, what he does well, what he needs to work on. The organization needs to help him determine this, reinforce the positives and harness the negatives so they can maximize his value.

This was Kempe's "problem" in his pre-draft year. He played so few minutes but his physicality and gifts kept him in a mens league. Nobody could get a good read on him. When he came to LA, it was still an unknown - nobody is ever a finished product but by 18 you have a pretty good idea what path a player is on.

And nothing has changed. Is he a center or a winger? Should he be counted on to produce on the PP? What exactly are his strengths, and what has anybody done to help him figure it out or dictate it to him?

23 is no longer "young" in the NHL. He is entering his offensive prime, yet appears destined to be a 3rd liner on this poor team while we continue to be wooed by those 10 games a year he shows flashes of potential.

I like him very much. I like his edge, I like his skating, I like his size. But he just doesn't accomplish much, and neither the player nor the team appears to know what they should rightfully expect of him. It's not terribly removed from the way Brian Boyle was handled an era or two ago.

Luckily this is a bad team with some time to figure it out.

 

[King'sPawn]

I disagree, but that's not really my issue with Kempe's development.

At 23, a player needs to know who he is, what he does well, what he needs to work on. The organization needs to help him determine this, reinforce the positives and harness the negatives so they can maximize his value.

This was Kempe's "problem" in his pre-draft year. He played so few minutes but his physicality and gifts kept him in a mens league. Nobody could get a good read on him. When he came to LA, it was still an unknown - nobody is ever a finished product but by 18 you have a pretty good idea what path a player is on.

And nothing has changed. Is he a center or a winger? Should he be counted on to produce on the PP? What exactly are his strengths, and what has anybody done to help him figure it out or dictate it to him?

23 is no longer "young" in the NHL. He is entering his offensive prime, yet appears destined to be a 3rd liner on this poor team while we continue to be wooed by those 10 games a year he shows flashes of potential.

I like him very much. I like his edge, I like his skating, I like his size. But he just doesn't accomplish much, and neither the player nor the team appears to know what they should rightfully expect of him. It's not terribly removed from the way Brian Boyle was handled an era or two ago.

Luckily this is a bad team with some time to figure it out.

I agree. It's reticent of what goalies say Dusty Imoo has said to them, "play your game." You see how the goaltending staff lets the players embrace the style that works for the goalies and fixes the rough edges.

Of course, I know the dynamic is different when you have 2-3 goalies versus 12-13 skaters. And with TMac, he has the right idea: play your game, but in my system.

Identity, and embracing it to let a player grow, is crucial. It's why Muzzin became a very good top pairing defenseman. He made mistakes, but he played his game and pushed the boundaries. They were teaching moments for him.

I maintain that as late first, being a regular in the NHL removes the disappointment tag from Kempe. And I commend the development staff for churning out yet another NHL regular, but ...

I think that falls on the GM who moved away a lot of pieces for quick fixes. Has there been any prospect they’ve mishandled? I don’t think they’ve had many worthy ones to begin with.

Most of the results are decent depth guys because for the most part, that’s all they had in the pipeline, and I’ve been vocal in my displeasure with their lack of emphasis on drafting talent, something previous management group did a poor job of addressing.

It's not so much about mishandling as it is taking/developing a player to the next level.

Do I think the developmental team is bad? Absolutely not. They do a fantastic job preparing the players to be professionals and give them the best chance to have a good NHL career on one team or another.

But one of my biggest philosophies is making sure your system is churning out players to fill holes so:
- players currently in that role can be moved to a more appropriate role and:
- players can be traded

@KINGS17 and I have had hot debates about this. Most notably trading Carter. He felt the Kings should have traded Carter, and has felt that way for years; get good value on a good player. It's not unreasonable. I just value having players ready to stand on their own two feet first, which is why I've advocated trading Toffoli for years.

I feel this is the best approach, because the free agent market causes teams to overpay for competency or put players in over their heads.

Granted, Vilardi is an extenuating circumstance, and he's returned well. But ultimately, nobody in the system was able to supplant Carter, but at least Kempe could try to fill Toffoli's role of an inconsistent winger trying to find his niche.

So to just make it clear, the staff isn't bad. They don't ruin careers. There's just not one case of taking a forward to the next level. If they need top picks to churn out one top 6 winger, then the organization is going to go through a cycle of mediocrity every few years where they need to struggle again to have a top pick save them. That's my concern.

