2016 Draft Thread | 7

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Trelane

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Draft Expert NHL Central Scouting was just on 1040. Here are some of the points.

- If Canucks draft in the 2 spot they should take Puljujarvi. Compares him to Jamie Benn. More all around than Laine. Can kill penalties, pp1 and check the other teams best players.

- Laine is fantastic but is one dimensional at this point of development. . Compared him to Rick Nash.

- Likes Juolevi a lot. Thinks he has the highest ceiling out of all Dmen. Would not be surprised if Juolevi gets drafted in top 5.

- In order , he likes these Dmen in top 10. Juolevi , Sergschev, Chychrun.

- Thinks Sergachev is a work horse , who can skate, booming shot and nastiness. Physical as well. Reminds him of Mathias Ohlund.

- lots of concerns about Tyler Benson. Lots of scouts thinks his injuries will effect his game moving forward. He thinks Benson will be picked mid 2nd rnd. Likes his work ethic and frame.

Like Pulju too. He'll be a coach's player and I don't mind doing with a little less flash.

Would rather Nucks take Tkachuk before Juolevi and use 33 and 63 on D. Most likely picking 5th or 4th and given Benning's and Aquaman's pronouncements on the matter that's who I expect us to draft if we don't win. But if he's gone and we're drafting in the latter slots I fear a Juolevi or Bean reach job.

If so I'll need convincing that Bean can become an elite or at least better than average skater. :help:

Also could get rough around here if TO ends up 4th, just ahead of us, and passes on the London kids while we nab one. It will be Benning v the Hunters and it's a foregone conclusion that JB ain't winning the "genius" designation on hfboards.
 

ahmon

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If Nylander and Tkachuk are on the same level but I believe Nylander has more game changing potential then Tkachuk wouldn't it make sense I rank Nylander in a slightly better tier then Tkachuk. I've already said that I believe that 4-13 are all around the same level. I just prefer Nylander.

The difference from 4-13 isn't that much for me. If you are picking outside of the top 3 but in the top 15 you are going to get a great prospect. The drop off of talent in this years draft is around 15. I can see the top 15 of this draft being equally as good as the top 15 in 2013. However, the later rounds lack the depth that 2013 had.

I just don't like how the default reason for ranking Tkachuk lower is how he is "carried" by his linemates. While Marner is clearly the most talented player on that line, I find Tkachuk creates a lot for the line.

It's fair if you think Nylander has a higher offensive upside. For example, Nylander is certainly a superior stickhandler.
 

racerjoe

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Yeah.

I'd fully expect Tkachuk to equal or surpass Nylander's point totals were their teams/situations flipped. I'd actually expect Nylander to have more trouble matching what Tkachuk has done production-wise with London...as i don't think he'd be as perfect a fit with Marner and Co. and may have simply ended up anchoring a 2nd Unit. :dunno:

While i get that some people are a bit wary of Tkachuk's raw numbers due to playing with a pair of extremely good Junior players...it's not like Nylander, or even Dubois are playing with total scrubs.

And at the end of the day, any of these guys - Tkachuk, Nylander, Dubois, etc...if you're drafting them that high, you're hoping they're going to ultimately be good, skilled Top-6 Forwards - who continue to play with other highly skilled offensive players, like Dvorak/Marner, or McLeod, or Svechnikov, etc.

I've said it before, but for me...being able to mesh extremely well with all sorts of different high skill linemates is a plus for a guy like Tkachuk, not a minus. :dunno:

I haven't seen a lot of him, so take this with a grain of salt, but I have him a bit lower because I don't think he is a guy that drives the line vs others who do. that line really goes as Marner does, from what I have seen. You are correct that it's a plus for him to play and thrive with talent, but he seems like a burrows more than Hank-esque (not trying to actually compare styles there). I really want a play driver where we are picking. I don't think Tkachuk is that. He may be our best prospect if we drafted him though.
 

