2018 Draft Thoughts/Summary/Poster Picks

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i'd honestly be pissed if Dubas just followed public draft lists. I want him to get the players he wants, not the players that the general public can figure out are good by doing a few minutes of research. And yes, I'm including myself in that. I know I don't know **** about 99.99% of prospects in the draft, even though I looked into it a couple of days in advance. Dubas has incredibly in depth data acquired by a huge well-funded staff over the course of several months. I know it's fun to share your own opinion, but come on. He got the players he wanted, and that should be good enough for us

I feel where you're coming from.


Pretty funny watching people debate so passionate over players they scouted on google and youtube. Passionate to the point they can't admire the benefits of a pick while stating they prefer someone else. That makes sense.

What doesn't make sense is declaring the pick sucks and will do nothing to help the team and downright disliking the player by virtue of it not being the player you wanted. Didn't know google and youtube was enough to get scout certified.


All the names being thrown around by the public will be irrelevant by next year. 95% of the names thrown around passionately last season are already busts.
 
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I expect most of our Ontario scouts to be replaced or already gone. Ontario was pretty much covered by Hunter, Hofford, and Tony Martino yet we drafted primarily from Ontario. I would be surprised if Hofford and Martino still have jobs in September with the Maple Leafs, as they are both solidly Hunter guys.

If Dubas didn't trust or think highly of the Ontario guys, it seems to be a fair belief he just went on his own instinct or beliefs. I would have thought he would have leaned more on his Euro or Western Canada guys who are likely to stay due to this.

I'd expect an OHL purge of Hofford and Martino it's just a question of how many European and Western scouts were Hunter guys and may want or be pushed to leave

It looks like a very Dubas draft to me, about the only guy I can't explain by either the Soo, Western or Europe scouting is the little Russian in the 3rd

1st (soo)
2nd (camp invite)
3rd can't see a connection (maybe Russia?)
3rd (Western)
4th (soo)
5th (Western)
6th (Sweden
7th (QMJL)
7th (Russia)
 
Namestinkov was a Hunter loyalist. They are very close. Not a shock at all he is gone. He was one of the names I mentioned when Hunter left in May (alongside Paliafito and Hofford) as key guys in Amateur scouting who are absolutely Hunter guys.

Martino likely joins. Maybe Kisil out of the OHL as well, but I think he's a Paliafito loyalist. Although I think Paliafito could be coaxed into staying. He had a pretty cushy role here and will still keep it. Maybe you could add Hofford's role into his if he wants it and Hofford leaves, or maybe could even get the Director of Scouting (although I am still giving it to Darryl Plandowski if it was my decision). He was the Leafs' opener for getting all of those high profiled European guys (Rosen, Borgman, Zaitsev, Ozhiganov and Soshnikov) and was huge in getting all of them.

But really, is it a huge deal if the other guys leave? None of these drafts have been overly inspiring? A lot of our OHL picks never even got off of the ground. The shake up may be good. Our drafting has gone really stale since 2015 outside of hitting on Sweden and our really early picks. Getting some guys more in tuned with what Dubas wants may help out a lot. This draft, as much as I do criticize some of the second day picks, still does look better than the 2016 and 2017 day 2's and Dubas had to throw it together in a few weeks after being named GM and seeing his Director of Scouting abruptively leave the team. It could have been a much larger disaster than something a lot of people already expected to happen, and something the Leafs likely planned on happening.
 
Martino likely joins. Maybe Kisil out of the OHL as well, but I think he's a Paliafito loyalist. Although I think Paliafito could be coaxed into staying. He had a pretty cushy role here and will still keep it. Maybe you could add Hofford's role into his if he wants it and Hofford leaves, or maybe could even get the Director of Scouting (although I am still giving it to Darryl Plandowski if it was my decision). He was the Leafs' opener for getting all of those high profiled European guys (Rosen, Borgman, Zaitsev, Ozhiganov and Soshnikov) and was huge in getting all of them.

But really, is it a huge deal if the other guys leave? None of these drafts have been overly inspiring? A lot of our OHL picks never even got off of the ground. The shake up may be good. Our drafting has gone really stale since 2015 outside of hitting on Sweden and our really early picks. Getting some guys more in tuned with what Dubas wants may help out a lot. This draft, as much as I do criticize some of the second day picks, still does look better than the 2016 and 2017 day 2's and Dubas had to throw it together in a few weeks after being named GM and seeing his Director of Scouting abruptively leave the team. It could have been a much larger disaster than something a lot of people already expected to happen, and something the Leafs likely planned on happening.
2017 fine. I think Day 2 of 2016 was way better. I prefer Woll and Grundstrom significantly over anyone we got on Saturday.