 

[Statto]

Teaching a player how to be a consistent is one of the goals of a development staff. I could buy the argument that Kempe needed more time in the AHL. But he remains the top draft pick to pass through the Kings system for the current dev staff. And his results have under performed his prospect potential.

Saying that it is on the player for underperforming or pointing out their low draft position doesn’t hold water in my opinion when there are zero prospect wins in over 5 years with the development staff team.

Actually there has been massive improvement in certain aspects of Kempes game. His compete level and 200 ft game have become predictably good and he’s become the leader of his line, playing with a edge. TMac now knows what he’s going to get from him every game. We can all agree that he has some untapped offensive upside but he’s not yet the finished article and we need to see a full year of him at LW.

 

[KingsFan7824]

The thing is, the amateur scouts were able to pick out Iafallo where he was not only NHL ready right away, but he was the top line left wing right away.

The amateur scouts can identify talent. As it stands, an undrafted free agent who didn't go through the Kings developmental system is the top line left wing.

He was also 23 years old when he signed in April 2017. That's a world of difference from 18. By the time the season started, he was about 3 months away from being 24. Since we're talking about him, Kempe won't be 24 until September, and it seems like he's been in the organization forever. That's how old Iafallo was. I believe his original draft year would've been 2011, and not a soul picked him. Also, did anyone expect him to be the top line LW, either when he signed, or going into camp? Have some complained for 2+ years about the fact that he's been on the 1st line? Or at least talked about how the team didn't have a better option for 1LW?

As a whole, the top player they've developed this decade is Toffoli, who was an inconsistent 2nd line winger when he was on the Kings. I don't expect them to make a line-up of all-stars, but one difference maker up front who is a bigger contributor/role than a 23 year-old undrafted free agent or a 35 year-old skilled, but grinding winger is not unreasonable.

Between 2006 and 2009, the rebuilding years, other than the #5 overall pick, they drafted one forward who could be considered close to a difference maker, and even that might be a stretch. More of a skilled but grinding winger.

Lombardi didn't draft Kopitar, but can you give him/his group credit for developing Kopitar? Spent one more year in Sweden after being drafted, and is the son of a coach. Came to the NHL, and didn't spend a second outside of it. That's not development, he was just ready. Same with Doughty. Quick, Muzzin, different stories. Brown, without the lockout, I don't know that he ends up in Manchester for a year. Not that that was in the DL era anyway.

So to just make it clear, the staff isn't bad. They don't ruin careers. There's just not one case of taking a forward to the next level. If they need top picks to churn out one top 6 winger, then the organization is going to go through a cycle of mediocrity every few years where they need to struggle again to have a top pick save them. That's my concern.

Brown-Kopitar-Williams
Penner-Richards-Carter

That's a 13th pick, 11th pick, 28th pick, a guy that cost a 1st, another guy that cost a former 5th overall pick, and was the 24th pick himself, and another guy that cost a 1st, and a former 3rd overall pick, and was the 11th pick himself.

Gaborik-Kopitar-Brown
Pearson-Carter-Toffoli

That's a former 3rd overall pick, an 11th pick, a 13th pick, a 30th pick, a guy that cost a 1st, and a former 3rd overall pick, and was the 11th pick himself, and the best pick of the Kings since 2010.

Not a ton of mid to late round picks being developed for teams that won the Cup.

If you end up with a top line player from mid to late round picks, by either luck or incredible development, that's a luxury. That's the exception. Not that 1st round picks don't sometimes bust, but the vast majority of the real talent on your team is going to come from the top of the draft. Doesn't have to necessarily be a top 5 pick, but you're probably more likely to get that guy at 12 than 52, even if your development staff is made up of complete strangers who were blindly hired on resume alone.

 

[King'sPawn]

He was also 23 years old when he signed in April 2017. That's a world of difference from 18. By the time the season started, he was about 3 months away from being 24. Since we're talking about him, Kempe won't be 24 until September, and it seems like he's been in the organization forever. That's how old Iafallo was. I believe his original draft year would've been 2011, and not a soul picked him. Also, did anyone expect him to be the top line LW, either when he signed, or going into camp? Have some complained for 2+ years about the fact that he's been on the 1st line? Or at least talked about how the team didn't have a better option for 1LW?

No, but that's the point. There is still nobody yet to supplant him.

Between 2006 and 2009, the rebuilding years, other than the #5 overall pick, they drafted one forward who could be considered close to a difference maker, and even that might be a stretch. More of a skilled but grinding winger.

