World Cup: 2016 World Cup Part II: All fans and nations welcome

[Don Corleone]

"Competitive" and "tournament" are fair things to hope for, but let's still leave definition "best on best" for tournaments that are truly international. This is exactly what I meant when I said some fans are buying into misleading sentiments.

Simply put, if you really have to defend this thing, at least defend it as what it is, not as what it pretends to be.

So the way I read this is that you think this is not a best on best tournament. Which I find curious. The WC has all the big nations, the best possible players of those nations + all the best possible players from Europe whos nation is not represented + the young guns. For a tournament that has 8 teams, it could not possibly be more competitive. If the Olympics was made of 8 teams it would actually be worse in terms of talent since many great players would be missing. Since this absolutely is a best on best in terms of talent are you then arguing that for a tournament to be concidered best on best it has to include more nations/teams or have the IIHF licence? Why should it, where does it say that every tournament should have a X number of participants to be best on best. As for the international thing well it does feature all the top talent in the hockey universe so I consider that certainly international, how could it possibly not be?

 

[Theokritos]

What I also like is those pre-tournament games and the training camp for all the teams, that makes it really much better than anything before.

You might want to look up that thing they used to call "Canada Cup". And also the 1996 and 2004 World Cup tournaments.

 

[Theokritos]

As for the international thing well it does feature all the top talent in the hockey universe so I consider that certainly international, how could it possibly not be?

Then I guess you also consider the NHL an international tournament as the league features top talent from all hockey nations.

 

[Don Corleone]

Then I guess you also consider the NHL an international tournament as the league features top talent from all hockey nations.

Fine argument as the NHL does indeed have national teams playing in it. Try harder

 

[Theokritos]

Fine argument as the NHL does indeed have national teams playing in it. Try harder

National teams playing against national teams is indeed what defines an international (non-club) tournament. Unfortunately the World Cup has two non-national teams participating, which reduces the tournament to a better version of the Spengler Cup.

 

[Don Corleone]

National teams playing against national teams is indeed what defines an international (non-club) tournament. Unfortunately the World Cup has two non-national teams participating, which reduces the tournament to a better version of the Spengler Cup.

Fair enough. Personally the 2 bonus teams make it even better since they increase the quality of the tournament. Better teams and players usually equals better hockey. That is the goal of all this right? To entertain.

What I find interesting is that there are quite a bit of people who downplay this tournament because it is not traditional for example in the teams that it has. It's just curious to see that it's such a big deal for some. Not that there is anything wrong with that. International or not, traditional or not, 2 weird teams, don't care as long as the hockey is great and it should be.

 

[Theokritos]

Fair enough. Personally the 2 bonus teams make it even better since they increase the quality of the tournament. Better teams and players usually equals better hockey. That is the goal of all this right? To entertain.

What I find interesting is that there are quite a bit of people who downplay this tournament because it is not traditional for example in the teams that it has. It's just curious to see that it's such a big deal for some. Not that there is anything wrong with that. International or not, traditional or not, 2 weird teams, don't care as long as the hockey is great and it should be.

I (and most others I guess) wouldn't mind it if they just called it NHL Holiday on Ice or anything. But we've had the Canada Cup/World Cup before, it's an established international tournament (as in national teams vs national teams) and now they've got the guts to change something fundamental about it, to stop it from being an international best-on-best tournament in the established sense of the word and to still pretend it's the same. They're making a mockery out of international hockey. As mentioned in the previous thread, it's like assembling two all-star teams consisting of players from non-playoff teams and let them compete in the Stanley Cup playoffs. Entertaining? Maybe, but let's not act as if it was still the Stanley Cup. Many NHL fans would be in arms and not without reason.

 

[Don Corleone]

Time flies and things change. I rather be open to new things, its quite fun and exciting Does changing the WC rules make the hockey any worse? No, actually the new setup makes it more likely to be more entertaining and competitive. At the end of the day does anything else really matter? I welcome the idea of making any tournament, league whatever more exciting as long as its not unfair or something like that. Like putting 2 All Star teams to the NHL would not exactly be fair to anyone.

