WC: 2017 Team Finland

[FiLe]

You can't give a final verdict until the tournament is over, but at this stage I'd say that changes are required. Either Marjamäki himself is let go, OR he commits to changing his ways (like J. Jalonen did after the 2009-2010 season) and only the assistants are fired.

He can't carry on with what we have now, that much is clear. The debatable question is, as you implied, do we change the coach, or do we trust the coach to change?

One of the reasons I'm holding a candle for Marjamäki is that I happen to know that coaches can learn from their fudge-ups. And more major, more likely it is. So I'd actually give it pretty good odds that if Marjamäki is allowed to continue and do a proper post-mortem here, we'll see him do a pooton of things differently come the next season.

However, a coach's job is still ultimately metered by his results. So if Finland flops royally here resultwise, he probably doesn't have the ground to carry on - there would be too much critique, too much scrutiny, too many outside distractions. A coach can shut it all out as long as the tournament is underway, but he can't do that for the entire year.

 

[BusQuets]

In 2011 after 5 games Finland had 10 points.

 

[Gaps]

He can't carry on with what we have now, that much is clear. The debatable question is, as you implied, do we change the coach, or do we trust the coach to change?

One of the reasons I'm holding a candle for Marjamäki is that I happen to know that coaches can learn from their fudge-ups. And more major, more likely it is. So I'd actually give it pretty good odds that if Marjamäki is allowed to continue and do a proper post-mortem here, we'll see him do a pooton of things differently come the next season.

However, a coach's job is still ultimately metered by his results. So if Finland flops royally here resultwise, he probably doesn't have the ground to carry on - there would be too much critique, too much scrutiny, too many outside distractions. A coach can shut it all out as long as the tournament is underway, but he can't do that for the entire year.

I agree with you. If Finland doesn't make the QFs, I say he's gone no matter what. If we do (as is still likely), but are eliminated, then a less radical option can be considered.

None of Marjamäki's worst flaws/mistakes are unfixable, but he needs to have a hard look in the mirror and admit there are issues. I understand that he's not used to pandering to what the players want, but the past has shown that pandering to certain players is beneficial and sometimes even vital to the success of the NT.

 

[DoubleGold]

Even if Marjamäki stays, what about the NHL players? It's evident that a portion of them declined due to him being the coach. Like the previously mentioned article on Iltalehti shows, he micromanages the team way too much, at least in the players eyes.

I say it's a problem that some of our best players don't want to attend the tournament due to him.

 

[Dahli]

No matter the final result, Marjamaki has to go. All games were disappoiting, in terms of points but also in terms of play.

Even our best players - Aho, Rantanen, Filpulla, Korpisalo - are playing horribly. The coach's job is to fuel the team with confidence and he has failed: Game vs Czech was a failure, the game vs Norway as well.

The Finnish staff should also work harder to attract our NHL players, Sweden has done it, why not Finland ? We can longuer compete with Pihlstrom, Aaltonen or Jaakola. Other teams have improved a lot for 5 years

 

[FiLe]

Even if Marjamäki stays, what about the NHL players? It's evident that a portion of them declined due to him being the coach. Like the previously mentioned article on Iltalehti shows, he micromanages the team way too much, at least in the players eyes.

I still think this issue has been blown out of proportions. Hearsay shouldn't be stated as fact.

However, if there are players who really have issues with Marjamäki, it all depends on whether they disagree with him on the tactical side, or do they consider him to be, well, a complete richard as a person.

If it's the former and not the latter, it won't be a major issue. All he needs to do is admit his mistakes to them and show that he can change his philosophy, give them more leash. That worked for J.Jalonen, at least.

 

[FiLe]

No matter the final result, Marjamaki has to go. All games were disappoiting, in terms of points but also in terms of play.

Even our best players - Aho, Rantanen, Filpulla, Korpisalo - are playing horribly. The coach's job is to fuel the team with confidence and he has failed: Game vs Czech was a failure, the game vs Norway as well.

The Finnish staff should also work harder to attract our NHL players, Sweden has done it, why not Finland ? We can longuer compete with Pihlstrom, Aaltonen or Jaakola. Other teams have improved a lot for 5 years

Whoa. Major deja vu. Last time I heard this kind of talk was in the summer of 2010.

Good thing we didn't get rid of the coach then.

 

[BB88]

If they keep Marjamaki how many NHL players will want to come next year, they all are seeing this mess and can read the headlines.

The team again/still has no creativity, no speed, no one is having fun.

Sweden with Backstrom& King now have something like 18 NHL players and NHL teams franchise players. Our neighbours are having more fun than we are.