WTG

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I just don't like how the default reason for ranking Tkachuk lower is how he is "carried" by his linemates. While Marner is clearly the most talented player on that line, I find Tkachuk creates a lot for the line.

It's fair if you think Nylander has a higher offensive upside. For example, Nylander is certainly a superior stickhandler.

It's all my personal opinion anyway :laugh:

It's good to have your opinions challenged.


There is just something about his game that I just don't like. It's like Travis Sanheim. Everybody seems to love the guy but there is something about his game that just bugs me.

The thing about Nylander vs Tkachuk for me is that I just think Nylander has the ability to turn into a guy who can be that #1 player on the 1st line. Although he might be a long shot. With Tkachuk he's never really shown that he can be the one that stirs the drink. In the WJC he was playing with Matthews, in the OHL he's playing with Marner. But again, I do not think there is a huge difference between Nylander and Tkachuk. If you look at my rankings you might think that 4-5 spots is huge but I really don't think so. I feel a 9th round pick is almost as valuable as a 5th round pick in this draft. Just because the top 15 is so saturated with talent.
 

y2kcanucks

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It's all my personal opinion anyway :laugh:

It's good to have your opinions challenged.


There is just something about his game that I just don't like. It's like Travis Sanheim. Everybody seems to love the guy but there is something about his game that just bugs me.

The thing about Nylander vs Tkachuk for me is that I just think Nylander has the ability to turn into a guy who can be that #1 player on the 1st line. Although he might be a long shot. With Tkachuk he's never really shown that he can be the one that stirs the drink. In the WJC he was playing with Matthews, in the OHL he's playing with Marner. But again, I do not think there is a huge difference between Nylander and Tkachuk. If you look at my rankings you might think that 4-5 spots is huge but I really don't think so. I feel a 9th round pick is almost as valuable as a 5th round pick in this draft. Just because the top 15 is so saturated with talent.

Slightly OT, but what bugs me is when people rank McLeod over Nylander. To me that makes less sense than ranking Tkachuk above Nylander.
 

WTG

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Ok?

So you're just box score scouting and don't know much about the players themselves? Or do you have an actual legitimate comparison between Tkachuk and Gagner?

How much weight are you going to put into stats was my point.

Gangers numbers were inflated because he was playing with Kane. So he went from what should have been a top 15 pick to 6th overall.

I do not trust big numbers unless it is the prospect that is driving the offense. Tkachuk is not driving the offense Marner is. That is what scares me about Tkachuk. I do not believe Tkachuk is going to be a permanent fixture on your top line. Still a good top pick. But, if you are picking for who is going to be the best player then I would put several others in front of him.
 

Rotting Corpse*

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Its pretty amusing how mnay players in this draft have been compared to Benn and how many to Larkin.

So PLD Puljujarvi and Tkachuk are Benn while Jost and MacLeod are Larkin.

For me... PLD is an edgy Trevor Linden, Tkachuk is Bobby Ryan with a bite....Puljujarvi is like ...well...is there even a comparable? Jost reminds me of Bozak and MacLeod's Fisher comparison seems most applicable.

I think it's funny too. Last year Pulju was always compared to Kovalchuk. This year everyone is the next Jamie Benn.

Comparisons are fun but not really important. I'd be more interested in what sort of role they will play and what sort of production to expect.
 

Shareefruck

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Well Hansen minus the Sedins is not really an every-day top 6 forward so I'm reluctant to include him. Baertschi is fair and I only left him off because he didn't cement himself as a surefire top 6 F the way Hutton did as a top 4 D.

For the moment McCann and Virtanen are still legit question marks though I am hopeful both of them will get there. Tryamkin is probably comparable to these two but I feel he showed more in the KHL and his short NHL stint than the two 19 year olds.

Also it's not right to compare raw numbers. You need 50% more forwards (6) than defense (4) in these top 6/4 discussions. So in terms of raw numbers you need 2 extra forwards anyway.

