World Cup: 2016 World Cup — Team Europe

[Hardyvan123]

I am amazed that anyone buys the NHL's boneheaded "competitiveness" excuse for this tournament. Some people will apparently believe anything put in front of them. There is no issue with the competitiveness of best on best tournaments. Slovakia nearly beat Canada in the 2010 semi final, and Switzerland has a better record against Canada in NHL Olympics than USA does. Are they favourites? Of course not, but they are competitive.

Is the European Leftovers team going to fare much better? There is a talent increase over Slovakia, but cohesion (which is how the less talented teams compete) is going to be limited, and motivation is questionable. The Young Gunz have no NHL goaltender, no number one defencemen, no cohesion from playing together over the years, no system in place that the players grew up together playing, no experience at the highest level of hockey outside of Saad, and once again little motivation.

Will these gimmick teams fare better than Switzerland or Slovakia would have? Possibly, but there is more than enough reason to think not. Should they even be involved in a supposedly international tournament? Definitely not.

Most teams don't have the cohesion that you are talking about, that's just noise.

As is the no NHL goaltender for the U23, who cares the US used a non NHL goaltender at the WHC last year and he excelled.

the U23 team has 3 guys who very well can be #1 types by the time the tournament is on in Ekblad, Jones, and Trouba.

Heck speaking of Jones he won the best Dman award at the WHC not last season but the season before, so enough already on the U23 team not having a #1 Dman.

That type of argument is going to carry more weight against the Slovak and Swiss teams for example if you want to keep going there.

I get that you don't like the nature of the gimmick, alot of people don't like change but it's an NHL sanctioned tournament imposing it's will on the WHC or Olympics, people need to relax a bit and stop exaggerating

 

[Hardyvan123]

or, it's because of love of the game? The NHL wants to have the most NHL players possible. That's not only about money. It's about quality. Besides, I'm not sure how much this is related to money. Would a world cup without those all star team generate any less money? Doubtful. I bet that many people would even argue the opposite. And the money goes to the NHL and NHLPA anyway.

pretty much this, although I guess an argument could be made for people, ie paying fans more likely to pay to see the better U23 and rest of Europe teams than Slovakia, Switzerland ect..

God only knows that in the WHC in Europe the lesser games are sold out weeks in advance and..........

 

[Hardyvan123]

The Czechs won gold in 1998 with a roster than was mostly non-NHLers.

sure if Slovakia have anything close to a prime Hasek, Jagr and the handful of other NHLers they would do well but they don't

dido the Swiss

If you think that you can replace national pride with the Leftovers and an age group then I don't know what to tell you.

That's crap, NHL hockey players are professionals and for the most part they play to win every game they are in regardless of the jersey they are wearing.

Maybe the players from Europe are motivated differently?

Also we see younger players from Canada split up into Ontario, the west ect for international tournaments, they don't have any less pride or try in their game, your comments are misplaced IMO.

You don't seem to have the slightest idea as to what makes international hockey what it is.

This is first and foremost an NHL tournament that's where you are mistaken, it's not the Olympics and not the WHC.

 

[chrigu6]

Lord Killanin: The US Boys only finished 7th at the last World Cup an they lost 10-3 against the UDSSR. Let's replace them with a Team South America!

 

[Canuckistani]

sure if Slovakia have anything close to a prime Hasek, Jagr and the handful of other NHLers they would do well but they don't

Neither do the Leftovers or the Kiddie Squad, but you're still somehow gung-ho for that idea nonetheless.

So why not just replace the Kids and Leftovers with Slovakia and Switzerland and allow the event to retain some degree of legitimacy?

That's crap, NHL hockey players are professionals and for the most part they play to win every game they are in regardless of the jersey they are wearing.

No, Connor McDavid and Nathan MacKinnon do not want to play against Team Canada, and anyone who thinks so is an idiot. The fact that the NHL would even put them in that position is a complete scandal.

Also we see younger players from Canada split up into Ontario, the west ect for international tournaments

They're still representing their province, they don't risk the possibility of playing against their own national team, and they're not teamed up with their cross-border rivals. Other than that, good comparison.

This is first and foremost an NHL tournament that's where you are mistaken, it's not the Olympics and not the WHC.

Again, I wouldn't give a crap were it not for the fact that it might replace the Olympics - the only real best-on-best event that we have.

 

[JackSlater]

Most teams don't have the cohesion that you are talking about, that's just noise.

Completely wrong on your part. The weaker teams play systems, and that is how they are competitive. Switzerland, Finland etc. These teams will have no system background, and they don't have the talent to compete on talent alone.