It all depends on the type of people we replace them with. I don't think Hofford is a big loss (Mark is huge though). I'm fully expecting Wes Clark in a senior scouting role, and I'm not too excited about it.

I'd also say if you can hit on 2 out of 5 second rounders (which we appear to have done, but we have to wait on Grundstrom to confirm it) you are doing pretty well. I really don't think anything is that inspiring about 2015 past the 2nd round, to be honest, I don't think we will get another NHLer out of that draft.
 
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I'd expect an OHL purge of Hofford and Martino it's just a question of how many European and Western scouts were Hunter guys and may want or be pushed to leave

It looks like a very Dubas draft to me, about the only guy I can't explain by either the Soo, Western or Europe scouting is the little Russian in the 3rd

1st (soo)
2nd (camp invite)
3rd can't see a connection (maybe Russia?)
3rd (Western)
4th (soo)
5th (Western)
6th (Sweden
7th (QMJL)
7th (Russia)

Honestly, I can see the 1st being as much of a Sweden pick as a Soo pick. I think Bergman was involved with it a lot too, and I think there was a good chance he would have been selected there even if he put up the same type of season on a different team. He played in a good U20 program as a 17 year old. You do not think they were already looking at him then while they were looking at guys like Liljegren? He just fits Dubas' profile so well, and so happened to be playing for SSM (which may have given him some additional information but I doubt impacted the pick a whole lot). By many accounts, he was the BPA, or at least one of the few BPA's, left available. He was a dropper, not a reach. Pure correlation over causation going on by some people.

Der-Agunchitsev was probably just seen in the OHL. I mean these scouts do go other places besides the places they are comfortable with (aka London and SSM). At least I hope they do... Probably saw him a lot and liked him. Durzi and Hollowell were a mix of familiarity through camp and in the case of Hollowell, SSM. They do fit Dubas' profile at least, but maybe a little bit of bias creeped in there and I am not a huge fan of that.

Kral was a Speltz pick. He's more heavily rooted in Spokane than Dubas is in SSM. That tells you something. It may have been a bias pick, but at least it was a damn good one. Stotts may have been a Malarchuk pick. I think he handles BC and Alberta (and operates out of Calgary) but apparently that was a consensus pick between all of the Western guys (Derkatch would have first seen him in Saskatchewan where he scouts more when Stotts was on Swift Current).

Holmberg is clearly the Bergman/Nordmark pick of the draft and Kizimov the Russian pick as you said. Bouthillier isn't connected with anyone so clearly one of Robidas, Charbonneau or Paiement thought he was worth going for after outshining Fitzpatrick in the Q playoffs. Maybe because Robidas and Chabonneau are familiar with Fitzpatrick from Sherbrooke they knew how good Bouthillier would have had to be in order to beat him.
 
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2017 fine. I think Day 2 of 2016 was way better. I prefer Woll and Grundstrom significantly over anyone we got on Saturday.

It all depends on the type of people we replace them with. I don't think Hofford is a big loss (Mark is huge though). I'm fully expecting Wes Clark in a senior scouting role, and I'm not too excited about it.

I'd also say if you can hit on 2 out of 5 second rounders (which we appear to have done, but we have to wait on Grundstrom to confirm it) you are doing pretty well. I really don't think anything is that inspiring about 2015 past the 2nd round, to be honest, I don't think we will get another NHLer out of that draft.

I guess we did do well with Grundstrom and Woll, but Korshkov really dampens it for me. Plus seeing Middleton, Mattinen, and Walker not amount to anything pretty much immediately + Bobylev and Greenway going into limbo as well. Pretty disheartening to see a 3rd, 4th, 5th and two 6ths in a draft not even get close to off the ground while seeing guys like Bratt already make it to the NHL or doing far better. Grundstrom and Woll save it from being a total disaster, but I think in this draft we could easily see most of the guys at least make the Marlies (Durzi, SDA, Stotts, Hollowell, Kral and maybe Holmberg on top of Sandin).
 