I think it's debatable if the more pressing need is at F or D (personally I think it's at F) but that still supports a BPA strategy, rather than a positional focus.
Again, I agree with your actual sentiment about picking BPA, defensive need being over-prioritized/overstated, and that we have a massive need for top 1st line forwards (I disagree that top six forwards is the concern though), but I think the way you framed it initially was a bit disingenuous.

It's undeniable that even proportional to how many you need in each position, our defensive prospect depth is currently far weaker than our forward prospect depth.

The only young D we have right now who has the inside track on potentially being a core player is really just Hutton on an island by himself. Tryamkin is a nice story who can possibly sneak his way into the bare-minimum of that criteria if everything goes right for him and he surprises even more than he already has, and Subban/Stecher is a total longshot that we can't count on/pencil in in any capacity as well (to even make the NHL, period). We pretty much have noone behind those guys.

Horvat and Boeser, I would argue have as much potential/project just as well as Hutton does. But in addition to that, Baertschi and McCann, for the time being reliably project onto those roles. Virtanen is hit or miss, but will probably at least be a core third liner and very possibly be a bottom-end core top-sixer. That's five guys who at least look alright as a starting point that, one (or two) additional big pieces can conceivably complete.

If you hypothetically add Matthews to the mix, it's conceivable and perfectly within the realm of possibility that they've landed on the right group. I don't think the same argument can be made for adding Ekblad to our D pool.

Baertschi - Matthews - Boeser
McCann - Horvat - Virtanen

I would argue that Hansen is, at this point, a legitimate top six winger without the Sedins, especially given the current standards of the NHL. At the very least, he is a top-end 3rd liner with a game elevated to a degree that is every bit as important as a top six winger. I also think that Gaunce has a better chance of possibly turning into something than Subban/Stecher do.

Defense is still a far far cry from that. Even considering the ratio that you need, even being conservative, I think it's currently something closer to 3:1 in favor of our forward prospects rather than the 3:2 that you're suggesting would be ideal.

That said, I still agree with you that BPA is the way to go because the forward class is far superior to the D class, none of the defensive prospects are reliable/safe projections into that role, and Ds are easier to get in later rounds, and I personally believe that a #1 center that we don't currently have is an absolute prerequisite whereas a #1 defenseman may not be. I'm more comfortable contending with a "defense by committee w/ help from goaltending/coaching" group rather than a "scoring by committee without any star offensive players" group.

Given the choices, picking a forward is the obvious choice. However, I would say that if the choice is between a forward that we know for a fact is going to be a bottom end top sixer with zero 1st line potential vs. a bottom end top four defenseman with zero 1st pairing potential, I would go with the defenseman.
 
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ahmon

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It's all my personal opinion anyway :laugh:

It's good to have your opinions challenged.


There is just something about his game that I just don't like. It's like Travis Sanheim. Everybody seems to love the guy but there is something about his game that just bugs me.

The thing about Nylander vs Tkachuk for me is that I just think Nylander has the ability to turn into a guy who can be that #1 player on the 1st line. Although he might be a long shot. With Tkachuk he's never really shown that he can be the one that stirs the drink. In the WJC he was playing with Matthews, in the OHL he's playing with Marner. But again, I do not think there is a huge difference between Nylander and Tkachuk. If you look at my rankings you might think that 4-5 spots is huge but I really don't think so. I feel a 9th round pick is almost as valuable as a 5th round pick in this draft. Just because the top 15 is so saturated with talent.

Like I said, I don't mind if you like Nylander more than Tkachuk. But I just don't think the bolded is a fair reasoning.

It's not Tkachuk's fault that he gets overshadowed by Matthews/Marner - he doesn't pick his linemates, rather IMO it should be seen as a positive that Tkachuk would be slotted on the top line of a stacked USA team.

How much weight are you going to put into stats was my point.

Gangers numbers were inflated because he was playing with Kane. So he went from what should have been a top 15 pick to 6th overall.