As is the no NHL goaltender for the U23, who cares the US used a non NHL goaltender at the WHC last year and he excelled.

Good for him for doing well in a much lower competitive environment behind a motivated team. This is a different situation, and also one good performance is not significant enough. The Latvian goaltender had a very strong Olympics in 2014... I wouldn't trust him to be an elite goaltender again though.

the U23 team has 3 guys who very well can be #1 types by the time the tournament is on in Ekblad, Jones, and Trouba.

Heck speaking of Jones he won the best Dman award at the WHC not last season but the season before, so enough already on the U23 team not having a #1 Dman.

That type of argument is going to carry more weight against the Slovak and Swiss teams for example if you want to keep going there.

Those three defencemen are not #1 defencemen yet, it could change in one year but that's rather unlikely. Jones excelled as a young player in a tournament with a much lower talent level and mature players around him. Teams like Switzerland play with a system designed for international hockey to provide a cohesive team defensive effort... the Young Gunz and Euros will not have this shared common experience. Slovakia has a number one defenceman.

I get that you don't like the nature of the gimmick, alot of people don't like change but it's an NHL sanctioned tournament imposing it's will on the WHC or Olympics, people need to relax a bit and stop exaggerating

Once again, I don't like stupid change. The Canada Cup itself in 1976 was a change, and a great one. The NHL through Daly has also admitted that this tournament will be used as a means of getting the NHL out of the Olympics, so what you are saying is once again wrong. THere is every reason to hope that this tournament falls flat on its face.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Completely wrong on your part. The weaker teams play systems, and that is how they are competitive. Switzerland, Finland etc. These teams will have no system background, and they don't have the talent to compete on talent alone.

That's exactly what we need more of teams trying not to lose a game and keep it clsoe so they can win on a lucky bounce.

I'd prefer to see actual talent compared to systems.

Good for him for doing well in a much lower competitive environment behind a motivated team. This is a different situation, and also one good performance is not significant enough. The Latvian goaltender had a very strong Olympics in 2014... I wouldn't trust him to be an elite goaltender again though.

Both Gibson and Hellebuyck have a big enough resume to dispel your fears here.

Those three defencemen are not #1 defencemen yet, it could change in one year but that's rather unlikely. Jones excelled as a young player in a tournament with a much lower talent level and mature players around him. Teams like Switzerland play with a system designed for international hockey to provide a cohesive team defensive effort... the Young Gunz and Euros will not have this shared common experience. Slovakia has a number one defenceman.

Chara who will be 38 by the time the tournament is going on?

No thanks but I would take Jones/Ekblad and Trouba over him at that stage, the tag of #1 Dman and NHL goalie is overblown here as these guys are in team and salary cap situations not lack of talent ones.

Once again, I don't like stupid change. The Canada Cup itself in 1976 was a change, and a great one. The NHL through Daly has also admitted that this tournament will be used as a means of getting the NHL out of the Olympics, so what you are saying is once again wrong. THere is every reason to hope that this tournament falls flat on its face.

Well there is a conflict between the NHL and the Olympics there, going to the summer games might help out but as much of a pain in the ass NHL head office is (and no one wants to get rid of Bettman more than me) the Olympic committee isn't free of controversy either and it' a game of chicken, nothing pure players or fans need to side allegiance to either side on IMO.

It's kind of a moot point anyways as the format of the 2 all star teams is for 2016 and it's going to go back to national ones in 2020

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/new-look-world-cup-of-hockey-back-for-2016/

I for one am really looking forward to the 2 "gimmick" teams much like the WHA, which would have been blasted on any HFboards back in the 70's had they been around.

sure the WHA ultimately failed but it made hockey a whole lot better too.

 

[FiLe]

That's exactly what we need more of teams trying not to lose a game and keep it clsoe so they can win on a lucky bounce.

I'd prefer to see actual talent compared to systems.

This reminds me of an old joke:

A house catches fire. Nobody's hurt, but by the time fire brigade gets there, the building's gonna burn to ground no matter what. Regardless, the guys go to work to minimize the damage.

After all is done, the fire chief visits the scene, looks around and finally states,

"Guys, you doused it all wrong."

It's kind of a moot point anyways as the format of the 2 all star teams is for 2016 and it's going to go back to national ones in 2020

Or not. "It's expected." Just like the 2016 iteration was initially "expected" to not have the mickey mouse teams. Like I said, there's no reason to trust these dimwits until they actually make the right call. Or they pay one enough to act as their shill in the net.

 

[JackSlater]

That's exactly what we need more of teams trying not to lose a game and keep it clsoe so they can win on a lucky bounce.

I'd prefer to see actual talent compared to systems.