And that skilled but grinding winger became a top six forward elsewhere after leaving the organization. Would he have developed into the same player had he stayed in LA? And that one player from 2006-09 is one more than 2010-19 (as of this writing), where again, he blossomed into a top-6 forward elsewhere.

Lombardi didn't draft Kopitar, but can you give him/his group credit for developing Kopitar? Spent one more year in Sweden after being drafted, and is the son of a coach. Came to the NHL, and didn't spend a second outside of it. That's not development, he was just ready. Same with Doughty. Quick, Muzzin, different stories. Brown, without the lockout, I don't know that he ends up in Manchester for a year. Not that that was in the DL era anyway.

I don't consider Kopitar developed by Lombardi. He was a top line center the moment he set foot in the NHL.

Brown-Kopitar-Williams
Penner-Richards-Carter

That's a 13th pick, 11th pick, 28th pick, a guy that cost a 1st, another guy that cost a former 5th overall pick, and was the 24th pick himself, and another guy that cost a 1st, and a former 3rd overall pick, and was the 11th pick himself.

Gaborik-Kopitar-Brown
Pearson-Carter-Toffoli

That's a former 3rd overall pick, an 11th pick, a 13th pick, a 30th pick, a guy that cost a 1st, and a former 3rd overall pick, and was the 11th pick himself, and the best pick of the Kings since 2010.

Not a ton of mid to late round picks being developed for teams that won the Cup.

If you end up with a top line player from mid to late round picks, by either luck or incredible development, that's a luxury. That's the exception. Not that 1st round picks don't sometimes bust, but the vast majority of the real talent on your team is going to come from the top of the draft. Doesn't have to necessarily be a top 5 pick, but you're probably more likely to get that guy at 12 than 52, even if your development staff is made up of complete strangers who were blindly hired on resume alone.

Which emphasizes why the Kings are where they are.

Do the top six of Pittsburgh's cup winning teams now.

 

[DoktorJeep]

Actually there has been massive improvement in certain aspects of Kempes game. His compete level and 200 ft game have become predictably good and he’s become the leader of his line, playing with a edge. TMac now knows what he’s going to get from him every game. We can all agree that he has some untapped offensive upside but he’s not yet the finished article and we need to see a full year of him at LW.

Calling Kempe's progression massive is an exaggeration, or at best low expectations.

His best stretches have come with increased ice time and linemates closer to his own age. Both this year and three seasons ago. It’s a solid case of mismanagement up to recently.

 

[KingsFan7824]

And that skilled but grinding winger became a top six forward elsewhere after leaving the organization. Would he have developed into the same player had he stayed in LA? And that one player from 2006-09 is one more than 2010-19 (as of this writing), where again, he blossomed into a top-6 forward elsewhere.

He got more PP time in Philly. Had he been given more than next to none here, he's probably still the same player as he became. The ES goals and points are relatively similar in LA and Phi.

Not that it was developmental with Simmonds. Drafted in 2007, spent 07-08 in junior, and was a King from the start of 08-09. I wouldn't say there was too much development led by the Kings or Flyers there.

Which emphasizes why the Kings are where they are.

Do the top six of Pittsburgh's cup winning teams now.

Pittsburgh has Crosby and Malkin, who are better than anyone the Kings have been able to throw out there. Those two are going to skew a lot of things. Although Guentzel has turned into a hell of a pick. Probably not leading anyone to a Cup without C&M, but productive nonetheless.

They also had Kessel for 2 Cups. That's 3 top 5 picks in the lineup.

 

[KINGS17]

Right, I’m sure it’s easy to teach someone to be consistent. If there’s a development coach out there who’s accomplished that, please point them out to me.

And explain Iafallo too and his numbers opposed to Kempe. We saw Matt Roy go from a struggling defenseman to the most trusted player on the blueline. Much like your unrealistic expectations from mid-to-late bottom six forwards, you set unreasonable expectations from a coaching staff to turn a player into something he is not.

Consistency is primarily the responsibility of the player, and secondarily the coach. There are some players who need to have the coach ride their ass like Zorro to get some consistency in their game.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Consistency is primarily the responsibility of the player, and secondarily the coach. There are some players who need to have the coach ride their ass like Zorro to get some consistency in their game.

And given how long we've been following this team, we all know how much this team as a whole has struggled with that over the course of an 82-game schedule. Frolov went through three different coaching staffs who all demanded more out of him. For years people have argued about Kopitar and Brown's offensive numbers.