I guess we did do well with Grundstrom and Woll, but Korshkov really dampens it for me. Plus seeing Middleton, Mattinen, and Walker not amount to anything pretty much immediately + Bobylev and Greenway going into limbo as well. Pretty disheartening to see a 3rd, 4th, 5th and two 6ths in a draft not even get close to off the ground while seeing guys like Bratt already make it to the NHL or doing far better. Grundstrom and Woll save it from being a total disaster, but I think in this draft we could easily see most of the guys at least make the Marlies (Durzi, SDA, Stotts, Hollowell, Kral and maybe Holmberg on top of Sandin).
Teams strike lightning occasionally, I don't think its fair to any organization to hold the Bratt as a standard. I mean, the Devils drafted Bastian in the 2nd who already looks like a write-off. Korshkov still could be an NHLer. I wanted Boris Katchouk at the time, and I think he'll be a great complimentary winger at the NHL level. Obviously, DeBrincat or Girard appear to be the best picks in hindsight.

In my opinion, I'd much rather have a team that is acing the top of its draft, than one that is depending on home-runs from the back-half of the draft. We'll see how this draft plays out. Durzi has to be an effective AHL player this year to be worthy of the pick used on him, so that pick will be quite easy to judge in the near future.
 
Yea I like this day 2 more than the last 2. Grundstrom is probably our best pick on those days, but players like SDA, Kral, Stotts, and Durzi are all a lot more intriguing than players like Kara, Greenway, Middleton, Bobylev, etc were at the time. Korshkov still has potential but this will be a big year for him, and he needs to stay healthy. Holmberg is intriguing because it's obviously a Bergman pick and we traded up for him. Not an amazing draft but I think it looks pretty good. All the draft grades I've seen from us have been B+, B or B-, and I'd give it a B at first glance so. I really like Sandin though (had him 3/4 of who I wanted at 25) because I value very smart two way dman high, that's why I loved Dermott when we drafted him.
 
2017 fine. I think Day 2 of 2016 was way better. I prefer Woll and Grundstrom significantly over anyone we got on Saturday.

It all depends on the type of people we replace them with. I don't think Hofford is a big loss (Mark is huge though). I'm fully expecting Wes Clark in a senior scouting role, and I'm not too excited about it.

I'd also say if you can hit on 2 out of 5 second rounders (which we appear to have done, but we have to wait on Grundstrom to confirm it) you are doing pretty well. I really don't think anything is that inspiring about 2015 past the 2nd round, to be honest, I don't think we will get another NHLer out of that draft.

About the only guys in the 2015, 2016, 2017 drafts I have any confidence of making it outside of the 1st round are Grundstrom Korshkov and Dermott

I'd give Brooks Bracco Woll outside shots with a bolter like Gordeev (maybe)

It's not awful but I'd have hoped to have a few guys track a little better in the later rounds

Honestly, I can see the 1st being as much of a Sweden pick as a Soo pick. I think Bergman was involved with it a lot too, and I think there was a good chance he would have been selected there even if he put up the same type of season on a different team. He played in a good U20 program as a 17 year old. You do not think they were already looking at him then while they were looking at guys like Liljegren? He just fits Dubas' profile so well, and so happened to be playing for SSM (which may have given him some additional information but I doubt impacted the pick a whole lot). By many accounts, he was the BPA, or at least one of the few BPA's, left available. He was a dropper, not a reach. Pure correlation over causation going on by some people.

Der-Agunchitsev was probably just seen in the OHL. I mean these scouts do go other places besides the places they are comfortable with (aka London and SSM). At least I hope they do... Probably saw him a lot and liked him. Durzi and Hollowell were a mix of familiarity through camp and in the case of Hollowell, SSM. They do fit Dubas' profile at least, but maybe a little bit of bias creeped in there and I am not a huge fan of that.

Kral was a Speltz pick. He's more heavily rooted in Spokane than Dubas is in SSM. That tells you something. It may have been a bias pick, but at least it was a damn good one. Stotts may have been a Malarchuk pick. I think he handles BC and Alberta (and operates out of Calgary) but apparently that was a consensus pick between all of the Western guys (Derkatch would have first seen him in Saskatchewan where he scouts more when Stotts was on Swift Current).

