World Cup: 2016 World Cup Part II: All fans and nations welcome

[xxxx]

Duchene about World Cup 2016:

“As Canadians, we pride ourselves on being the best hockey nation in the world,” Duchene said. “We’re there right now, but we have to stay up there. We have so much respect for all the other nations, and we can be knocked off our ranking pretty quick. So this is just another opportunity to defend what we want to defend, and I feel blessed and lucky to be part of it.”

E.Johnson about World Cup 2016:

“This is a huge deal. This basically is the olympics. … It’ll be such a fun, fun experience. A lot of us that were named to the team know each other from the past. I think the biggest thing is that they didn’t medal in 2014 (at Sochi), and I think they looked at the 2010 team and saw that we were one goal away from the gold medal and they tried to build a team that was a physical, 200-foot team that plays hard and plays north-south. I think you see with the final seven selections, it’s not going to be an easy team to play against.”

Vlasic about the WC:

“Every time you can represent your country, it’s huge honor,” Vlasic said earlier Wednesday before the official announcement was made. “To do it on the biggest stages is even better. I’ve worked hard the last couple years, not only to make that team, but to win a Stanley Cup with the Sharks.”

Vlasic said being named to Team Canada is more important that earning All-Star game invitations because the selection comes from his nation’s brightest-hockey minds.

“If I’m named to an All-Star [game] I’ll be thrilled, of course, but it’s not as disappointing as if I wasn’t named to a World Championships, an Olympics or a World Cup,” Vlasic said. “My objective is to be on that team.”

Pavelski

“It’s just a cool event and it’s coming back, and I think a lot of players are excited for it,” Pavelski said. “It created a little bit of a buzz today seeing the guys that got named to it already and it’s exciting. It’s one of those events, when you get the chance to play for your country, it’s one of those special occurrences that happens, and it’s definitely a big honor.”

Hertl

“I was a little bit sad because already [the] coach before the Olympics told me if I [was] not hurt I’d go for sure [to the] Olympics,” Hertl said, adding: “I’m so excited [for the World Cup] because it’s the biggest tournament. The NHLPA is [doing] a great job, and I think this will be a lot of fun.”

Roman Polak

“It’s going to be the same thing as the Olympics,” Polak said. “It’s going to have a lot of great players because I still think the NHL is the best league in the world. You have all the best players in the world and they’re all going to be playing for their countries, so I think it’s going to be great, especially in Toronto. They’re going to make sure they take it to the next level.”

Hedman

“It’s going to be the best of the best pretty much,” Hedman said. “It’s going to be a fun tournament for everyone watching and playing. For us, it’s a great way to start the season. I’m very excited about it. There’s going to be a lot of tough games obviously, but at the same time, that’s what we play hockey for is to play in this kind of event.

Hellebuyck

“It's a huge milestone in my life,” Hellebuyck told the Winnipeg Sun. “I've already been told it's going to be similar to the feeling of an Olympics. So I'm pretty excited to just kind of absorb everything.

Pavelec

“Best players in the world are going to play, so it's great to be part of it,” Pavelec said. “It's 10 million people in Czech Republic, and I'm pretty sure most of them watching the tournament. It's always something special for me.”

Tatar

"I'm really excited, this team might have a big chance to win, I mean, there are many great players from different countries," he said. "It's going to be interesting to play for sure, and this new concept, lots of fun. I'm a little upset Team Slovakia is not there, but we don't have as many NHL players so it would be hard to compete against team like Canada or the U.S."

Mikko Koivu

Selected to the 2014 Finnish Olympic team, Koivu was forced to miss the tournament due to injury. "It’s always as important," Koivu said. "You realize when you do miss it the opportunities to play for your country are not as often. I don’t think that makes a difference. It’s always the biggest honor an athlete can get when you get a chance to play for your country."

Parise

"It’s always fun, and I’m looking forward to it," Parise said. "I know it’s a long ways away, and we have a lot of hockey, and summer until, but now that they’ve announced the teams, you start to get a little bit of the excitement and the buildup for it. It’s going to be a pretty cool event."

Vanek

"We’re all excited," he said Thursday. "Especially for myself, being an Austrian guy, when you’re going to worlds or the Olympics, you know going into the tournament you’re not going to medal. That’s just the way it is. So this gives us a chance to compete and have a good team. And at the same time, we’ll still represent our country in our own way. I don’t think see that being too much of an issue, finding that energy to play well."
"The way we’re going to look at it, let’s knock these countries down with what we have," said Vanek. "It’s a good team. We’ll be ready to compete and try to win it."