I thought you wanted to see competitive teams. Teams that lack talent can only compete through an effective system. The European Leftovers and the Young Gunz can't compete with the top teams based on talent, and they are very unlikely to utilize a competitive system. They won't be competitive, which is the first reason you said you wanted them involved... other than being a "rebel" by buying what the NHL is selling hook, line and sinker.

Both Gibson and Hellebuyck have a big enough resume to dispel your fears here.

No... stating that doesn't make it so. They still lack experience against top level competition, unlike any of their competitors.

Chara who will be 38 by the time the tournament is going on?

No thanks but I would take Jones/Ekblad and Trouba over him at that stage, the tag of #1 Dman and NHL goalie is overblown here as these guys are in team and salary cap situations not lack of talent ones.

Well, you're in the vast minority there. I'm not even a big Chara fan (and I do like Jones quite a bit) but I tend to prefer my number one defenceman to have some experience actually being a number one defencemen against elite players.

Well there is a conflict between the NHL and the Olympics there, going to the summer games might help out but as much of a pain in the ass NHL head office is (and no one wants to get rid of Bettman more than me) the Olympic committee isn't free of controversy either and it' a game of chicken, nothing pure players or fans need to side allegiance to either side on IMO.

It's kind of a moot point anyways as the format of the 2 all star teams is for 2016 and it's going to go back to national ones in 2020

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/new-look-world-cup-of-hockey-back-for-2016/

I for one am really looking forward to the 2 "gimmick" teams much like the WHA, which would have been blasted on any HFboards back in the 70's had they been around.

sure the WHA ultimately failed but it made hockey a whole lot better too.

Supposedly these teams will be gone... which basically already demonstrates that the NHL itself knows this isn't a good idea. As far as your irrelevant comparison of the NHL and the WHA, once again the issue isn't change. The issue is stupid change. The WHA was a rival professional hockey league for the NHL. This tournament has no rival, since I can't think of any other tournament that features some national teams and other non-national teams. The comparison would be appropriate if the WHA resorted to random stupid gimmicks like a team composed of U23 players.

 

[Canuckistani]

I thought you wanted to see competitive teams. Teams that lack talent can only compete through an effective system. The European Leftovers and the Young Gunz can't compete with the top teams based on talent, and they are very unlikely to utilize a competitive system. They won't be competitive, which is the first reason you said you wanted them involved...

The entire NHL rationale for this joke is a complete lie. The Slovaks and Swiss can compete just fine, and their mickey mouse replacements will not be able to because of both a lack of talent and (most importantly) a lack of motivation.

The real reason is purely to get as much NHL talent on the ice at all costs. They'd just easily have gone with Team Veterinarian or Team Left-Handed if it guaranteed Kopitar and the kids a spot.

Supposedly these teams will be gone... which basically already demonstrates that the NHL itself knows this isn't a good idea.

I find this contradiction fascinating.

"The idea is great! It's exciting, it's new, and it promises an even playing field....but don't worry, it won't be back!"

Huh?

 

[Hardyvan123]

I thought you wanted to see competitive teams. Teams that lack talent can only compete through an effective system. The European Leftovers and the Young Gunz can't compete with the top teams based on talent, and they are very unlikely to utilize a competitive system. They won't be competitive, which is the first reason you said you wanted them involved... other than being a "rebel" by buying what the NHL is selling hook, line and sinker.

Look I want good high skilled competitive hockey and the U23 and Rest of Europe can play that style and do that much better than Latvia and Switzerland can plain and simple.

No... stating that doesn't make it so. They still lack experience against top level competition, unlike any of their competitors.

Gibson and other U23 goalies have plenty of experience in the WHC and World juniors and have excelled in the AHL as well but yes Ken Dryden didn't have any experience either and we see how that turned out.

Well, you're in the vast minority there. I'm not even a big Chara fan (and I do like Jones quite a bit) but I tend to prefer my number one defenceman to have some experience actually being a number one defencemen against elite players.

Look Chara will be 38 and is already sliding off the cliff, he is a very big defensive Dman a but has lost alot of his offensive game, most here after the 2015-16 season would take any or maybe even all 3 of Jones/Ekblad/Trouba over him and heck I'll go out on a limb and say all 3 easily.

Let's do a poll after the 15-16 season shall we?

Heck Jones won the best Dman at age 19 at the WHC 2 years ago is he worse now or something?