Holmberg is clearly the Bergman/Nordmark pick of the draft and Kizimov the Russian pick as you said. Bouthillier isn't connected with anyone so clearly one of Robidas, Charbonneau or Paiement thought he was worth going for after outshining Fitzpatrick in the Q playoffs. Maybe because Robidas and Chabonneau are familiar with Fitzpatrick from Sherbrooke they knew how good Bouthillier would have had to be in order to beat him.

Sandin may have been a Soo Euro conglomeration it does sound like his Soo connection helped in the decision making process

We picked 4 OHL guys, two were out of the Soo (one of which was a gigantic reach) another one we had at rookie camp and the Russian

It looks pretty clear that Dubas was involved in the OHL side of things, I don't think the Euro's or Western scouts are as tight with Hunter or as easy for him to scout so he relied on them more

He was involved, it's not really much of a surprise
 
I'd be fine with that if Dubas had a long track record in scouting like Hunter did, but he's more of a stats guy, and hasn't had as much experience at his age scouting players. I'd expect him to lean on more experienced guys and augment their info with his, rather than the other way around. I doubt he's seen the prospects this year as much as some of the guys on his staff.

Dubas started scouting for the Soo when he was 17 years old. He's also much more than a stats guy.

You should read this article to learn more about Dubas

Built in the Soo: The Kyle Dubas story
 
This is what I was looking for. Stewart also let go it seems, but that may have happened earlier.

Albelin, Lemaire and Caron were all Lou's friends. I fully expected that since they had no ties to the organization anymore and expect all of them to go to the Islanders. Namestnikov was a recent addition so maybe he was attached to Hunter or Lou. Ladygin is an interesting one since he's been here for like 15 years now. I guess Dubas was not happy with the Russian scouting, even though they did pick up some good gems over the years (at least on the pro side of things; amateur is a little bit more questionable).

I mean most of the Russian guys were selected in the late rounds, but Korshkov was questionable and so was Kara. The Leafs have not draft many Russians since Ladygin has been here and the only one who turned into anything (at least so far) was Kulemin in the 2nd round. I can see them being at the end of their rope with him after saving him from the initial purge. Namestnikov is a little bit more weird though because he seems to be more successful and responsible for the recent picks and signings, and even if they were iffy, it seems odd to axe him so soon. Especially since Zaitsev and Soshnikov have already turned out well in a short period of time.

Does this really look bad on Dubas, or is it just trying to improve the scouting staff that has kind of gone stale or no longer has ties to the organization? I expect a lot more cuts to be made. A lot of these guys are old regime and maybe are not the right fit for the direction Dubas is going, which I believe is the right direction (high emphasis on hockey IQ).

Will that be the last of Morrison?
 
Dubas started scouting for the Soo when he was 17 years old. He's also much more than a stats guy.

You should read this article to learn more about Dubas

Built in the Soo: The Kyle Dubas story

I didn't say he's only a stats guy, I said he's more of a stats guy. It's nice that he scouted when he was 17 but given that he's only 32 that would put his years of experience probably well below many of the guys he's currently in charge of.

(Edit) Just finished reading it. It doesn't really say a lot about his scouting other than a couple of anecdotes. It was mostly about player types that were overvalued vs undervalued.

The article is more focused on his team building, his philosophy, and his use of stats in evaluation, which are his primary strengths.

Looking at his history of picks with the Soo, his best pick was Nurse (though his final draft in 2014 brought in Katchouck and Timmins who I liked quite a bit in their draft years). It's not a long track record and about average overall in terms of NHL talent.

It's like the Oakland A's. Billy Beane was great at putting a team together, but his draft decisions during the Moneyball era were pretty questionable. Most of the team's success came due to traditionally scout-liked players in Tejada, Chavez, Zito, Hernandez, and Mulder was a top pick.

Now that that old pipeline of talent has dried up the A's have been pretty much irrelevant for the last few years, as other team's employ both scouting and stats-based philosophies and they've been forced to adapt.

One thing I found strange was his stated emphasis on character, but he ended up drafting McCann and DeAngelo, and was reportedly in on Merkely in this draft. Not sure how to interpret that.
 
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And how many of the small players that we drafted outside of MM and Nypander have panned out ?

And my point wasn't that I don't want to draft small players but that there's only so many you can dress .

None (I guess Dermott, depending if you think hes small or not), which begs the question why people were bemoaning the loss of Hunter.
 
