WC: 2016 Team USA

[kabidjan18]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1831645&page=19

Go back and read last years thread trying to get players, it's not easy. Not to mention, there are a lot of NHL players that the US could invite, that wouldn't be as useful in this tournament as players playing in Europe, and the really really good college players. Austin Matthews as an example, is probably better than more 75% of the forwards for the US in the NHL.

Not to mention, there are lots of skilled USA players playing in Europe, that understand the big ice, and are a lot more useful than say a Hendricks (last years captain) at scoring goals or defending.

Your argument is better made switching the order of your two points. First, European players and college players are better than 75% of American NHL players, second, of those 25% it is difficult to get players. The other way around I would have a field day mentioning all the players who never get invited or only get invited once.

For point one I've ever bought the whole big ice deal but it's a valid argument. For the second, I never claimed it was easy, however if it is assumed that NHL players are de facto better it is obvious that USA Hockey does not go to all extents possible to get the best team possible.

The thing is that all the depth charts below are NHL stacked depth charts, Matthews being the only consistent exception and a few had Connor, a few had Lasch, I think one had Vesey but there are going to be at least a half dozen more than that. I put out my guesses, if you don't like one then volunteer your own. All in all I still don't buy that USA Hockey chooses college kids, AHL guys and euro guys because they're more suited to the big ice but we believe what we each believe.

 

[therealdeal]

Your argument is better made switching the order of your two points. First, European players and college players are better than 75% of American NHL players, second, of those 25% it is difficult to get players. The other way around I would have a field day mentioning all the players who never get invited or only get invited once.

For point one I've ever bought the whole big ice deal but it's a valid argument. For the second, I never claimed it was easy, however if it is assumed that NHL players are de facto better it is obvious that USA Hockey does not go to all extents possible to get the best team possible.

The thing is that all the depth charts below are NHL stacked depth charts, Matthews being the only consistent exception and a few had Connor, a few had Lasch, I think one had Vesey but there are going to be at least a half dozen more than that. I put out my guesses, if you don't like one then volunteer your own. All in all I still don't buy that USA Hockey chooses college kids, AHL guys and euro guys because they're more suited to the big ice but we believe what we each believe.

Which players do you see year to year not get invited that you think should be getting invited? That's an honest question. Take last year as an example. Which players that were not invited were better than the players taken from Europe/College or better than players that were invited from the NHL and accepted.

 

[Xokkeu]

A Canada-U.S. final would be ideal.

Matthews is at home in Arizona resting before heading out to join the NTDP in Michigan and then off to the WHC.

Matthews, Gaudreau, Eichel vs McDavid and friends.....

 

[Rabid Ranger]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1831645&page=19

Go back and read last years thread trying to get players, it's not easy. Not to mention, there are a lot of NHL players that the US could invite, that wouldn't be as useful in this tournament as players playing in Europe, and the really really good college players. Austin Matthews as an example, is probably better than more 75% of the forwards for the US in the NHL.

Not to mention, there are lots of skilled USA players playing in Europe, that understand the big ice, and are a lot more useful than say a Hendricks (last years captain) at scoring goals or defending.

I get what you're saying here but Hendricks was actually very good for the U.S. at last year's tournament. He's one of those 4th line types that can play up in a lineup and not be out of place. He's also got strong leadership skills.

 

[therealdeal]

I get what you're saying here but Hendricks was actually very good for the U.S. at last year's tournament. He's one of those 4th line types that can play up in a lineup and not be out of place. He's also got strong leadership skills.

Totally, I agree totally, it wasn't meant to be a shot against Hendricks, and also props to the guy for going, I tried to emphasize that as I mentioned scoring goals in the next bit, but I can understand how it probably came across poorly.

 

[kabidjan18]

Which players do you see year to year not get invited that you think should be getting invited? That's an honest question. Take last year as an example. Which players that were not invited were better than the players taken from Europe/College or better than players that were invited from the NHL and accepted.

Well, I think it's easy to forget because of a few outliers (cough cough, Jack Eichel) that players who do decently well in college are not necessarily better than many NHL players (if you want examples I can lend a few, Kyle Baun for starters). Neither is it always true that a good AHL player is better than many NHL players. We can look at last year's goalies. Alex Lyon, Jack Campbell and Connor Hellebuyck. Lyon has continued being a good goalie in the NCAA, however, there is no guarantee and never has been that he will be a star NHL goalie. Jack Campbell played 7 games in the ECHL last season and increased that to 20 this season. People here are already mentioning Condon, Anderson, Kinkaid, but Campbell was an ECHL goalie, and Lyon has never played a paid game, what about Alex Stalock, did he turn us down? Did Jeff Zatkoff turn us down? What about Richard Bachman or Phoenix Copley? Garrett Sparks as well? Did they turn us down too? They may not even be NHL mainstays but at least they're better than a part-time ECHL goalie and a goalie who's never played a paid game. Steve Moses sure proved he was better than Ian Cole. I didn't read all the posts from last year's HF did we get turned down by John-Michael Liles? No offense to Mike Reilly but even this year he's still mostly an AHL guy. We don't need to get too caught up in just last year though. What about Mike Brown, is he really worse than a Andy Miele, Drew Shore, Vincent Trocheck? There's an uncanny valley of players who don't get invited because they're not young and exciting, they're old news, but they're not stars either and thus not in high demand. Also, Team USA often rotates through the league to get everyone a chance to play in the WC once, so many players have played in only one WC and never again but that doesn't mean they're bad, it's just not their turn anymore. There's reason, good reason as a matter of fact why they're not invited however that does not mean that we ice the best team possible every year outside of a few rejections, we simply don't invite people who fall into the uncanny valley.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

