OT: 2018 Football Thread: Camp is (almost) here!!!!!

[Fvital92]

Gettlemen will not even be around to see any of this. He was clearly bought in by Giants ownership to get the Giants back to Super Bowl contention in the next 3 seasons.


Hence my post that the Giants taking an RB at two was an incredibly short sighted move (with no firm future QB in place) which started this whole Eli discussion.

And I don't doubt that Barkley isn't going to ball the **** out for the Giants. But so did AP for the Vikings and Tomlinson for San Diego but that still was not enough to get their teams to a Super Bowl.

This should be more spread out. Gettleman, I think, is 65 years old, that definetely was in his mind when he took Barkley, he needs to make moves that impact the team now.

Rivers didn't win with Tomlison, Gates at their prime, with some shitty performances at the playoffs by the way, and this guy is for sure better than Eli through their careers. Just in his dreams.

 

[JT Kreider]

This should be more spread out. Gettleman, I think, is 65 years old, that definetely was in his mind when he took Barkley, he needs to make moves that impact the team now.

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[Synergy27]

Ben Roethlisberger is a first ballot HOFer.

If Rivers can win a title, he's a first ballot HOFer.

Eli Manning will be a HOFer, I think, but he's not at all a sure-fire first ballot guy.

Meh. If this happens, you're basically saying that that class is equivalent to the 1983 class. Is it really?

 

[Fvital92]

Meh. If this happens, you're basically saying that that class is equivalent to the 1983 class. Is it really?

Kurt Warner set the bar pretty low to enter the Hall of Fame.

 

[IronBloodedLion]

Gettlemen will not even be around to see any of this. He was clearly bought in by Giants ownership to get the Giants back to Super Bowl contention in the next 3 seasons.


Hence my post that the Giants taking an RB at two was an incredibly short sighted move (with no firm future QB in place) which started this whole Eli discussion.

And I don't doubt that Barkley isn't going to ball the **** out for the Giants. But so did AP for the Vikings and Tomlinson for San Diego but that still was not enough to get their teams to a Super Bowl.

I totally agree with you, but I think the organization thinks they can squeeze another 3 years out of Eli though. I completely disagree with that sentiment btw.

There were reports that the organization was very afraid of being in "Quarterback hell," and unless Webb or Lauletta pan out, they're heading right for it.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Meh. If this happens, you're basically saying that that class is equivalent to the 1983 class. Is it really?

You don't think Rivers is an easy first ballot if he wins a Lombardi? I think that's the only thing holding him back. Eli could get in on the first ballot, but is much more likely a guy who gets in during a weak class (if he and Ben retire at the same time, Ben gets in and he doesn't, IMO).

The 2004 class is the best overall class since 1983, anyway.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I think Eli is hard to judge purely in stats. He may not be the greatest statistical QB, but he's played incredible in the playoffs and a proven winner. That being said, he's clearly been in decline, and if this were any other franchise I think they would've selected Sam Darnold last week.

Now if they win a Super Bowl during his last few years, then this is all a moot point. If Darnold turns into a superstar, and Eli is done in a year, and neither Webb or Lauletta become starters and the Giants wind up in QB hell, we'll be talking about this draft for the next decade at least.

Even if Barkley is as good as we all think he's going to be, this is still a gamble by Gettleman.

Right, Eli has some really great intangibles. Which is exactly what I've said this entire time. He's tough as a MFer and was able to really go on some runs. Hence the "he's more Chris Drury than Mark Messier" comment.

However, his clutchness has been gone for years. He was a proven winner at one point, but that hasn't been true in half a decade.

Eli had a great peak but was, overall, a mediocre quarterback. How can a guy who has never been an All Pro really be considered more than that? Hell, Rivers has two been on All Pro (one first, one second) teams.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

You simply ignore the schemes that each QB played. Gilbride's offense is a different animal than a West Coast offense, for example.
Rothlisberger and River had way better teams in their career and did less than Eli Manning. People thought that Peyton Manning choked against Tom Brady, Rothlisberger never won against the Patriots in a postseason game, this is horrible with the talent they have had in his career, funny thing nobody kills him for that like they killed Manning before his superbowl.