And how many of the small players that we drafted outside of MM and Nypander have panned out ?

And my point wasn't that I don't want to draft small players but that there's only so many you can dress .

thats not how development works, and you know that. Bracco and Timashov are slowly building their way up the marlies lineup. they were late 2nd and a 5th round pick. took connor brown 4 years post draft to make the leafs full time so even if they moved as fast as Brown they still wouldnt be in the lineup until next season. Nylander and Marner are elite talents taken in the top 10 and 5 respectively
 
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My thoughts on the draft.

1) I spent very little time watching almost any of the draft prospects who were drafted by any team this year, so I can't argue that one player should have taken over another, and I have very little faith that 99.9% of those on these boards who claim to have that kind of knowledge when it comes to most of the players available this draft are doing any more than talking out their butts. I have a little more faith in scouting agencies, although I feel that most of them just rank players according to the other rankings while shuffling a couple players up and down. However, even if those agencies are more rigorous than that they are still just making general pronouncements and are obviously not in line with the methodology that any specific team is going to use. So, if Dubas picked player X, while player Y is still on the board, I don't care because it is not like Dubas didn't know about player Y, it is because Dubas and the people working for him decided that X was a better fit for the Leafs organization than player Y for whatever reasons. That doesn't mean that Dubas can't be wrong, but the reality is that he has sold Shanahan on his vision (and, as a Dubas supporter I look forward to seeing where that goes - which to me means no half measures).

2) The whole Dubas is all hung up on SSM and has tunnel vision towards players from there. I disagree. The Leafs are set on a certain brand of hockey. SSM plays a similar way. When Dubas looks at players who are playing there he gets to see that they are players who are a good fit, and thriving in, a system similar to the what the Leafs have (it is essentially bonus development time both pre-draft and post-draft if the players return to SSM) His connections with SSM allow him to know more about specific players - the kind of person the player is, more about their work ethic, more about how they handle stress etc than other teams likely know, and than he would know about players from other teams. Knowledge is power. If Dubas can look at 5 potential candidates who are pretty even for a specific draft position, but because one of those players played in SSM he also knows that they player would be a fit for the Leafs style, and on a personal level is the kind of player that the Leafs wants, he would be a fool not to take that player. The whole purpose of interviews at the combine is to try to gain the types of knowledge that you don't see from the stands. That is why they are valuable. If, due to connections, you already know much more than an interview could tell you, you are way ahead.

3) Trading down was a great move. Dubas got a player who he felt was a valuable as any player he would have got with the initial pick (and probably the exact same player he would have picked) and on top of that he got another 3rd rounder. It boggles the mind that people complain about that.

4) Dubas burning a 2nd round pick on a player they could've signed last season is not on him. If anything it shows how incompetent those who preceded him were. Hunter could have easily drafted him with a 6th or 7th round pick, but instead wasted picks on players who not only seem inferior today, but appear to have been inferior a year ago. Dubas couldn't have signed him last summer, but Lou could have. I would be interested in seeing who pushed for him to be at the development camp last year.

5) Small players. So what? I was supportive of the drafting of the giants last year, only because I was hoping that one of those giants drafted in 2016 or 2017 might turn into a Josh Manson type player. I still think that Josh Manson is astronomically valuable, but have come to terms that while D like Spurgeon and Krug might be rare - there is only Josh Manson. So the odds are far worse trying for him.

6) The SDA is not only small but he can't score complaint. He scored 3 times as many goals as Brooks during his D year (and is much younger).

7) Did Dubas find value in his picks? How the hell could anyone know at this point? If it is was known, or obvious, that the players Dubas picked had more value they would have been picked earlier. Five - ten years down the road we will know. I would assume that Dubas and Shanahan feel that the additional information they have on these prospects tilts the ice in their favour. I would assume that the Leafs have looked at the flaws of prospects who were available, and determined which flaws the Leafs can correct or reduce. I would assume that the Leafs have looked at the prospects who were available and determined which ones have the attributes that the Leafs value highly, but which other teams perhaps don't value as much when making picks (such as hockey IQ) and therefore were the best fit for the Leafs going forward.

It is a very inexact science, but I certainly trust the organization to do a better job of it than hfboard posters. Of course, I agree with the direction Dubas appears to be taking the team (and has taken his previous teams), so if you don't agree with that direction then your position should be the opposite. Only time will tell.