Frans Nielsen

“Growing up in Denmark, you never think you’ll have a chance to play in a World Cup,” Nielsen said. “It’s another childhood dream come true for me. I think it’s going to be an amazing experience.”

Niederreiter

"It's definitely a goal of mine to be able to play there," Niederreiter said. "But obviously there's a lot of great players which are potentially [in the mix]. I'm working hard to be a part of it and it would be great to have a chance to play for Team Europe."

Ryan Suter

“I’m very proud to get to represent my country,” said Suter, the Wild’s veteran defenseman who has played for U.S. teams in 10 international competitions in his career, including the 2010 and 2014 Olympics. “Whenever you wear your flag on your jersey, it’s pretty exciting. I’m really looking forward to it, and it’s going to be a lot of fun. It’s going to be the best against the best — very similar to the Olympics.”

Absolutely everything and anything I read about players is similar to this, I don't know what you, or people with similar opinions, are reading. So maybe you guys could shut up about how players don't care much or as much, or other delusions. It's absolute nonsense.

Boom.

 

[Theokritos]

...

A whole lot of platitudes and PR phrases right there. Pavelec is "pretty sure most of the 10 million people in Czech Republic are going to watch the tournament"? Sorry to disappoint him, but that's not going to happen. Polak says the best players are "all going to be playing for their countries"? Objectively untrue. Suter thinks "it's pretty exciting whenver you wear your flag on your jersey"? Sure, especially when you get to play against compatriots of yours like Jack Eichel.

Regardless, enjoy the tournament if you want, it's up to you and no-one is taking that away from you.

 

[Gaps]

Absolutely everything and anything I read about players is similar to this, I don't know what you, or people with similar opinions, are reading. So maybe you guys could shut up about how players don't care much or as much, or other delusions. It's absolute nonsense.

Boom.

You do understand that several of these players you quote emphasize how much they're looking forward to playing for their home country? Take Duchene and Koivu for example. Koivu would be proud to captain Finland in a ****ing beer league tournament! International hockey's about representing your country. If I were an NHL player didn't like the format of this tournament but at least my team actually got to participate, I know I'd be telling the media how much I'm looking forward to wearing my country's colors again and leave it at that.

 

[xxxx]

You do understand that several of these players you quote emphasize how much they're looking forward to playing for their home country[/I]? Take Duchene and Koivu for example. Koivu would be proud to captain Finland in a ****ing beer league tournament! International 's about representing your country. If I were an player didn't like the format of this tournament but at least my team actually got to participate, I know I'd be telling the media how much I'm looking forward to wearing my country's colors again and leave it at that.

And? And you ignored what Tatar, Niederreiter, or Vanek or Nielsen said, for some reasons?

If I were an player didn't like the format of this tournament but at least my team actually got to participate, I know I'd be telling the media how much I'm looking forward to wearing my country's colors again and leave it at that.

Yeah. Except that the players didn't leave it at that.


I'm done guys, this is completely silly, ridiculous, and absolutely embarrassing. I'm not gonna argue about such incredibly clear things, I'm embarrassed that there are actually people with such mixed, and quite delusional opinions, but whatever

 

[FiLe]

True Hockey Fan has shown he's completely tone deaf towards platitudes and cookie cutter responses. No skill in media literacy and ability to think critically whatsoever.

At this stage all we can hope is that these boards will still be here ten to twenty years in the future, when some of these players have released their memoirs. Then we'll know what they really thought about this.

 

[Seanaconda]

True Hockey Fan has shown he's completely tone deaf towards platitudes and cookie cutter responses. No skill in media literacy and ability to think critically whatsoever.

At this stage all we can hope is that these boards will still be here ten to twenty years in the future, when some of these players have released their memoirs. Then we'll know what they really thought about this.

pretty sure you'll be able to tell when you watch the games if they are excited or interested by it.

 

[FiLe]

pretty sure you'll be able to tell when you watch the games if they are excited or interested by it.

Unless they completely mail it in (which I believe they won't do, at worst they'll be going through the motions) there will always be room for people to argue that they did care - just like the players spouting platitudes gives 'em that room now.