 

[Theokritos]

I welcome the idea of making any tournament, league whatever more exciting as long as its not unfair or something like that. Like putting 2 All Star teams to the NHL would not exactly be fair to anyone.

If the strength of the two teams selected from the non-playoff clubs is your only issue, then make it a U24 selection and a European selection instead. Or whatever seems more fair than two all-star teams. You can bet you would be pretty lonely with your excitement either way, most NHL fans would be upset and disgusted by any "improvement" of that kind. Accordingly it's not too hard to understand why a lot of fans of international hockey are furious about the two gimmick teams.

 

[Seanaconda]

If the strength of the two teams selected from the non-playoff clubs is your only issue, then make it a U24 selection and a European selection instead. Or whatever seems more fair than two all-star teams. You can bet you would be pretty lonely with your excitement either way, most NHL fans would be upset and disgusted by any "improvement" of that kind. Accordingly it's not too hard to understand why a lot of fans of international hockey are furious about the two gimmick teams.

We will see. If the hockey is great and the players actually care all these grumps will come around. Have your asterisks even. It's not like we consider the world championship the same as the Olympics hockey fans will know the difference.


Are you guys just scared your team will lose to either north America or team Europe?

 

[Don Corleone]

If the strength of the two teams selected from the non-playoff clubs is your only issue, then make it a U24 selection and a European selection instead. Or whatever seems more fair than two all-star teams. You can bet you would be pretty lonely with your excitement either way, most NHL fans would be upset and disgusted by any "improvement" of that kind. Accordingly it's not too hard to understand why a lot of fans of international hockey are furious about the two gimmick teams.

Where did I say I want teams added to NHL? You used it as a example and I said it would not be fair. This really has nothing to do with the WC and a weak argument why the tournament sucks. Team Europe and young guns are not better than some of the national teams so it is not unfair to add them. Actually it is pretty neat that all top players can participate. Normally Kopitar for instance would never get the chance to play in a tournament like this.

 

[Slimmy]

If the strength of the two teams selected from the non-playoff clubs is your only issue, then make it a U24 selection and a European selection instead. Or whatever seems more fair than two all-star teams. You can bet you would be pretty lonely with your excitement either way, most NHL fans would be upset and disgusted by any "improvement" of that kind. Accordingly it's not too hard to understand why a lot of fans of international hockey are furious about the two gimmick teams.

I thought the fans got what they wanted? A true best on best. It's the closest to a best on best they've ever had so why the complaints? I don't think Canada Cup or the World Cup before it qualified as a true international tournament.

 

[xxxx]

You might want to look up that thing they used to call "Canada Cup". And also the 1996 and 2004 World Cup tournaments.

My bad. I had only the olympics in mind.

 

[Theokritos]

My bad. I had only the olympics in mind.

Fair enough.

This really has nothing to do with the WC and a weak argument why the tournament sucks.

Not at all. Having these two gimmick teams in the "World Cup" tournament instead of two national teams is like having only 14 teams making the NHL playoffs and then cobbling together two new teams from the 16 other clubs and admitting those new teams to the "Stanley Cup" playoffs.

We will see. If the hockey is great and the players actually care all these grumps will come around.

I know I won't. It's a matter of principle.

Are you guys just scared your team will lose to either north America or team Europe?

Considering "my" team wouldn't even be in the World Cup anyway and now thanks to "Team Europe" they get a couple of players in there, why would I be scared? However, I'd much prefer not to see any of "my" players in that mockery of an international tournament. You don't have to agree with that stance, but you can at least accept that this is indeed a question of principle for some, not just a pretext.

 

[Canuckistani]

The WC has all the big nations, the best possible players of those nations

Well no it doesn't, because two countries are being denied all of their best players.

It's not so much an issue for Canada (which might have selected McDavid as a 13th forward), but team USA is severely damaged by the idiotic U-24 team.

 

[Canuckistani]

Fair enough. Personally the 2 bonus teams make it even better since they increase the quality of the tournament. Better teams and players usually equals better hockey. That is the goal of all this right? To entertain.

Great, so why doesn't the NHL do away with the two eighth seeds in the NHL playoffs and replace them with mixed teams made up of the best players from teams that didn't qualify?

