GDT: 2016 Olympic talk

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I don't think anyone has confirmed, her included, that she is transgender?

I never heard the term transgender either.I don't know how reliable the source is that I read but the article claimed that she was tested due to her times getting drastically better. They found that her testosterone levels were a bit higher than average for a woman. The article went on to claim she was born a hermaphrodite but it's obvious she identifies as a woman. Apparently it's been said testosterone doesn't actually help women that much performance wise.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I was with a group where the Olympics was on and one of my friends called her Transgender and I accepted his statement at face value as I wasn't aware of her until that race last night. Sounds like he, and thus I, was misinformed.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

http://deadspin.com/the-debate-about-caster-semenya-isnt-about-fairness-1785355953

It's not fair that Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell were seven feet tall. It gave them an unfair advantage on the basketball court.

It's not fair that Usain Bolt is 6'5". It gives him an unfair advantage on the track.

Read Diana Moskovitz's excellent piece and then reach your own conclusions.

 

[The Stranger]

I don't think anyone has confirmed, her included, that she is transgender?

Caster Semenya was subject of a gender test. The findings were that Caster had no womb or ovaries and that Caster had un-descended testicles. So transgender probably isn't the right term. Instead maybe Caster is intersex.

I never heard the term transgender either.I don't know how reliable the source is that I read but the article claimed that she was tested due to her times getting drastically better. They found that her testosterone levels were a bit higher than average for a woman. The article went on to claim she was born a hermaphrodite but it's obvious she identifies as a woman. Apparently it's been said testosterone doesn't actually help women that much performance wise.

Women testosterone levels are 10-90
Men testosterone levels are 300-1200
Caster's unregulated testosterone level is 300

So Caster's level is 3 times higher than the high-end range for a woman or right at the normal low-end range for man.

This elevated level of testosterone is a huge advantage in the 800. Semenya went from dominating the field at 18 with unregulated testosterone, to then being subject to testosterone blockers and not qualifying finals, to now again being unregulated and dominating.

 

[The Stranger]

It's not fair that Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell were seven feet tall. It gave them an unfair advantage on the basketball court.

It's not fair that Usain Bolt is 6'5". It gives him an unfair advantage on the track.

This is a straw man argument.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

This is a straw man argument.

It's not at all a straw man argument. It's the heart of the argument.

 

[GoldiFox]

Could just allow all women to take testosterone and compete if they want. Either it does or doesn't improve performance, right?

 

[Navin R Slavin]

And I absolutely cannot understand the basis of any argument that prohibits performance enhancing drugs, while at the same time *mandating* performance inhibiting drugs.

 

[The Stranger]

Either it does or doesn't improve performance, right?

It does.

And I absolutely cannot understand the basis of any argument that prohibits performance enhancing drugs, while at the same time *mandating* performance inhibiting drugs.

My understanding is that there is currently no mandate for testosterone blockers.

An intersex individual with testicles and 3 times the testosterone as the highest women is now allowed to compete as a woman with no hormonal blockers.

However, if one of the women competing were to take steroids and raise her testosterone levels to that of Semenya, she would be disqualified for doping.

 

[GoldiFox]

I guess the main question would be "Why are Men's and Women's events to begin with?". Why not just have one event with Men and Women and see who comes out on top. The best athlete is the best athlete, no questions about it.

If the main argument is for separation in order to create a more level-playing field, and the primary driver of the disparity in strength and speed is testosterone, then I think it is fair to ask the question of what race an individual would be qualified for with these type of extenuating circumstances. An argument comparing this to a male athlete being genetically taller falls apart, IMO, when you consider this is forced segregation of athletes into two gender classes in order to create a more level playing field. It conceivably undermines the whole reason the separation was implemented in the first place.

 

[RodTheBawd]

Caster Semenya was subject of a gender test. The findings were that Caster had no womb or ovaries and that Caster had un-descended testicles. So transgender probably isn't the right term. Instead maybe Caster is intersex.



Women testosterone levels are 10-90
Men testosterone levels are 300-1200
Caster's unregulated testosterone level is 300

So Caster's level is 3 times higher than the high-end range for a woman or right at the normal low-end range for man.

This elevated level of testosterone is a huge advantage in the 800. Semenya went from dominating the field at 18 with unregulated testosterone, to then being subject to testosterone blockers and not qualifying finals, to now again being unregulated and dominating.

I've been on the fence, trying to be understanding of both sides, but seeing it laid out like this is pretty tough...

It's not at all a straw man argument. It's the heart of the argument.