 

[JackSlater]

True Hockey Fan has shown he's completely tone deaf towards platitudes and cookie cutter responses. No skill in media literacy and ability to think critically whatsoever.

At this stage all we can hope is that these boards will still be here ten to twenty years in the future, when some of these players have released their memoirs. Then we'll know what they really thought about this.

Ehh he comes across as pretty young, and he seems to believe what the NHL tells him. On the point of players caring... I'm sure that most of them do care. That doesn't make the tournament less of a joke given that non-national teams and interfering with player selections are the main issues though.

 

[Theokritos]

I'm done guys, this is completely silly, ridiculous, and absolutely embarrassing. I'm not gonna argue about such incredibly clear things, I'm embarrassed that there are actually people with such mixed, and quite delusional opinions, but whatever

Maybe I feel the same about your opinion, but I don't go around calling you silly, ridiculous or embarrassing.

As I said, enjoy the tournament.

 

[snipes]

Maybe I feel the same about your opinion, but I don't go around calling you silly, ridiculous or embarrassing.

As I said, enjoy the tournament.

Yeah, I think you've been fair with True Hockey Fan.

The guy clearly loves hockey and just wants to enjoy it. He makes some good points as well that I think you should acknowledge. I must say, while I disagree with your position you have debated reasonably and respectfully. It's nice when you can disagree with your interlocutor but still be respectful of their positions.

I'm with you guys on this taking away from international hockey because the historical record will have to reflect what this tournament is. It's in a class of its own. For me, it interrupts the current Golden Age that Canada is in at the Mens level right now, so that sucks. While not technically "best-on-best" nation v nation hockey, this tournament is the elite of the elite in terms of depth of talent.

Maybe this needs its own label as a "World Hockey Summit" or something I don't know, maybe even a word from another language can capture it better. It is essentially a gathering of the best players in the world with the deepest 8 teams that can be assembled amongst the hockey world.

It's kind of funny, what makes this tournament the deepest #1-8 is the hybrid teams. They should be just going all out and giving these teams more media attention, "in for a penny in for a pound" as they say. I'm more interested in following the group with Team North America, Sweden, Russia, and Finland.

I expect the Young Guns to go 0-3, but those guys will be insanely fast. Finland and Sweden look exciting with the new wave of Finnish offensive superstars and Sweden with the 2nd best group of Dmen in the world. Russia is a veteran team with question marks on D, however I've learned to never underestimate the Russian bear. I expect them to come out and be a very good team.

 

[jj cale]

I don't know about Team young guns going 0-3.

They play Russia,Sweden and Finland correct?

Finland and Russia look beatable for them imo, probably will lose to Sweden.

I think on paper they stack up well with Russia and Finland,should be games they can win.

Not expecting them to get blanked at all.

 

[snipes]

I don't know about Team young guns going 0-3.

They play Russia,Sweden and Finland correct?

Finland and Russia look beatable for them imo, probably will lose to Sweden.

I think on paper they stack up well with Russia and Finland,should be games they can win.

Not expecting them to get blanked at all.

I learnt from the previous WHC to keep expectations lower, let them be the underdogs. No McDavid points predictions this time, but I have full confidence he'll show the hockey world he is the most talented hockey player alive.

Plus, Team NA can take away the "underdog" spot the Finns love to be in . I think they have a shot to beat Finland, the Finnish D does not look very strong. The Finns are still a few years away from their Golden Age at the Mens level. It'll be really interesting to see their young superstar forwards begin to emerge as the new era of Finnish players at the mens level. I think 2022 could be a special year for Finland in the Olympics, at the 2018 Olympics I can't see anyone beating Canada. The 2016 World Cup is a good transition tournament for the Finns to let their young stars play against the best competition in the world.

Russia is bringing a veteran team, but have questions on D as well. I think Russia should be favoured against them still though.

Sweden is significantly better than the Young Guns. That Swedish D is close to being as good as Canada, I give Canada the slight edge because we are better Dmen #4-6, but top 3 Dmen are neck and neck between us. Sweden should be strong.

It's likely Sweden and Russia emerge from their pool.

 

[jj cale]

I learnt from the previous WHC to keep expectations lower, let them be the underdogs. No McDavid points predictions this time, but I have full confidence he'll show the hockey world he is the most talented hockey player alive.