I do not trust big numbers unless it is the prospect that is driving the offense. Tkachuk is not driving the offense Marner is. That is what scares me about Tkachuk. I do not believe Tkachuk is going to be a permanent fixture on your top line. Still a good top pick. But, if you are picking for who is going to be the best player then I would put several others in front of him.

There's just so many possible reasons why Gagner didn't develop.
Sam Gagner as a 18 year old put up 49 pts in the NHL - without Patrick Kane.
That's actually better than what Stamkos did in his first year.

So was Stamkos's junior stats inflated as well?

Now bringing it back to Tkachuk, I think you need to look at each prospect separately. Sam Gagner is much much different than Matthew Tkachuk.

Gagner is undersized, Tkachuk is not. If anything Tkachuk has very good size 6'1-1.5 and plays really well around the net and in traffic.

and if you really want to look at numbers (by no means do I only use stats to rate a player):

look how Gagner's goal scoring dropped in the playoffs for London, 16 game, 7 goals 22 assists.

Gagner hasn't broke 20 goals in the NHL.

On the other hand, Matthew Tkachuk has 14 goals 14 assists in 12 games.

If you watch them play its more evident, Gagner has trouble establishing himself in traffic where he's simply outmuscled and outpowered. Yet, hes not as slippery as Kane to create time and space on a consistent basis.

Matthew Tkachuk doesn't need to be slippery like a Kane, because he projects to be a forward who can win battles in front/around the net.
 

CanaFan

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Again, I agree with your actual sentiment about picking BPA, defensive need being over-prioritized/overstated, and that we have a massive need for top 1st line forwards (I disagree that top six forwards is the concern though), but I think the way you framed it initially was a bit disingenuous.

It's undeniable that even proportional to how many you need in each position, our defensive prospect depth is currently far weaker than our forward prospect depth.

The only young D we have right now who has the inside track on potentially being a core player is really just Hutton on an island by himself. Tryamkin is a nice story who can possibly sneak his way into the bare-minimum of that criteria if everything goes right for him and he surprises even more than he already has, and Subban/Stecher is a total longshot that we can't count on/pencil in in any capacity as well (to even make the NHL, period). We pretty much have noone behind those guys.

Horvat and Boeser, I would argue have as much potential/project just as well as Hutton does. But in addition to that, Baertschi and McCann, for the time being reliably project onto those roles. Virtanen is hit or miss, but will probably at least be a core third liner and very possibly be a bottom-end core top-sixer. That's five guys who at least look alright as a starting point that, one (or two) additional big pieces can conceivably complete.

If you hypothetically add Matthews to the mix, it's conceivable and perfectly within the realm of possibility that they've landed on the right group. I don't think the same argument can be made for adding Ekblad to our D pool.

Baertschi - Matthews - Boeser
McCann - Horvat - Virtanen

I would argue that Hansen is, at this point, a legitimate top six winger without the Sedins, especially given the current standards of the NHL. At the very least, he is a top-end 3rd liner with a game elevated to a degree that is every bit as important as a top six winger. I also think that Gaunce has a better chance of possibly turning into something than Subban/Stecher do.

Defense is still a far far cry from that. Even considering the ratio that you need, even being conservative, I think it's currently something closer to 3:1 in favor of our forward prospects rather than the 3:2 that you're suggesting would be ideal.

That said, I still agree with you that BPA is the way to go because the forward class is far superior to the D class, none of the defensive prospects are reliable/safe projections into that role, and Ds are easier to get in later rounds, and I personally believe that a #1 center that we don't currently have is an absolute prerequisite whereas a #1 defenseman may not be. I'm more comfortable contending with a "defense by committee w/ help from goaltending/coaching" group rather than a "scoring by committee without any star offensive players" group.

Given the choices, picking a forward is the obvious choice. However, I would say that if the choice is between a forward that we know for a fact is going to be a bottom end top sixer with zero 1st line potential vs. a bottom end top four defenseman with zero 1st pairing potential, I would go with the defenseman.