I'm not ignoring jack shit. I'm evaluating the guy over 14 f***ing years. Of which I have watched every single snap in every single game. Many games more than once and some games upwards of four or five times (I've watched both Super Bowl wins probably five times in full each).

The fact that you continue to think that folks are unable to evaluate Manning in a different offense is really comical. It's so condescending to think that we are unable to do so. Frankly, I'd argue it shows a lack of understanding on your end.

We have 14 years to evaluate Manning on. No one is evaluating him solely on the McAdoo years. That you can't separate the two speaks to you. Not us.

 

[Fvital92]

I'm not ignoring jack ****. I'm evaluating the guy over 14 ****ing years. Of which I have watched every single snap in every single game. Many games more than once and some games upwards of four or five times (I've watched both Super Bowl wins probably five times in full each).

The fact that you continue to think that folks are unable to evaluate Manning in a different offense is really comical. It's so condescending to think that we are unable to do so. Frankly, I'd argue it shows a lack of understanding on your end.

We have 14 years to evaluate Manning on. No one is evaluating him solely on the McAdoo years. That you can't separate the two speaks to you. Not us.

You are using his career completion percentage to compare him with Rivers and Roethlisberger, he played 10 years with Gilbride's offense, who has low percentage completion because it's based in throwing down the field with a bunch of options for the QB and the WRs, with guys that never played in a complex offense like Eli did ( you can argue that offense is bad).
McAdoo years were the easier ones, with his kid version of the West Coast offense, in fact, you can see that Eli's completion percentage went up considerably in McAdoo's offense and his interceptions went down. Put him in McAdoo's offense for his whole career and you would see his stats inflate and probably no superbowl win for us.

If you tell me why Big Ben, or Rivers, is better, without showing stats with no context, would help the enlight me.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

You are using his career completion percentage to compare him with Rivers and Roethlisberger, he played 10 years with Gilbride's offense, who has low percentage completion because it's based in throwing down the field with a bunch of options for the QB and the WRs, with guys that never played in a complex offense like Eli did ( you can argue that offense is bad).
McAdoo years were the easier ones, with his kid version of the West Coast offense, in fact, you can see that Eli's completion percentage went up considerably in McAdoo's offense and his interceptions went down. Put him in McAdoo's offense for his whole career and you would see his stats inflate and probably no superbowl win for us.

If you tell me why Big Ben, or Rivers, is better, without showing stats with no context, would help the enlight me.

Uh, I'm actually using his entire slate of career stats. Or did you somehow miss me asking multiple people what metrics would somehow put Eli above either of these guys? You were one of the dudes who couldn't answer, FYI.

His entire slate of stats is a clear step below both of them. I'm sorry that you somehow disagree with this, but these are facts. That you want to try and whitewash the numbers is absurd, though.

Eli Manning is an average player over the course of his career. He was terrible early on. He had an excellent peak. His peak dropped off very quickly. Overall, he's quite average.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I mean, it's comical to say that Manning has had a better career or is a better player than Ben. Not only was Ben's peak as good or better, but he's put up better numbers much more consistently over his entire career. And Ben wasn't even some ultra elite talent. He was just a very good QB who was consistently very good.

There's a reason that Roethlisberger's Approximate Player Value is on a completely different tier than Manning's (Rivers is actually above Roethlisberger in this metric). Almost every single individual statistic for both Rivers and Ben are above (and sometimes significantly) Manning's. These guys had better individual careers without a doubt (and Roethlisberger had a better overall career taking into account his higher individual achievements along with his equal [better if you count playoff appearances in general] team achievements)

If you want to make the argument that Rivers doesn't have the team hardware to put him above Manning in your eyes, that's a legitimate thing to bring up. Since, as I've said countless times, Manning has that "it" factor to go along with his toughness and ability to rise up (which, as also said multiple times, has unfortunately left him over the last five years).