 

[Kratti]

Now, after 5 games of preliminary round, Finland is at 0 goal differential. When is the last time we were not at a positive goal differential after 5 games in the world championships? 15 GA in 5 games is... I don't know. It's just sad.

Having said that, the second period against Norway wasn't bad, so maybe there is hope.

 

[Loffer]

Those who think Berry Hill's problem is only on the "tactical side" - well, whoa out to lunch you are and in an urgent need of an appointment to a shrink and quick and profound reality check. That **** is in his so called "DNA" so deep that you dismantle Eiffel tower and build it up again using only a screw driver faster than reinvent mr. Larry Berry Hill. Hah!

 

[Couchcaptain]

Now, after 5 games of preliminary round, Finland is at 0 goal differential. When is the last time we were not at a positive goal differential after 5 games in the world championships? 15 GA in 5 games is... I don't know. It's just sad.

Having said that, the second period against Norway wasn't bad, so maybe there is hope.

I think that sums it up pretty well.. I mean, how deep in **** Finnish national team is swimming these days..

 

[CPFC]

Those who think Berry Hill's problem is only on the "tactical side" - well, whoa out to lunch you are and in an urgent need of an appointment to a shrink and quick and profound reality check. That **** is in his so called "DNA" so deep that you dismantle Eiffel tower and build it up again using only a screw driver faster than reinvent mr. Larry Berry Hill. Hah!

Yeah, I've seen lamp posts with more charisma and spirit than Marjamäki. He needs a sidekick, someone to pump the mental tires of the players. Summanen and Westerlund were a good duo in that sense.

 

[Dahli]

Whoa. Major deja vu. Last time I heard this kind of talk was in the summer of 2010.

Good thing we didn't get rid of the coach then.

Supporting Marjamaki based on a situation that occured 7 years ago is...weird.

Just look at facts:
- last minute win vs Belarus, one of the weakest teams in the tournament
- 5-1 loss to France, a team that certainly playes with heart but is far from being the most talented team
- 4-3 loss to Czech which as a result is not a shame but the way it happened was pathetic.
- 5-2 win vs Slovenia but our opponents could clearly hope for a better outcome
- 3-2 win vs Norway, again with a pathetic goal against at the end of the Game

We have talented players but the team is f**** up: slow play, fragile défense, lack of confidence across the team, not so good PP and PK and completely weird choices (Pilhstrom in 2nd center ?! Benching Pulju in the 1st games while JM Aaltonen was already on vacation, etc.).

If things are not working properly, I don't understand why we should stick with the one responsible for this mess

 

[FiLe]

Just look at facts:
- last minute win vs Belarus, one of the weakest teams in the tournament
- 5-1 loss to France, a team that certainly playes with heart but is far from being the most talented team
- 4-3 loss to Czech which as a result is not a shame but the way it happened was pathetic.
- 5-2 win vs Slovenia but our opponents could clearly hope for a better outcome
- 3-2 win vs Norway, again with a pathetic goal against at the end of the Game

And if you go back and look at the historic results, the only uncommon outcome of those is the loss to France. There's nothing, absolutely nothing, strange about the rest. Most of those countries give us hard time every gosh darn year. It's been like that for the last decade or so. The days when we just trounce over the 2nd tier countries are long in the past.

You have the gall to talk about facts when you're clearly flying with feelings, and know nothing of history. I recommend reading some stats books before posting.

Almost all our coaches have had difficult first years before they've really found their groove. If Marjamäki somehow manages to salvage his job 'til the next season, he'll almost certainly show ya'll chicken littles that he's no exception. Of course, he needs at least an adequate result here to do that. The game vs. Switzerland tomorrow is key. Losing that and missing the QF probably means he's done, whether he can be excused or not.

 

[illone84]

I'm still optimistic that Finland will beat Switzerland. And yes, the Swiss are feeling awesome after beating Kanada, but still, they are tired. I think Finland will win. It will be a tight game and might go to OT or a shootout, but Finland will win.

BTW-, Not sure if you guys agree with me, but I hope Finland finishes in 4th and plays Russia, instead of Sweden (*yes, I do think Rus beats Latvia and USA, and Swe beats Denmark and Slovakia).

 

[Lataba76]

I'm still optimistic that Finland will beat Switzerland. And yes, the Swiss are feeling awesome after beating Kanada, but still, they are tired. I think Finland will win. It will be a tight game and might go to OT or a shootout, but Finland will win.