We disagree on some of the details but overall I think we're in the same place. I'd have no problem taking a D if that player is in fact projected to be the better player. But I hate talk about how we need this and need that. **** it, we need everything right now. No time to be choosy.
 

WTG

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Like I said, I don't mind if you like Nylander more than Tkachuk. But I just don't think the bolded is a fair reasoning.

It's not Tkachuk's fault that he gets overshadowed by Matthews/Marner - he doesn't pick his linemates, rather IMO it should be seen as a positive that Tkachuk would be slotted on the top line of a stacked USA team.

Sure, it's a good thing. But I want to see how he does without good teammates. I want to see him and exclusively him. How would someone know that he isn't being propped up by his linemates if you haven't seen him away from his elite linemates.

Sure you can say he "meshes well" but how will I know if is more then just a support player that just only does well with stars. You'd have to assume he does well without Marner. That is why he slipped in my board. I am not willing to assume that Tkachuk would push the play without Marner.

Can he? Maybe.
Am I willing to assume he will? No.

And you know what. That just might be me not knowing my ****. I'd love to be proven wrong and debate about it. Because I don't think people should feel shame having their opinions challenged and be proven wrong. I'll watch tomorrows knights game and post video highlights.

Maybe I am just lacking exposure to Tkachuk.

There's just so many possible reasons why Gagner didn't develop.
Sam Gagner as a 18 year old put up 49 pts in the NHL - without Patrick Kane.
That's actually better than what Stamkos did in his first year.

So was Stamkos's junior stats inflated as well?

Now bringing it back to Tkachuk, I think you need to look at each prospect separately. Sam Gagner is much much different than Matthew Tkachuk.

Gagner is undersized, Tkachuk is not. If anything Tkachuk has very good size 6'1-1.5 and plays really well around the net and in traffic.

and if you really want to look at numbers (by no means do I only use stats to rate a player):

look how Gagner's goal scoring dropped in the playoffs for London, 16 game, 7 goals 22 assists.

Gagner hasn't broke 20 goals in the NHL.

On the other hand, Matthew Tkachuk has 14 goals 14 assists in 12 games.

If you watch them play its more evident, Gagner has trouble establishing himself in traffic where he's simply outmuscled and outpowered. Yet, hes not as slippery as Kane to create time and space on a consistent basis.

Matthew Tkachuk doesn't need to be slippery like a Kane, because he projects to be a forward who can win battles in front/around the net.

Reason I brought up Ganger is that he also didn't push play. Maybe not the best example. Ganger was still a terrific prospect, but he should have been picked later in the 1st.
 

ahmon

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We disagree on some of the details but overall I think we're in the same place. I'd have no problem taking a D if that player is in fact projected to be the better player. But I hate talk about how we need this and need that. **** it, we need everything right now. No time to be choosy.

I agree. I think the canucks lack both a #1D and a #1C.

Hence we need to take the BPA, period.
 

Shareefruck

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I agree. I think the canucks lack both a #1D and a #1C.

Hence we need to take the BPA, period.
To play devil's advocate, I think there's a conceivable argument to be made for drafting for need when it comes to picking a winger, though. I wouldn't necessarily make that argument, but if someone feels that picking one of the Ds over Tkachuk is more sensible (given that he's more of a support guy rather than a play-driver), even though Tkachuk is likely better, I wouldn't necessarily be outraged either.

That said, with Chychrun now raising question-marks, Juolevi and Sergachev already having question marks....... that's pretty tough to risk/swallow.
 

ahmon

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The panic on D has a lot to do with time to develop and the impossibility of acquiring core players via trade or UFA.

I don't think its impossible:
Seth Jones for Ryan Johansen.