Yep, no need to try harder. Someone earlier was mocking last year's team but what's better than good? Good enough.

You're still trying to tell me that around 130 players every year turn down invitations such that only 15 players can play, not to mention AHL players, USA Hockey doesn't send the best American players to the WC every year and they don't need to. They send sensations like Eichel for some positive press, they send young players, older players.

Yah you nailed it, US Hockey does't try hard enough and they only send certain players for positive press

 

[kabidjan18]

Yah you nailed it, US Hockey does't try hard enough and they only send certain players for positive press

Yah if I write a sarcastic comment with no statistical backing and add a few cute emojis like a 5th grader then the other person is ridiculous.

I'm still trying to figure out what you exactly believe. Do you believe that USA hockey sends out around 130 invites to NHL players and anywhere from 116 too 118 of them come back as rejections from unpatriotic hockey players, and then USA hockey sends a couple dozen invitations to AHL players and only maybe 3 or 4 accept, so then they just have to "fill in the roster" with college students, fringe AHL/ECHL prospects and European players?

Or...do you believe that college students, European players, AND (because some have been conveniently ignoring this demographic) AHL players are better than NHL players?

 

[kabidjan18]

Which players do you see year to year not get invited that you think should be getting invited? That's an honest question. Take last year as an example. Which players that were not invited were better than the players taken from Europe/College or better than players that were invited from the NHL and accepted.

Rereading, I think I didn't address this question right, but I'll write a new one and not edit because the other one has information I don't want to retype later for other guys. In short, no one. The WC is a great tournament for giving youngsters a first shot at playing international hockey, playing with perhaps their future olympic teammates, some for the first time on big ice. It's great to tribute americans playing in Europe and give NHL/AHL players who will never be at the Olympics a chance to wear the stars and stripes. That's why you see all types there, college kids, AHL guys, and top NHL guys. It's intentionally not best on best, but it doesn't need to be because that's not the function of the tournament. I was just thinking we should be trying to guess who's all gonna be there though because it won't just be NHL players plus Matthews.

 

[1Gold Standard]

Matthews, Gaudreau, Eichel vs McDavid and friends.....

McDavid Monahan and Mackinnon better than your 3. Let's get this show on the road.

In all seriousness, all I ever hope for is an all N. American final in Europe to really piss the dentist off.

I'd just enjoy that game with a case of Molson some burgers on the grill... and I'd say the outcome is unimportant, but a 6-5 Canada win in OT would do.

 

[Bear12Good]

McDavid Monahan and Mackinnon better than your 3. Let's get this show on the road.

In all seriousness, all I ever hope for is an all N. American final in Europe to really piss the dentist off.

I'd just enjoy that game with a case of Molson some burgers on the grill... and I'd say the outcome is unimportant, but a 6-5 Canada win in OT would do.

Russia will be in the final, if not get into Canada before

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

A Canada-U.S. final would be ideal.

Matthews is at home in Arizona resting before heading out to join the NTDP in Michigan and then off to the WHC.

In WHC? That is unheard of.

If Minnesota and Nashville drops, I think Finland has a good chance making to the finals again.

 

[1Gold Standard]

In WHC? That is unheard of.

If Minnesota and Nashville drops, I think Finland has a good chance making to the finals again.

you never know, miracles happen once every 40 years or so.

 

[Xokkeu]

McDavid Monahan and Mackinnon better than your 3. Let's get this show on the road.

In all seriousness, all I ever hope for is an all N. American final in Europe to really piss the dentist off.

I'd just enjoy that game with a case of Molson some burgers on the grill... and I'd say the outcome is unimportant, but a 6-5 Canada win in OT would do.

Mackinnon is out with a knee injury so probably questionable.

 

[1Gold Standard]

Mackinnon is out with a knee injury so probably questionable.

I'm aware! but I don't think it is so serious that it is threatening to put an end to his season. we'll see how it goes.

 

[Xokkeu]

I'm aware! but I don't think it is so serious that it is threatening to put an end to his season. we'll see how it goes.

My rule of thumb is any injury that makes a guy miss a game in March or April is probably serious enough to make him skip the worlds.