Every one of the Kings' top six forwards have also had their ups and downs in terms of offensive production. Has there been any player who has consistently produced on the Kings? That's really what separates elite talent from everyone else.

The poster suggesting consistency as being something that can be taught by a development staff doesn't have a comprehension of what the purpose of a development staff is. They coach these guys to be ready to play at this level, and have done a respectable job at that given the talent pool they've had to work with.

 

[KINGS17]

And given how long we've been following this team, we all know how much this team as a whole has struggled with that over the course of an 82-game schedule. Frolov went through three different coaching staffs who all demanded more out of him. For years people have argued about Kopitar and Brown's offensive numbers.

Every one of the Kings' top six forwards have also had their ups and downs in terms of offensive production. Has there been any player who has consistently produced on the Kings? That's really what separates elite talent from everyone else.

The poster suggesting consistency as being something that can be taught by a development staff doesn't have a comprehension of what the purpose of a development staff is. They coach these guys to be ready to play at this level, and have done a respectable job at that given the talent pool they've had to work with.

Every forward gets a little snake bit from time to time and goes through scoring droughts. The consistency part comes in where the player gradually stops going to the areas, or doing the things which produce points and goals. What is maddening is when Doughty stops shooting wrist shots from the point, and instead winds up for the slap shot everyone knows will be blocked. Then there is Kopitar driving the net and producing points almost at will reverting to skating laps around the boards in the offensive zone, or having his ass glued to the wall on the power play.

 

[BringTheReign]

Anyone think we could pry Pietrangelo out of St. Louis? Seriously. If we're set on competing again with Kopitar and Doughty, why not? Whichever of top forwards that pan out will be on ELCs for at least 3 more seasons (Vilardi excluded), and I'm willing to bet Blake will be able to lock up guys like Walker and Roy on the cheap.

To be clear, I'd say there's about a 75% chance this is a terrible idea, and would much rather stay the course. However, the 25% possibility of it working out is intriguing. Pietrangelo strikes me as the type of player who will be effective long-term a la Giordano or Chara.

 

[KopitarFAN]

Anyone think we could pry Pietrangelo out of St. Louis? Seriously. If we're set on competing again with Kopitar and Doughty, why not? Whichever of top forwards that pan out will be on ELCs for at least 3 more seasons (Vilardi excluded), and I'm willing to bet Blake will be able to lock up guys like Walker and Roy on the cheap.

To be clear, I'd say there's about a 75% chance this is a terrible idea, and would much rather stay the course. However, the 25% possibility of it working out is intriguing. Pietrangelo strikes me as the type of player who will be effective long-term a la Giordano or Chara.

If they wanted to, yes, it's feasible because the bad contracts will be gone (or have 1 year left) by the time young guys need to start being paid. Hopefully by that time things are back normal-ish + the new TV deal resulting in a cap spike.

However, it's probably more realistic that they sign a left-shot like Edmundson, or just bring back Hutton if they don't want to worry about losing a Defenseman in the expansion.

 

[Fishhead]

I think it's hard to get a read on anyone who's tried to break in the last few years. Stevens was overwhelmed and Willie was, well, I don't know what the hell he was but it was terrible. TMac took his time to evaluate, learn his players, and we started to see the payoff before the season was suspended. I'm curious to see what Kempe does going forward after slogging through two subpar coaches.

 

[No Name The Nameless]

Kempe is still a very young player and still has room to develop into something more in the future dispite being on the team for a number of years. His contract is favourable to the team so he's certainly not getting overpaid for potential. If he ends up being a 3mil third line speedy winger then that's what he is. The potential to develop is still there but I don't see why everyone wants to throw him to the wolves because he couldn't become the 2C they wanted him to be.

Is he young? He's almost 24 and has parts of 4 years of nhl experience. He's right in the middle of his prime.

I'm pretty sure we know what we are getting with Kempe and that's okay with me. Not every player has to be a home run. Sometimes you have to string together a couple of hits to score a run.

 

[KINGS17]

Is he young? He's almost 24 and has parts of 4 years of nhl experience. He's right in the middle of his prime.

I'm pretty sure we know what we are getting with Kempe and that's okay with me. Not every player has to be a home run. Sometimes you have to string together a couple of hits to score a run.

Probably true. By the time Kempe is 28 or 29, he may not have much value.