For what it is worth: Points per game during their D+1 year, among D drafted by the Leafs in the last 5 years who played in the CHL:

Durzi 1.23
Nielsen 0.99
Hollowell 0.89
Sandin 0.88 (note - D year - and young for his draft class)
Dermott 0.84
Kral 0.65
Rasanen 0.54
Valiyev 0.51
Gordeev 0.37
Desrocher 0.35
Middleton 0.28
Mattinen 0.12


We have seen what Dermott can do. Nielsen has run into a wall with his skating and I don't see a future for him with the organization, but can likely be traded as part of a package for an asset. I don't see the bottom 4 ever returning anything. Durzi, Hollowell, Sandin and Kral look beyond damn good in comparison unless what you value is size. I understand people thinking that size is really valuable. That is my bias too, and I work to overcome it. None of the giants took a real step forward during their D+1.

Hunter made some horrendous D picks. Scoring isnt everything for a dman, but there is a stat someone showed that indicated even the most defensive dmen in the NHL scored decently in jnr. Those f***ing giant plugs arent close to scoring decently.

Have to see how dubas d prospects progress could end up just as shit, but it is nice they are starting from a base of some sembelence of offensive skill
 
We'll have a better idea of the invites. We know about Sokolov already.

Also, I believe the Leafs will not be doing scrimmages this season. It will mostly be off-ice meetings and what not. So it will be a bit of a boring "rookie camp".

 
thats not how development works, and you know that. Bracco and Timashov are slowly building their way up the marlies lineup. they were late 2nd and a 5th round pick. took connor brown 4 years post draft to make the leafs full time so even if they moved as fast as Brown they still wouldnt be in the lineup until next season. Nylander and Marner are elite talents taken in the top 10 and 5 respectively
i agree and i'll add that development works the same way for big players as it does for the smaller ones so i don't understand why people are writing off our last 2 drafts so quickly
 
Here is the thing about draft in general that i think many fans look at: OHL, WHL and QMJHL are imo the 3 most scouted leagues in the world for the NHL draft, so when we pick someone from these leagues it feels there is little chance we can find a diamond here because they have all been watched hundred times by hundred different scouts, while if a player is picked from some european league (junior or 2nd tier) it gives fans more hope that maybe the player wasn't as ascouted and there is a bigger chance he could end up being a gem.
 
I think some posters here think all of this years picks will make the bigs because no really "big" guys were chosen :laugh:
 
i agree and i'll add that development works the same way for big players as it does for the smaller ones so i don't understand why people are writing off our last 2 drafts so quickly

for sure it does. And if the small players we picked in the later rounds (ie: SDA) they wouldn't have been there in the later rounds. If SDA was 6'1" he would have gone higher than 76th, on a bad team and the youngest player in the draft someone would have gone higher being small meant he fell a little bit.

Bigger guys with skill are great, but because they are rarer they get picked earlier and in the 3,4,5,6,7th rounds the highest skill players tend to be small because of this
 
So let’s sum up the first 4 rounds:

- Dubas trades down and gets fleeced.
- Dubas selects undersized, soft, low ceiling dman from (of course) SSM.
- In round 2 Dubas selects a 98’ born defenseman, who they could’ve signed last season, without burning a 2nd round draft pick.
- Round 3 Dubas selects another mini mite, who can’t even score goals at the junior level. Stotts is an OK pick.
- Round 4 he selects another undersized, 19 year old, dman from you guessed it SSM. He has no chance of being an NHL player and probably would have went undrafted.

So we know this about Dubas:

1) He loves undersized players.
2) He just can’t stop himself from drafting players from SSM.
3) He was unable to find any value whatsoever with these draft picks.
4) He can’t find value in a trade.

This draft is nothing short of embarrassing. If Dubas goal is to make this team as small and soft as possible, then he is doing a tremendous job.
let me tell you this, you are absolutely wrong and mentally stupid
 
let me tell you this, you are absolutely wrong and mentally stupid

I see you're new here. Just so you know, all of this guys posts are like this. Yes, every single one that I've ever seen is exactly like this.

This place has it's share of people who are basically a waste of time. Fortunately there are some really good posters here too. Good luck! :)
 
one thing I like about this draft is it looks like nearly every player we got has some upside due to being good hockey players. you definitely can't say that about our last few drafts
 
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