I think Ekblad might be a bit over hyped, in that he isn't really a serious Norris candidate for 15-16 but that being said he would kill Chara in a "who is going to be better in 15-16 poll on the HOH board (to weed out all of the prospect loving guys on the main boards)

Supposedly these teams will be gone... which basically already demonstrates that the NHL itself knows this isn't a good idea. As far as your irrelevant comparison of the NHL and the WHA, once again the issue isn't change. The issue is stupid change. The WHA was a rival professional hockey league for the NHL. This tournament has no rival, since I can't think of any other tournament that features some national teams and other non-national teams. The comparison would be appropriate if the WHA resorted to random stupid gimmicks like a team composed of U23 players.

Frankly I'd rather see the U23 and "rest of Europe going forward, I guess I can hope that the Swiss continue to make gains and get better.

 

[Canuckistani]

Look I want good high skilled competitive hockey and the U23 and Rest of Europe can play that style and do that much better than Latvia and Switzerland can plain and simple.

The #7 and #8 seeds in the NHL playoffs rarely win the Stanley Cup so let's replace them with All-star teams.

 

[Hardyvan123]

The #7 and #8 seeds in the NHL playoffs rarely win the Stanley Cup so let's replace them with All-star teams.

This is taken from Elliotte Friedman in his 30 thought a while back

Let’s start with some trivia.

Go back to the fall of the Soviet Union, when countries like Belarus and Latvia began entering their own teams in hockey tournaments. We’re talking the last 29 major international events where top players could compete: every World Championship since 1993, five Olympic Games and two World Cups.

There were 116 semifinalists. How many of those spots were filled by one of The Big Six — Canada, Czech Republic, Finland, Russia, Sweden and the United States?

The answer is 107, or 92 per cent. The exceptions were Slovakia (five appearances), Switzerland (two), Belarus and Germany (one apiece). The Slovaks were the only ones to win gold, at the 2002 Worlds.

So, when the NHL decides to mix it up at the soon-to-be-announced 2016 World Cup, you can understand the theory. Those six will fill 75 per cent of the spots, with “the rest of Europe†and a North American Under-23 Team filling the final two positions.

Like I mentioned in the other thread at least 1 NHL 8Th conference seed has won the SC and some more have made the semifinals.

Your example of trying to draw a comp here is poor and weak, the tournament is an NHL exhibition tournament, not part of the IIHF or the NHL regular season or playoffs.

 

[Canuckistani]

There were 116 semifinalists. How many of those spots were filled by one of The Big Six — Canada, Czech Republic, Finland, Russia, Sweden and the United States?

The answer is 107, or 92 per cent. The exceptions were Slovakia (five appearances), Switzerland (two), Belarus and Germany (one apiece). The Slovaks were the only ones to win gold, at the 2002 Worlds.

So, when the NHL decides to mix it up at the soon-to-be-announced 2016 World Cup, you can understand the theory. Those six will fill 75 per cent of the spots, with “the rest of Europe†and a North American Under-23 Team filling the final two positions.

So using that "logic" the FIFA World Cup should only consist of Argentina, Brazil, Italy, Germany, Spain, England, Uruguay and France - the only nations to ever win one - plus maybe a handful of finalists over the years. There's obviously no need for 32 teams, and certainly not any from Asia or Africa.

Hockey already has only eight competitive nations (plus maybe 3-4 others than can have the odd good game against a top team). So why in God's name would anyone seek to deplete an already shallow pool of nations of eliminating two of them? How does this "grow the game?"

 

[JackSlater]

Look I want good high skilled competitive hockey and the U23 and Rest of Europe can play that style and do that much better than Latvia and Switzerland can plain and simple.

I have no doubt that they will be more skilled teams than the alternatives, but once again, more skilled does not mean more competitive. These two gimmick teams will not be competitive. They will play more open hockey (and thus are more likely to get blown out) so that's a plus I guess.

Gibson and other U23 goalies have plenty of experience in the WHC and World juniors and have excelled in the AHL as well but yes Ken Dryden didn't have any experience either and we see how that turned out.

I don't think we need to get into why WJC experience isn't a big deal at a supposedly best on best tournament, and I have to question whether one appearance each qualifies as "plenty" of WHC experience.

Dryden is a terrible example as he looked bad in the Summit Series, and that was with a team of most of Canada's best (a far cry from the U23 team) in front of him. Not to mention that Dryden had a season as an NHL starter under his belt and... oh yeah, won the Conn Smythe in addition to the Stanley Cup.

Look Chara will be 38 and is already sliding off the cliff, he is a very big defensive Dman a but has lost alot of his offensive game, most here after the 2015-16 season would take any or maybe even all 3 of Jones/Ekblad/Trouba over him and heck I'll go out on a limb and say all 3 easily.

Let's do a poll after the 15-16 season shall we?

Heck Jones won the best Dman at age 19 at the WHC 2 years ago is he worse now or something?