That would make for much better talent and more entertaining hockey.

Normally Kopitar for instance would never get the chance to play in a tournament like this.

He played in Sochi, didn't he?

 

[FiLe]

Considering "my" team wouldn't even be in the World Cup anyway and now thanks to "Team Europe" they get a couple of players in there, why would I be scared? However, I'd much prefer not to see any of "my" players in that mockery of an international tournament. You don't have to agree with that stance, but you can at least accept that this is indeed a question of principle for some, not just a pretext.

My team is in this, and I know I won't do more than check results on the morning, for the same reason. Principle. I watch international tournaments. I could watch this if it was honest about what it was instead of pretending to be international - it's pseudo-international at best. Whatever sensations of being entertained would be grossly overshadowed by the nagging feeling that someone is pulling a fast one on me and my intelligence is being insulted. (This is not to say I expect everyone should feel the same. If you can ignore that feeling and enjoy it for what it is, good for you.)

I also have to vent a little about that "afraid their team is gonna lose" argument in general. It really feels like one of those you can't win no matter what you say. If you deny it, the one who made the question will just act all smug, and be like the real reason for disliking it was just uncovered.

 

[Slimmy]

Great, so why doesn't the NHL do away with the two eighth seeds in the NHL playoffs and replace them with mixed teams made up of the best players from teams that didn't qualify?

I don't think that's a very good parallel. All the NHL teams get to compete for a playoff spot and
a league is a lot more homogenous than an international tourney.

The World Cup has actually progressed/evolved in a natural way. The selection of refs is exclusively from the NHL, the games are held in NHL team stadiums with NHL sized ice surface. The goal then naturally is to have teams which predominately consist of NHL players, which is why it is an invitational in the first place. Add team Europe and team NA u24 and you have the product which makes most sense from an NHL perspective.
People who only now start complaining because their team is getting a disadvantage from the latest additions of teams or talk of principles really have no right to complain.

This tourney never held any principles, was never that interested in the integrity of the international game or a level playing field. It's entertainment and ultimately business. I actually like this product more than the previous one because it isn't really masquerading as a true international anymore.

 

[Don Corleone]

He played in Sochi, didn't he?

Slovenia would not play in the World Cup.

 

[FiLe]

I actually like this product more than the previous one because it isn't really masquerading as a true international anymore.

Ahem, that's exactly what it's doing if you listen to their marketing.

It would be lot easier to swallow if they at least were honest about it.

 

[FiLe]

Slovenia would not play in the World Cup.

Woe is Kopitar, he already got to experience a real best-on-best tournament, but without this opportunity, he never would have experienced a plasticky, pseudo-international one.

 

[stars33]

Just speaking for my circle of friends who are hockey fans. They are split into two groups when it comes to international hockey.
The first group hates it because they are afraid of injuries to there favorite team or fanasty team players. They do not like the possibility of there player getting injured playing for someone other than there team.
The second group loves international hockey. I think because it is a break from the norm. But I can not find one person and I play adult ice hockey that is excited for this tournament. Some do not know much about it and others do not feel it is a legit international tournament. Some even said they will be watching football and only care about there NHL team.

 

[Slimmy]

Ahem, that's exactly what it's doing if you listen to their marketing.

It would be lot easier to swallow if they at least were honest about it.

I haven't seen their marketing or how they are trying to sell it. I've only seen how media sells it and if they want to wrap it like that, it's their prerogative. Anyhoo, it's obvious to anyone who pays attention that it isn't and it's very difficult for anyone now a days to argue that it is.

The only real fear I have is that Sweden wins the thing and the Hockey Federation is expecting thousands to show up to celebrate. It's going to be awkward.

 

[Don Corleone]

Woe is Kopitar, he already got to experience a real best-on-best tournament, but without this opportunity, he never would have experienced a plasticky, pseudo-international one.

OK. Why the hostility, did the World Cup piss on your cereal?

 

[Canuckistani]

Slovenia would not play in the World Cup.

And thank goodness for that!

I'm sure Kopitar is relieved at not having to play for his country this time.