 

[Fvital92]

Uh, I'm actually using his entire slate of career stats. Or did you somehow miss me asking multiple people what metrics would somehow put Eli above either of these guys? You were one of the dudes who couldn't answer, FYI.

His entire slate of stats is a clear step below both of them. I'm sorry that you somehow disagree with this, but these are facts. That you want to try and whitewash the numbers is absurd, though.

Eli Manning is an average player over the course of his career. He was terrible early on. He had an excellent peak. His peak dropped off very quickly. Overall, he's quite average.

10 years of his career he played on a system that actually hurts his stats. You just ignoring a fact. It's a lesser version of comparing the stats of QBs from different eras. If you don't balance the stats with other aspects (system, personnel) they mean absolute nothing.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I see the overrating of Eli continues.

It's unreal, man. The outright deification of the guy and the complete ignoring of his actual play and career is astounding. I haven't seen anything like this in a while.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

10 years of his career he played on a system that actually hurts his stats. You just ignoring a fact. It's a lesser version of comparing the stats of QBs from different eras. If you don't balance the stats with other aspects (system, personnel) they mean absolute nothing.

Lol, are you saying that Gilbride actually hurt his stats? Gilbride was a big play offensive guy when the run game wasn't working. Yet Manning never once lead the league in touchdowns once we became more of a pass-first team around 2009 or so. Or yards. Or completions. Or QBR. Or quarterback rating.

But he lead the league in interceptions a few times.

Are you somehow saying that the All Pro guys just were too f***ing stupid to evaluate Manning, too? You're the only guy who could evaluate him in Gilbride's offense? No one can possibly evaluate a player like Manning because he hasn't had some special system crafted around him (nevermind the fact that Gilbride was kept around for years because of how well he allegedly worked with Eli, so this complete revision of history is making me chuckle quite a bit) and every single coach he's ever had has been wrong about everything?

The length you are going to ignore any and all statistical evidence has reached the Alternative Facts zone.

 

[IronBloodedLion]

Uh, I'm actually using his entire slate of career stats. Or did you somehow miss me asking multiple people what metrics would somehow put Eli above either of these guys? You were one of the dudes who couldn't answer, FYI.

His entire slate of stats is a clear step below both of them. I'm sorry that you somehow disagree with this, but these are facts. That you want to try and whitewash the numbers is absurd, though.

Eli Manning is an average player over the course of his career. He was terrible early on. He had an excellent peak. His peak dropped off very quickly. Overall, he's quite average.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying, but I think you're really underrating Eli.

He's going to finish his career Top 10 in all time yards and Passing Touchdowns, plus his 2 Super Bowls and Super Bowl MVP's. There are a lot of teams that would've taken Eli's "mediocrity."

 

[Fvital92]

Lol, are you saying that Gilbride actually hurt his stats? Gilbride was a big play offensive guy when the run game wasn't working. Yet Manning never once lead the league in touchdowns. Or yards. Or completions. Or QBR. Or quarterback rating.

But he lead the league in interceptions a few times.

Are you somehow saying that the All Pro guys just were too ****ing stupid to evaluate Manning, too? You're the only guy who could evaluate him in Gilbride's offense? No one can possibly evaluate a player like Manning because he hasn't had some special system crafted around him (nevermind the fact that Gilbride was kept around for years because of how well he allegedly worked with Eli, so this complete revision of history is making me chuckle quite a bit) and every single coach he's ever had has been wrong about everything?

The length you are going to ignore any and all statistical evidence has reached the Alternative Facts zone.