More so for Americans than Canadians but still applies

 

[1Gold Standard]

My rule of thumb is any injury that makes a guy miss a game in March or April is probably serious enough to make him skip the worlds.

More so for Americans than Canadians but still applies

I get your point. but last year Mackinnon didn't play a game after March 4th. So, until the end of his NHL commitment and a go or no go answer to Hockey Canada, I'm going with he's in for now. subject to change of course if there are updates to his status...but as far as I know, he isn't expected to miss too much more time. fingers crossed. He's still a developing player and developing players need to be playing in May for championships...playing until somebody tells him there are no more games to be played in the season.

 

[xxxx]

McDavid Monahan and Mackinnon better than your 3. Let's get this show on the road.

In all seriousness, all I ever hope for is an all N. American final in Europe to really piss the dentist off.

I'd just enjoy that game with a case of Molson some burgers on the grill... and I'd say the outcome is unimportant, but a 6-5 Canada win in OT would do.

I actually think this year might be it. I wish the US for once played with a real team that has some top players and very good depth, and I think this year could do it, in what could be one of the best US teams in the last decade. A team like this would have no problem reaching the gold-medal game:

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Gaudreau
Saad - Eichel - Wheeler
Van Riemsdyk - Matthews - Okposo
Zucker - Coyle - Palmieri

Faulk - E.Johnson
Gostisbehere - Jones
Leddy - Trouba
Gardiner

Good thing is that players like Pacioretty, Wheeler, Okposo, or Van Riemsdyk - players that might be questionable to get going - have already played at the world championships and answered the call in the past. It will be a good team. Not sure if as good as the one above, but I expect at least half of that roster, which is a good start.

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

I would not expect Pacioretty there. He's already on the World Cup team and he spent a huge chunk of last summer (from mid-July onwards) in rehab mode for a serious leg injury. Throw in the pressure of being the Captain of a team that collapsed like a house of cards and I would imagine he'll want a mental and physical break.

Also can't see JVR playing in that tournament when Toronto shut him down weeks ago.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

 

[tade]

Philadelphia & Minnesota in
Detroit & Colorado out

Johnny Gaudreau (22) - Alex Galchenyuk (22) - Brandon Saad (23)
Dylan Larkin (19) - Jack Eichel (19) - Kyle Palmieri (25)
Nick Foligno (28) - Auston Matthews (18) - Cam Atkinson (26)
J.T. Compher (20) - Brandon Dubinsky (29) - Drew Stafford (30)
Jimmy Vesey (22)

Danny DeKeyser (26) - Justin Faulk (24)
Jake Gardiner (25) - Erik Johnson (28)
Noah Hanifin (19) - Seth Jones (21)
Connor Murphy (22)

Connor Hellebuyck (22)
Jimmy Howard (31)
Alex Lyon (23)

It would be very young team... average age 23.6.

 

[ValeriKamensky]

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Ryan
Gaudreau - Matthews - Wheeler
Nick Foligno - Eichel - Palmiery
Maroon - Dubinsky - Atkinson

Bogosyan - Gardiner
Gostisbehere - E.Johnson
Hanifin - Jones

Hellibuyck
Howard

Its roster can be if Flyers dont win wild card

 

[Xokkeu]

Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Ryan
Gaudreau - Matthews - Wheeler
Nick Foligno - Eichel - Palmiery
Maroon - Dubinsky - Atkinson

Bogosyan - Gardiner
Gostisbehere - E.Johnson
Hanifin - Jones

Hellibuyck
Howard

Its roster can be if Flyers dont win wild card

Ryan is already out.

Johnson I doubt accepts but maybe. Ditto Howard and Wheeler based on the past.

 

[1Gold Standard]

Philadelphia & Minnesota in
Detroit & Colorado out

Johnny Gaudreau (22) - Alex Galchenyuk (22) - Brandon Saad (23)
Dylan Larkin (19) - Jack Eichel (19) - Kyle Palmieri (25)
Nick Foligno (28) - Auston Matthews (18) - Cam Atkinson (26)
J.T. Compher (20) - Brandon Dubinsky (29) - Drew Stafford (30)
Jimmy Vesey (22)

Danny DeKeyser (26) - Justin Faulk (24)
Jake Gardiner (25) - Erik Johnson (28)
Noah Hanifin (19) - Seth Jones (21)
Connor Murphy (22)

Connor Hellebuyck (22)
Jimmy Howard (31)
Alex Lyon (23)

It would be very young team... average age 23.6.

very young and very good team, but I'd still leave a few spots open for players making an early PO exit, i.e. Gostisbehere. I know you're a Philly fan and don't want to think of it, but Philly isn't doing **** against Washington except maybe win 1 game. Add I still think adding Moses from SKA is worth another shot...you have 25 roster spots, so why not give it a try.

but I like the looks of that team and hopefully it happens.

 

[Urbanskog]

A Canada-U.S. final would be ideal.

That is something that you say about practically every international tournament.