I think Ekblad might be a bit over hyped, in that he isn't really a serious Norris candidate for 15-16 but that being said he would kill Chara in a "who is going to be better in 15-16 poll on the HOH board (to weed out all of the prospect loving guys on the main boards)

As I said I'm no Chara fan and I agree about his decline, but this is a guy who has been an elite number one defenceman at the highest levels of hockey. The U23 team lacks any legitimate #1 defencemen (arguably Chara is nearly in the same boat) but also lack anyone with experience in that role. None of those defencemen have any experience playing as a top defenceman in the playoffs or a tournament where countries have access to anything resembling their best players.

Frankly I'd rather see the U23 and "rest of Europe going forward, I guess I can hope that the Swiss continue to make gains and get better.

Well, best of luck and I hope that you can enjoy the tournament just as much as I cannot.

 

[Chara-3]

According to Slovak sources Reindl will be the president, Miro Satan the GM and Krueger the coach.

Probably to make sure Slovaks and Swiss don't boycott it. Satan is the most respected person in Slovak hockey. I can't imagine Hossa or Gaborik saying NO to him.

 

[FiLe]

Probably to make sure Slovaks and Swiss don't boycott it. Satan is the most respected person in Slovak hockey. I can't imagine Hossa or Gaborik saying NO to him.

Though this begs the question, why didn't Satan say no to the job? After all, being part of Team Leftovers is not just demeaning to the Slovak players expected to participate, but Slovakian hockey as a whole.

 

[Aceonfire*]

I don't get why I keep seeing the same posters go on and on about how stupid this tournament is in the roster threads..

If you don't like it, don't watch. Why bother derailing roster discussions if you don't care? It's confusing.

This isn't the Olympics. The NHL wants to show of their product. Not a bunch of unknowns from Slovakia or Germany.

Is it gimmicky? Absolutely. But it'll be fun to watch.

 

[Gaps]

I don't get why I keep seeing the same posters go on and on about how stupid this tournament is in the roster threads..

If you don't like it, don't watch. Why bother derailing roster discussions if you don't care? It's confusing.

This isn't the Olympics. The NHL wants to show of their product. Not a bunch of unknowns from Slovakia or Germany.

Is it gimmicky? Absolutely. But it'll be fun to watch.

Because the NHL is planning on this abomination replacing Olympic hockey. This tournament is a test and I will for my part keep on making noise and trying to make them see that their experiment is a miserable failure. Not watching is a given, but not saying anything about it online is not an option.

Have fun, hope you still like this circus when Olympic hockey the way we know it is gone.

 

[slovakiasnextone]

Probably to make sure Slovaks and Swiss don't boycott it. Satan is the most respected person in Slovak hockey. I can't imagine Hossa or Gaborik saying NO to him.

Well, Hossa or Gaborik wouldn't say no to him, but there was the matter of that whole Satan vs. Chara feud...

 

[mattihp]

Have fun, hope you still like this circus when Olympic hockey the way we know it is gone.

Will the canadian hockey federation be content with being ranked 4th-5th in the world?

I bet only one olympic tournament will be without NHLers and then it is back....

 

[JackSlater]

Will the canadian hockey federation be content with being ranked 4th-5th in the world?

I bet only one olympic tournament will be without NHLers and then it is back....

Very few people in Canada care at all (or even know) about the IIHF's rankings.

 

[mattihp]

Very few people in Canada care at all (or even know) about the IIHF's rankings.

I bet the federation does... Junior hockey etc. gets ALOT OF money from the government. Which will base its funds to hockey on international performance. If the Brandon Converys, Jamie Rams etc. of the world are once again the best Canada can muster... It will show in every level of hockey.

 

[1Gold Standard]

I bet the federation does... Junior hockey etc. gets ALOT OF money from the government. Which will base its funds to hockey on international performance. If the Brandon Converys, Jamie Rams etc. of the world are once again the best Canada can muster... It will show in every level of hockey.

I'll have to look it up again, but government funding to Hockey Canada amounts to something no more than 5% of their annual budget. the vast majority of Hockey Canada's funds are derived from marketing, corporate sponsors and event hosting...


Those government funding agencies couldn't care less about the IIHF rankings. They fund so that a Canadian sport governing body can deliver to Canadians the opportunity to participate in the game in some manner.

 

[Elvs]

This isn't the Olympics. The NHL wants to show of their product. Not a bunch of unknowns from Slovakia or Germany.

Unknown to you, not to everyone else. Both Slovakia and Switzerland have nearly 20 players signed to NHL contracts making them part of the NHLPA, let them use them and fill in the few remaining holes with players from Europe. Then at least it would be an international tournament.