BTW-, Not sure if you guys agree with me, but I hope Finland finishes in 4th and plays Russia, instead of Sweden (*yes, I do think Rus beats Latvia and USA, and Swe beats Denmark and Slovakia).

But Finland must be attention in first period. The Swiss will be euphoric. Do you believe Finland has s chance in this tournament vs Russia?

 

[BruinLVGA]

I'm still optimistic that Finland will beat Switzerland. And yes, the Swiss are feeling awesome after beating Kanada, but still, they are tired. I think Finland will win. It will be a tight game and might go to OT or a shootout, but Finland will win.

BTW-, Not sure if you guys agree with me, but I hope Finland finishes in 4th and plays Russia, instead of Sweden (*yes, I do think Rus beats Latvia and USA, and Swe beats Denmark and Slovakia).

I think the same. Switzerland will be physically, but also mentally spent. Finland 4 Switzerland 0.

 

[Mestaruus]

You can't give a final verdict until the tournament is over, but at this stage I'd say that changes are required. Either Marjamäki himself is let go, OR he commits to changing his ways (like J. Jalonen did after the 2009-2010 season) and only the assistants are fired.

Would love to see some other assistant coaches as well but I dont know who could it be. Someone like Risto Duhva was a great assistant coach but I don't think he wants to come back.

My feeling is that it's important for Marjamäki that the coaching staff isn't much older than him or much more experienced than him to avoid conflicts and he clearly wants to be the man and not risk that. Like Aravirta and J.Jalonen said in studio that they liked that there was someone who would question or challenge their ideas and not be some sheep who agree to everything. It's only a guess but I think that's exactly what's going on and since Marjamäki chose them himself, he dug his own grave.

It needs to be someone who can lift the team's spirit/passion and somewhat agree with Marjamäki's views of the game. So less experienced options than Marjamäki but not much older could be Tomek Valtonen or Ville Nieminen. Jussi Ahokas if he wasn't occupied.

Who did Marjamäki have in Kärpät as assistant coaches? Some of the same guys as in national team?

 

[illone84]

But Finland must be attention in first period. The Swiss will be euphoric. Do you believe Finland has s chance in this tournament vs Russia?

Absolutely. It wouldn't be the first, nor the last time Finland would beat Russia. Could they get smoked? Of course. But I like the chances.
On the other hand, not scared of Switzerland. And don't like the chances against Sweden (*especially when their team is deep and ours is not).

 

[Asiantuntija]

Puljujärvi has to score at least one point in todays game. His accuracy has been ridicuously bad this far, if he misses that much changes in Edmonton, he would have very hard time to make it to the first team. At least he has been good in everything else, but when we talk about Jesse we expect him to product at least something.

 

[Dahli]

And if you go back and look at the historic results, the only uncommon outcome of those is the loss to France. There's nothing, absolutely nothing, strange about the rest. Most of those countries give us hard time every gosh darn year. It's been like that for the last decade or so. The days when we just trounce over the 2nd tier countries are long in the past.

You have the gall to talk about facts when you're clearly flying with feelings, and know nothing of history. I recommend reading some stats books before posting.

Almost all our coaches have had difficult first years before they've really found their groove. If Marjamäki somehow manages to salvage his job 'til the next season, he'll almost certainly show ya'll chicken littles that he's no exception. Of course, he needs at least an adequate result here to do that. The game vs. Switzerland tomorrow is key. Losing that and missing the QF probably means he's done, whether he can be excused or not.

Well, when reading the statistics as you suggested, I still consider that our current results are not in our standards.

2016 : 7 W ; 29 goals scored ; 6 goals against
Our performance : 6-2 (BLR) ; 2-0 (CAN) ; 5-1 (GER) ; 3-2 (USA) ; 3-0 (HUN) ; 3-1 (FRA) ; 5-0 (SVK)

No comment: Great offense and defense/goaltending (3 clean sheets)

2015: 4 W, 2 OTW, 1L ; 22 goals scored ; 9 goals against
Our performance: 1-5 (USA) ; 3-0 (DEN) ; 5-0 (NOR) ; 4-0 (SLO) ; 3-0 (SVK) ; 3-2 OT (BLR) ; 3-2 OT (RUS)
Apart from the accident in Game 1, very good performance. Great defense/goaltending (3 clean sheets)

2014 : 3 W, 1OTW, 3L ; 18 goals scored ; 15 goals against
Our performance: 2-3 (LAT) ; 2-4 (RUS) ; 4-0 (GER) ; 2-0 (BLR) ; 3-2 OT (SWT) ; 1-3 (USA) ; 4-3 (KAZ)
One of our worst tournaments but if we compare to the 2017 one: 2014 defense/goaltending should be better, 2014 offense may be better (considering how we currently struggle to score)

2013: 4W, 2OTW, 1L ; 23 goals scored ; 14 goals against
Our performance: 4-3 OT (GER), 2-0 (SVK), 3-1 (FRA), 1-4 (USA), 3-2 (RUS), 7-2 (AUS), 3-2 OT (LAT)
Overall, very good results.