Plus, Team NA can take away the "underdog" spot the Finns love to be in . I think they have a shot to beat Finland, the Finnish D does not look very strong. The Finns are still a few years away from their Golden Age at the Mens level. It'll be really interesting to see their young superstar forwards begin to emerge as the new era of Finnish players at the mens level. I think 2022 could be a special year for Finland in the Olympics, at the 2018 Olympics I can't see anyone beating Canada. The 2016 World Cup is a good transition tournament for the Finns to let their young stars play against the best competition in the world.

Russia is bringing a veteran team, but have questions on D as well. I think Russia should be favoured against them still though.

Sweden is significantly better than the Young Guns. That Swedish D is close to being as good as Canada, I give Canada the slight edge because we are better Dmen #4-6, but top 3 Dmen are neck and neck between us. Sweden should be strong.

It's likely Sweden and Russia emerge from their pool.

Yeah, I don't see them beating Sweden, that D core is strong.

Russia? I agree, Russia will be favored, but I look at the lineups and I don't think by much. That should be a tough game for the Russian squad, their defense as we are all aware is not up to snuff with teams like Canada,Sweden and the U.S. I can see the young guns squeaking a win out against them.

Finland? I actually think the under 23 team is more talented, I don't even know if I would put them as the underdog in that game but maybe I shouldn't be putting them as the underdog against Russia either.

Russia and Finland are winnable games for that team. They don't play the Czechs but they are a team where I would be surprised if they lost to them.

We will see against Finland with their much vaunted "team game" but on paper they stack up real well aside from nets.But goaltending can be a crapshoot anyway.

 

[DaJackal]

I will watch and very likely enjoy, but even though I value international hockey above everything else (yes, even NHL) I will not hold this in very big value. Reasons? I have three.

1) The gimmick teams. No novel points here to be made, everything has been said already.

2) Lack of history/continuity. At the moment this is not an event that happens at regular intervals. Therefore I value Olympics and WHC higher. I understand that this view is not likely shared by many others, but for me this has a huge impact factor.

3) Best of 3 final series, what? For me, an international tournament = one game decides all (in PO stage, of course). This is the beauty of tournaments: the underdog has a much better chance to win while the game is still equally fair for both parties. Surprises happen, and surprises are the best thing in international tournaments. They generate enthusiasm in lesser countries and lead to increased attention for the sport in these countries, therefore spreading the interest to new markets.

That said, go Finland! If they do well I'll be happy, but honestly I'd be happier to see them winning the WHC in 2017.

 

[SpoolCat]

I will watch and very likely enjoy, but even though I value international hockey above everything else (yes, even NHL) I will not hold this in very big value. Reasons? I have three.

1) The gimmick teams. No novel points here to be made, everything has been said already.

2) Lack of history/continuity. At the moment this is not an event that happens at regular intervals. Therefore I value Olympics and WHC higher. I understand that this view is not likely shared by many others, but for me this has a huge impact factor.

3) Best of 3 final series, what? For me, an international tournament = one game decides all (in PO stage, of course). This is the beauty of tournaments: the underdog has a much better chance to win while the game is still equally fair for both parties. Surprises happen, and surprises are the best thing in international tournaments. They generate enthusiasm in lesser countries and lead to increased attention for the sport in these countries, therefore spreading the interest to new markets.

That said, go Finland! If they do well I'll be happy, but honestly I'd be happier to see them winning the WHC in 2017.

I can get behind two of your points but the best of three format has happened several times through the Canada/World cup history I may be wrong but I believe only the 1981 and 2004 tournaments didn't have this format so it sticks to the semblance of tradition.

 

[xxxx]

A whole lot of platitudes and PR phrases right there.

Oh yeah. Could you point them to me? I'd love to know how do you know the difference between a phrase and honest opinion that is actually coming genuinely from the player.

Pavelec is "pretty sure most of the 10 million people in Czech Republic are going to watch the tournament"? Sorry to disappoint him, but that's not going to happen.

How do you know that?

Polak says the best players are "all going to be playing for their countries"? Objectively untrue.

Yeah, not technically true, so?

Suter thinks "it's pretty exciting whenver you wear your flag on your jersey"? Sure, especially when you get to play against compatriots of yours like Jack Eichel.

Your comment is pretty irrelevant to whether he actually means that seriously or not.