You're smarter than that, Hank...

 

[HisIceness]

Well, it's over folks.

 

[raynman]

I would not mind going to the Tokyo games. Anthony Bourdain's Parts Unknown Tokyo episode was absolutely nuts and I've been wanting to go since. Japan is the type of place you probably need a really long time to explore though.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I would not mind going to the Tokyo games. Anthony Bourdain's Parts Unknown Tokyo episode was absolutely nuts and I've been wanting to go since. Japan is the type of place you probably need a really long time to explore though.

I spent a week there this spring, but was on business so only had a couple days do to some exploring. Was very surprised by how much I liked it and definitely plan on going back on a vacation. I was there when the cherry blossoms were in full bloom and the weather was perfect. The food was incredible, especially if you enjoy sushi and/or other seafood and the culture and history is very interesting.

 

[raynman]

I spent a week there this spring, but was on business so only had a couple days do to some exploring. Was very surprised by how much I liked it and definitely plan on going back on a vacation. I was there when the cherry blossoms were in full bloom and the weather was perfect. The food was incredible, especially if you enjoy sushi and/or other seafood and the culture and history is very interesting.

My dad was stationed over in Japan/South Korea until I was about 5, I'm 31 now. I remember a few things but we have a bunch of pictures of places they went to with family that visited. Also a couple of walking sticks from when my dad climbed Mt Fuji. He passed away a long time ago but it'd be neat to visit some of the same places they did.

 

[StormCast]

I would not mind going to the Tokyo games. Anthony Bourdain's Parts Unknown Tokyo episode was absolutely nuts and I've been wanting to go since. Japan is the type of place you probably need a really long time to explore though.

Totally insane time he had over there, definitely memorable (for the viewer).

I'd like to bar hop and sing karaoke with Scarlett Johansson in Tokyo.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

So I'm a bit confused on this Lochte thing, but I'm guessing I don't have all the facts, and I surely don't understand Brazilian law. He's now being charged with filing a false robbery report, but I thought early on, one of the reasons they were suspicious is because they never went to the Police and never filed a police report? Also, i've seen reports that they did not really "vandalize" the bathrooms but pissed behind the bathroom and ripped down a poster?

Is this some Brazilian authority trying for his 15 min. of fame or just trying to extort money (reportedly, the other swimmer paid $11K to a Brazilian charity to avoid prosecution) or is there something here?

Again, only been following this loosely so don't have all the facts but it just seems odd.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

So I'm a bit confused on this Lochte thing, but I'm guessing I don't have all the facts, and I surely don't understand Brazilian law. He's now being charged with filing a false robbery report, but I thought early on, one of the reasons they were suspicious is because they never went to the Police and never filed a police report? Also, i've seen reports that they did not really "vandalize" the bathrooms but pissed behind the bathroom and ripped down a poster?

Is this some Brazilian authority trying for his 15 min. of fame or just trying to extort money (reportedly, the other swimmer paid $11K to a Brazilian charity to avoid prosecution) or is there something here?

Again, only been following this loosely so don't have all the facts but it just seems odd.

Brazil is just trying to remind the world they still exist after the Olympics are done. The whole Lochte thing is SOOOOOO overplayed. They did exactly what you said, then did indeed have guns pointed at them and money demanded. The story was embellished, certainly....but who gives a rip.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The reason I ask, is here is my understanding of the situation (and I very well could have the facts wrong).

1) There were reports of the swimmers being robbed. A day later, Lochte, on camera said he was robbed.
2) They never filed a police report. So that's why I am asking how they can be charged with filing a false report, when "reportedly", they never filed one. In fact, my understanding is Lochte never spoke to the police.
3) The police came out and said they vandalized a bathroom breaking a mirror, tearing down a soap dispenser, and the security guards (not on duty police) forced them to pay.
4) Video later came out and they never went in the bathroom, but instead urinated behind it and ripped a poster/sign off the wall. Pictures the next day show there was no damage to the mirror or soap dispenser and the police's own security footage never showed them in the bathroom. Witnesses and the swimmers say one of the security guards indeed pointed a gun at them.
5) Lochte was back in the US before authorities could question him, but one of the swimmers was "forced" to pay $11K to avoid prosecution.

 

[Sens1Canes2]

Here's a good read.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmac...xcessive-force-and-intimidation/#45e050fe67c3

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Here's a good read.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmac...xcessive-force-and-intimidation/#45e050fe67c3

Thanks for the link S1C2. The opening paragraph sums it up pretty well.

 

[HisIceness]

It's right on the money, that opening line.