Yes they did, his system relied on the WRs and QBs being on the same page, many of Eli's interceptions that you went "WTF is he doing?" were the receiver's fault. Phil Simms, Martellus Bennet. and many more that played are on record saying so.
Gilbride's offense didn't inflate stats but brought team results, which is what matter in the end. You' re using individual stats that are influenced by scheme to evaluate a player solely on that, which is simply wrong.
Who are these all pro guys that you are refering to? If they are the same that think that the Giant's oline was average or slightly better than average last year then I'm saying they are stupid.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

. . . do you not know what an All Pro is?

 

[Hunter Gathers]

I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying, but I think you're really underrating Eli.

He's going to finish his career Top 10 in all time yards and Passing Touchdowns, plus his 2 Super Bowls and Super Bowl MVP's. There are a lot of teams that would've taken Eli's "mediocrity."

You don’t see me saying I’d trade him for Rivers. I have no clue if Rivers could win here when Eli did. But that’s why football is a team game and why I am not sure if Rivers deserves to be knocked for a team accomplishment (likewise with Hank not being knocked for a lack of a Cup).

As a 14-year starter in a pass-first league for over half of it, it’s not surprising to see where an Ironman like Eli will end up in those traditional areas. Which, for the 47th time, is something be clearly gets credit for.

 

[Fvital92]

. . . do you not know what an All Pro is?

So you are using the opinion of players like Janoris Jenkins, Landon Collins that only say shit whenever they open their mouth, amazing players but stupids as hell...
You know that being an all pro just means that they are good at their job, right?

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Let’s be clear, here. Overrating Eli like this does him no service. Since it’s so damn easy to refute, all it does is give tons of ammunition for those who actually want to knock the guy. Why can’t we just accept that the guy was a good starter with incredible toughness and longevity who went on a couple of runs? It’s factually accurate. It doesn’t needlessly puff him up with nonsensical hyperbole.

You talk about Eli as one would Hank. Hank is a top 8-12 or so player at his position all time. Eli is, decidedly, not.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

So you are using the opinion of players like Janoris Jenkins, Landon Collins that only say **** whenever they open their mouth, amazing players but stupids as hell...
You know that being an all pro just means that they are good at their job, right?

Lol. What? You should look up what the All Pro team is.

I wasn’t aware Jenkins was a voting member.

 

[Fvital92]

Lol. What? You should look up what the All Pro team is.

I wasn’t aware Jenkins was a voting member.

So an all pro is actually a voting member for you? LOL.
Let me introduce you to the all pro team.
2017 All-Pro Team - Wikipedia

Collins and Jenkins were all pros in 2016.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

So an all pro is actually a voting member for you? LOL.
Let me introduce you to the all pro team.
2017 All-Pro Team - Wikipedia

Collins and Jenkins were all pros in 2016.

Wait, you’re saying that Landon Collins and Jenkins were not All Pro caliber players in 2016? Please tell me you aren’t serious. Especially with Collins.

The All Pro teams are very prestigious and tracked by the NFL. How have you not heard of this?

 

[Fvital92]

Wait, you’re saying that Landon Collins and Jenkins were not All Pro caliber players in 2016? Please tell me you aren’t serious. Especially with Collins.

The All Pro teams are very prestigious and tracked by the NFL. How have you not heard of this?

No, I said that they were all pros but that doesn't mean shit regarding their opinions about football.
Then I realized that an all pro guy is actually a voting member and not a player that is/was an all pro, which menas that you think journalists know more about Xs and Os than ex players and players who played Gilbride's system, which continues to be mindblowing for me.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

No, I said that they were all pros but that doesn't mean **** regarding their opinions about football.
Then I realized that an all pro guy is actually a voting member and not a player that is/was an all pro, which menas that you think journalists know more about Xs and Os than ex players and player who played Gilbride's system, which continues to be mindblowing for me.

That you don’t understand the importance of an All Pro award is kind of incredible. That you don’t understand how NFL awards are given out is equally incredible.

Pray tell, who do you think decides the AP NFL MVP? Who decides the DPOY? Who votes on the HOF?