Regardless, enjoy the tournament if you want, it's up to you and no-one is taking that away from you.

My quality and degree of enjoyment is absolutely independent on anything here.

True HockeyFan has shown he's completely tone deaf towards platitudes and cookie cutter responses. No skill in media literacy and ability to think critically whatsoever.

Honestly I think you call that everything. As I said to Theokritos, I'd love to know how do you know the difference between a platitude and honest opinion that is actually coming genuinely from the player. I also wonder, would you think the same thoughts about it if the tournament had standard format? I mean, then players saying "I'm proud to play there", or "it's the biggest tournament" would no longer be a phrase, but true, right?

Honestly I just think you find it hard to believe that players could actually feel differently about a tournament that you don't find to be appropriate to you. That's my opinion.

Unless they completely mail it in (which I believe they won't do, at worst they'll be going through the motions) there will always be room for people to argue that they did care - just like the players spouting platitudes gives 'em that room now.

Seriously, would you ever be able to admit the players really, really care? Even if it was actually true, according to everything on and off the ice, I don't think so.

Maybe I feel the same about your opinion, but I don't go around calling you silly, ridiculous or embarrassing.

I didn't call you silly or ridiculous, but the debate situation and some of the opinions.




The thing is, assuming that players percieve the tournament in a different way than they tell, is just an assumption. If someone questions their responses based on their own personal perception of the tournament, it's not really valid in relation to factual reality.

 

[FiLe]

Honestly I think you call that everything. As I said to Theokritos, I'd love to know how do you know the difference between a platitude and honest opinion that is actually coming genuinely from the player. I also wonder, would you think the same thoughts about it if the tournament had standard format? I mean, then players saying "I'm proud to play there", or "it's the biggest tournament" would no longer be a phrase, but true, right?

I call the things you present as "evidence for caring" platitudes and cookie cutter responses, because that's what they are.

Being able to point out a platitude is not something you can teach another man in a few words, it's very much those things one learns by experience. We could compare it to trying to tell a man in a few words that his religious views have no basis in reality. You can make that argument, but he will simply dismiss it, only because he just chooses not to believe what he's just heard. So I'm not going to get into that quagmire, since you obviously lack the experience required, as your own words allude.

Also, I wouldn't put much weight on players' words even if it was a supposedly meaningful tournament. It'd be intellectual dishonesty to use same kind of material in two different manners depending on one's agenda.

For example, how do I know that Sochi, which I consider a meaningful tournament, mattered to players like Mikko Koivu and Steven Stamkos? Well, both got hurt, and tried their darnest to get healthy in time for the games, resorting to doing things they wouldn't have done if it just had been a bunch of NHL regular season games on the line. (They were long shots, and both ultimately failed.) So it was what they did that told us Sochi mattered, not the platitudes they spouted preceding the tournament.

Seriously, would you ever be able to admit the players really, really care? Even if it was actually true, according to everything on and off the ice, I don't think so.

Here you're battling a straw man. I've never made this a binary argument, as in "all players care, or all players don't care". 184 hockey players are not a homogenous group, so there are bound to be those who don't mind playing competitive games instead of practicing, and there are bound to be those who wouldn't mind it if their mind wasn't soured by the tournament format (this is not to say they still wouldn't try to make the best of it).

The thing is, while players spouting platitudes is not an argument for them caring of the tournament (as you so obstinately insist), it is neither an argument against it. It's just what it is - players giving cookie cutter responses in front of the mike that may or may not reflect their true feelings.

However, since we also have some players speaking negatively, that is a sign that there are some who are being queasy about it. Because negative responses generally are honest, whereas positive either may reflect ones true feelings or be a simple platitude. Some players not caring is not an "opinion", it's a fact. And that alone means this tournament is less meaningful than usual, since you didn't hear a single negative response before Sochi. Or Vancouver in 2010.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yeah, I think you've been fair with True Hockey Fan.

The guy clearly loves hockey and just wants to enjoy it. He makes some good points as well that I think you should acknowledge. I must say, while I disagree with your position you have debated reasonably and respectfully. It's nice when you can disagree with your interlocutor but still be respectful of their positions.