I rather we pick the players that will actually pan out and then trade for position rather than trying to fill a need and get lesser players.
 

ahmon

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To play devil's advocate, I think there's a conceivable argument to be made for drafting for need when it comes to picking a winger, though. I wouldn't necessarily make that argument, but if someone feels that picking one of the Ds over Tkachuk is more sensible, even though Tkachuk is likely better, I wouldn't necessarily be outraged either.

why is that? Are wingers easier to acquire through other channels - like FA/trade?

To me Duncan Keith is hard to acquire because there's basically no one like him. But so is Patrick Kane.
 

Horse McHindu

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Do you think Laine is 'generational'?

Do you think Laine is 'generational'?

A week or so ago, I would've classified Matthews, Laine, and Puljiujarvi as being probable 'franchise players', but I'm wondering if a guy like Laine could actually turn out to be generational?......and when I say 'generational', I mean in the same weight class as your Crosby's, Ovechkin's, and McDavid's?

I'm starting to suspect that this might be the case, and wouldn't be surprised if Laine goes at #1.

What do you guys think?
 

ahmon

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Sure, it's a good thing. But I want to see how he does without good teammates. I want to see him and exclusively him. How would someone know that he isn't being propped up by his linemates if you haven't seen him away from his elite linemates.

Sure you can say he "meshes well" but how will I know if is more then just a support player that just only does well with stars. You'd have to assume he does well without Marner. That is why he slipped in my board. I am not willing to assume that Tkachuk would push the play without Marner.

Can he? Maybe.
Am I willing to assume he will? No.

And you know what. That just might be me not knowing my ****. I'd love to be proven wrong and debate about it. Because I don't think people should feel shame having their opinions challenged and be proven wrong. I'll watch tomorrows knights game and post video highlights.

Maybe I am just lacking exposure to Tkachuk.

But using your logic, why is Dvorak's numbers not inflated by Marner?

Wouldn't Mcleod's numbers be inflated by Nylander then?

Yet you say you feel Nylander and Tkachuk are very close, but somehow Mcleod is higher than Tkachuk?
 

Icebreakers

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Do you think Laine is 'generational'?

A week or so ago, I would've classified Matthews, Laine, and Puljiujarvi as being probable 'franchise players', but I'm wondering if a guy like Laine could actually turn out to be generational?......and when I say 'generational', I mean in the same weight class as your Crosby's, Ovechkin's, and McDavid's?

I'm starting to suspect that this might be the case, and wouldn't be surprised if Laine goes at #1.

What do you guys think?

He's not generational.. Kovalchuk in his prime wasn't a generational talent and he was a 50 goal scorer. For laine to be generational he would have to duplicate Ovis stats. I highly doubt that will happen. Franchise player is the best bet. Guys like Benn Tavares Getzlaf Kane aren't generational talents. Laine would have to outperform these players by a wide margin on a year to year basis to be generational.

Generational shot maybe. Not all around.
 

WTG

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But using your logic, why is Dvorak's numbers not inflated by Marner?

Wouldn't Mcleod's numbers be inflated by Nylander then?

Yet you say you feel Nylander and Tkachuk are very close, but somehow Mcleod is higher than Tkachuk?

Dvorak is absolutely having his numbers inflated because of Marner AND Tkachuk. My point with the inflated stats is to show why I am skeptical of the numbers Tkachuk is putting up are an actual representation of his play. I do not think they are, I think very few people think that they are.

The debate lies in how inflated are Tkachuk's stats. That is where I am skeptical.


As for McLeod vs Nylander/Tkachuk

McLeod is a very different prospect then Nylander/Tkachuk. First of all I look less at the points and more at the tools. McLeod has Hansen like speed + he plays center + he plays a 2-way game. I see him as a 2nd line center. Which I value higher then top 6 wingers.

Even then McLeod has lost his spot to Jost recently on my list. Who I think has more offensive upside.

In short, I think there is a difference between Nylander/McLeod/Jost/Tkachuk/Chychrun but it isn't much. Comes down to personal preference and I think Nylander and Jost have the higher potential then the others.
 
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