Now 2017: 2 W, 1OTW, 1OTL, 1L ; 15 goals scored ; 15 goals against.
My conclusion if I follow your advice and look at the statistics before posting :
2017 is on the track of being one of our weakest performances along with 2014 in terms of points and both offence and defence.

Looking forward to the next games.

 

[Finnswiss]

I think the same. Switzerland will be physically, but also mentally spent. Finland 4 Switzerland 0.

I'm not so optimistic for Finland. In the whole tournament they only played 20 minutes well against the Czechs.

I don't see how they could improve suddenly their game so strongly.
The Swiss are neither mentally nor physically spent quite the contrary after the game against Canada. They could strenghten the self-confidence, they are standing high.

I wouldn't be surprised if Switzerland wins 4 or 5-0. The Finns only need to get in a 1 or 2 goal deficit and they are done.

 

[FiLe]

My conclusion if I follow your advice and look at the statistics before posting :
2017 is on the track of being one of our weakest performances along with 2014 in terms of points and both offence and defence.

Well, I wouldn't call this thing here a good performance either. But it's by no means not an outlier. And additionally, I mentioned that coaches haven't had all that great performances in their first year of reign.

Perhaps additional comparison should be made between this year and years 2015 (when K.Jalonen started), 2009 (when J.Jalonen started) and 2005 (when Westerlund started). Perhaps more examples could be found if we dig even deeper into the past, but that's probably pointless due to the way the game has advanced.


Of these years, K.Jalonen had a decent performance, as we can see.

J.Jalonen was so-so: 3W 2OTW, 2L +6GD.

And Erkka... was down right bad: 2W 3T* 2L -2GD.
2005 was also the NHL lockout year that extended over the entire season - many teams had quality rosters, yet Finland was even somewhat weaker than usual. I think I recall some hubbub** that Erkka was not an enticing coach for NHLers...

*Back then, ties were still possible.
**This was in times when we didn't yet have social media all over the place. Had it been, I can only imagine the noise.


Now, let's look how said coaches did in their 2nd WHC.

Massive gains for K.Jalonen, but of course that roster was unusually strong.

J.Jalonen actually regressed in 2010: 4W 3L -3GD
Well, I'm still saying, it's good we didn't sack the coach then, because 2011.

And it's a good thing we didn't sack Erkka either - Turin OG was naturally something else, followed by a solid performance at the 2010 WHC: 6W 1T 2L +13GD.


Overall, it's pretty easy to say that no one should judge the coach based on one jittery tournament performance, perhaps not even two. Even though I must state - in the name of intellectual honesty - that players available naturally matter too, so it isn't all directly comparable.

In any case, calling for Marjamäki to be sacked now is definitely premature. If he posts at least somewhat respectable result here, he's earned a second shot to show he's not an exception. Of course, he needs that result first. The tournament is still underway. So I'm not saying he should keep his job no matter what, but the discussion about his future should be saved for the tournament post-mortem.

 

[tade]

This is miserable Finnish team, I am disappointed.

 

[Sanf]

He can't carry on with what we have now, that much is clear. The debatable question is, as you implied, do we change the coach, or do we trust the coach to change?

One of the reasons I'm holding a candle for Marjamäki is that I happen to know that coaches can learn from their fudge-ups. And more major, more likely it is. So I'd actually give it pretty good odds that if Marjamäki is allowed to continue and do a proper post-mortem here, we'll see him do a pooton of things differently come the next season.

However, a coach's job is still ultimately metered by his results. So if Finland flops royally here resultwise, he probably doesn't have the ground to carry on - there would be too much critique, too much scrutiny, too many outside distractions. A coach can shut it all out as long as the tournament is underway, but he can't do that for the entire year.

Yeah we need patience here. Even though results have been disapointing and it can be frustrating. We need to allow coach make mistakes too.

I´m worried that if we start kick our coaches hastily the job itself can become a bad career move. I sort of understand why Rautakorpi was kicked out, but I wasn´t fan of that move either. These aren´t that well payed jobs if we compare it to KHL job for example. Quality coaches starts to avoid our NT coach jobs.