I'm with you guys on this taking away from international hockey because the historical record will have to reflect what this tournament is. It's in a class of its own. For me, it interrupts the current Golden Age that Canada is in at the Mens level right now, so that sucks. While not technically "best-on-best" nation v nation hockey, this tournament is the elite of the elite in terms of depth of talent.

Maybe this needs its own label as a "World Hockey Summit" or something I don't know, maybe even a word from another language can capture it better. It is essentially a gathering of the best players in the world with the deepest 8 teams that can be assembled amongst the hockey world.

It's kind of funny, what makes this tournament the deepest #1-8 is the hybrid teams. They should be just going all out and giving these teams more media attention, "in for a penny in for a pound" as they say. I'm more interested in following the group with Team North America, Sweden, Russia, and Finland.

I expect the Young Guns to go 0-3, but those guys will be insanely fast. Finland and Sweden look exciting with the new wave of Finnish offensive superstars and Sweden with the 2nd best group of Dmen in the world. Russia is a veteran team with question marks on D, however I've learned to never underestimate the Russian bear. I expect them to come out and be a very good team.

I agree that another label would be more appropriate. To me it's not that bit a deal though because the hockey will be what it is (amazing) regardless of the label and that's what's important to me. Others seem to be somehow insulted that this even is taking place at all and the name and the gimmick teams make the event meaningless, good for them.

Let's say for arguments sake that on a scale of 1-10, top quality playoff hockey is a 9, international play (between the elite teams, not teams ranked 8th in the world or WE) is a 9.5, playoff hockey on average is an 8 and regular season hockey on average is a 6 (with some games reaching 9) ... where does this tournament fit in? If the 1987 final was a 9.5, where will this years final rank assuming there are no major upsets and Canada is in the final against whoever? I'd say it can't be 9.5 because the opposition won't be that strong and maybe because it's not a true best-on-best etc. the players will be less motivated as some have said. However, any lack of motivation will be minor IMO and the final should still be in the 8.5-9 range.

What I find hard to take seriously is some of the comments here that suggest the players won't be taking it seriously, it's altogether meaningless etc. I'd be curious to see what some of these people think, forget all the labels and historical context etc., based on quality of hockey alone, on a scale of 1-10 what do you expect from the final?

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Can't see Finland losing to young guns and Russia, but I can't also see Russia losing to Sweden and young guns. Sweden has a good chance to lose against Russia and ok chance lose to young guns and Finland.

Most interesting tournament in a while in terms of the final outcome.

 

[JackSlater]

Can't see Finland losing to young guns and Russia, but I can't also see Russia losing to Sweden and young guns. Sweden has a good chance to lose against Russia and ok chance lose to young guns and Finland.

Most interesting tournament in a while in terms of the final outcome.

... the outcome of one off games is pretty random.

 

[Gary Nylund]

... the outcome of one off games is pretty random.

Yup.

 

[xxxx]

Let's say for arguments sake that on a scale of 1-10, top quality playoff is a 9, international play (between the elite teams, not teams ranked 8th in the world or WE) is a 9.5, playoff on average is an 8 and regular season on average is a 6 (with some games reaching 9) ... where does this tournament fit in? If the 1987 final was a 9.5, where will this years final rank assuming there are no major upsets and Canada is in the final against whoever? I'd say it can't be 9.5 because the opposition won't be that strong and maybe because it's not a true best-on-best etc. the players will be less motivated as some have said. However, any lack of motivation will be minor IMO and the final should still be in the 8.5-9 range.

What I find hard to take seriously is some of the comments here that suggest the players won't be taking it seriously, it's altogether meaningless etc. I'd be curious to see what some of these people think, forget all the labels and historical context etc., based on quality of hockey alone, on a scale of 1-10 what do you expect from the final?

To me the motivation will be absolutely the highest, and I expect the pre-game games between Canada and US to be something like 8.5, at the tournament 9.5. But you probably expected me to say that But I genuinely believe this could be the best tournament we have ever seen. Hopefully, for the sake of the tournament, it's true. Perhaps I will be proven wrong.

 

[Jussi]

... the outcome of one off games is pretty random.

And we Finns are notorious for losing when we're not supposed to.

 

[jj cale]

And we Finns are notorious for losing when we're not supposed to.

I'm counting on it.

 

[JackSlater]

And we Finns are notorious for losing when we're not supposed to.

Never considered it that way. Any team that wins more than its talent indicates, like Finland, seems like it benefits from a one off.