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2016-17 Kings Roster Part 2

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Stimpythecat said:
I think Dean Lombardi has a plan and is trying to follow the Blackhawk model. High priced star players and then fill out the roster with $1 million players.

There are 3 rookies on defense (Gravel, Forbort, LaDue) and a few more on the bottom 6 (Dowd, Shore). Next season, he has even more in Brodzinski, Kempe, and Mersch. Maybe Amadio.

It will take 1 more full season after this one to implement but then with essentially one related series of moves, the kings could be right back into it.
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I don't know if that's the Blackhawk model. It's just basically the cap model. It's that, or find a way to trade everyone before they need to be signed to big contracts, which is tough to do when there's a cap.

Chicago shows you can be top heavy with the cap and still be good, but their trick is having their big contract guys producing. Muzzin has 80 points in the last 2 years. He'll be lucky to hit 30 this year. Hossa's bounce back season at the age of 37/38 has been huge for Chicago this year. As the Kings resident old winger, Gaborik is at the other end of that spectrum. He's been damn near invisible every game.
 
I've been trying to figure out how much the RFAs will re-sign for. I'm guessing $1 million each on average. Some are still rookies even after the games played this year (LaDue, Mersch, and Brodzinski). Kempe still has 2 more years on his ELC.

Shore
Andreoff
LaDue
Gravel
Mersch
Brodzinski

I can explain further once I get an idea of what the above will sign for.

Edit: And the top heavy Blackhawk model will be much more clear at the end.
 
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KINGS17 said:
I think you are well aware of why I disappeared. It had nothing to do with Kopitar's play.

Your comment regarding my "M.O." is a cheap shot, which is what I have come to expect from you. I was here in 2012 defending Lombardi at every turn when most people were calling for his head. I stayed then and "faced the music" and had done so for well over two years. Frankly, I grew tired of the censorship that occurred here last year whenever Kopitar's contract came up in the discussion.

What am I looking for? I am getting it from some posters who see a need to look beyond the idea of "just make the playoffs and anything can happen".

He's clearly trending back up? I think his play has improved somewhat, but he still hasn't been assertive enough in the offensive zone to justify his pay, and it's not even close.

Tell me, for what part of the discussion is your mind not made up? You believe the current roster just needs a few tweaks and the Kings are being back to being cup contenders. It's obvious other posters are having other ideas.
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My mind is made up that Kopitar is not declining trash, at least. The rest of it is debatable and i waver more than you seem to think.

I DO believe in 'just make the playoffs and anything can happen' when I believe we have all the pieces. What are we actually missing? To me, it's a performance thing vs. an ability thing. We have a 1C/2C, 1D/2D, maybe we could use a step up on the top wings and at 3C/3D, but compared to other teams, we have the 1C/1D/1G formula down pat. Build around it. That's all. You will have a hard time convincing me as long as Kopi/Doughty/Quick and Carter at least if not Muzzin are on this team that this team is fully deficient. Depth is a problem sometimes as we saw last year, but for all the complaints about a bereft system, our depth on D has been shored up bigtime with Forbort and Gravel, even McNabb, and maybe LaDue. Our forward depth isn't a problem per se this year--it's the top guys.

I think that's a fair question, where isn't my mind made up--I have a hard time seeing this roster as flawed where others see it's time to blow it up. I think this team has a lot more in common with 2012 than it does with 2015. I have every reason to believe we're trending UP, as all the indicators are there, and guys like Kopitar and Toffoli aren't going to shoot like AHLers forever. Our injuries are recovering. Our rookies are gaining experience. And other teams are FINALLY hitting injury trouble and having major issues.

So we have an issue of philosophy between you and me which is fine. you think it's a black hole team. I don't think we're a cup favorite, but I know, like 2012, that we're a playoff pain in the ass if we make it. And for a GM who is obviously making plenty of money for his owners, why would DL back off that unless the wheels fall off? (and contrary to popular belief, they haven't). How many teams in the last decade have won and dismantled? Just the Wings, but that was more forced by retirements, no (and guys in their LATE 30s, not entering their 30s--they were uber competitive with guys in their early 30s and an elite d-man, sound familiar?)? Hell, the Pens reloaded!

I guess quick question before we talk more about other things--do you think this is a better or worse team than last year?
 
I think we just need retooling.

What I see Dean Lombardi doing to follow the Blackhawk model are steps that have to be taken anyway due to the cap. Mersch, Kempe, LaDue, Brodzinski... So the initial steps during the first year aren't the risk taking steps.

The only uncertainty comes into play during summer 2018. And I think it's a related series of moves that has to be taken if we are to keep Doughty happy enough to re-sign when his contract is up. He wants to win and DL has to show that he wants that too.
 
I like this team better than last year. Forbort and Gravel are a big reason for that. This group of defenseman we have is much more solid.

Scoring can ebb and flow, but defense is what it is, and we've got that.

The core foundation of our team; Doughty, Kopitar and Quick, are all either under performing or are out of line up.

I guess it comes down to whether or not you think they're under performing, or this is actually what they are. I think it's the former.
 
I am also in the 'just make the playoffs and anything can happen' camp. The salary cap NHL is close. The team that wins the cup will be the team that has solid vets, good goaltending, and a couple young players that step up and play out of their minds for the playoffs.

If we can get healthy, have Kopitar, Carter and Doughty have a solid playoffs, and have someone come out of nowhere (even a Gaborik or Brown) we can be a tough out for every team in the league. Add in a Forbort or Gravel stepping up and playing like a seasoned vet in the playoffs, we could be even scarier.

I really don't think there is a perfect model anymore. The champs will almost always have top-end talent and over-producing young players, though. Some years your players will be on a down year. That's when management has to figure out a fix. A coaching change could do the trick, but that's no guarantee. Sometimes a trade works (not so much the last 2 years for us). But I think you roll with your talent and hope to catch fire in a bottle. Pretty much what we did in 2012(catch fire in a bottle).
 
I'm in the camp that the next 30 games will determine our fate, which could lead to the "Let's just get in and anything can happen" camp.

Did anyone see he FSW 'Coffee with Bob' where DL was a guest? He brought up a great point. It's much more important to go into the playoffs hot than it is to have a great regular season.

Kings have yet to fully activate the forecheck. While we lead the league in hits, we haven't finished every check and brought our D down to pinch on a regular basis. It's a hard style to play and can't be sustained throughout the year, especially with a condensed schedule. However, if Sutter activates the 2012 buzzsaw Kings forecheck and the guys stay healthy, I think we can go on a run. Look for Kopitar to up his point total if that happens, as we tend to create lots of turnovers.

Conversely, if we limp into the playoffs like last year without much of a forecheck, we don't have a prayer.

And the line between SC winner and missing the playoffs is very thin. I distinctly remember 5 years ago around this time, one of the most infamous Kings threads of all time was created. "I'm calling it now... The Kings are Done!"

GKG!
 
driller1 said:
I'm in the camp that the next 30 games will determine our fate, which could lead to the "Let's just get in and anything can happen" camp.

Did anyone see he FSW 'Coffee with Bob' where DL was a guest? He brought up a great point. It's much more important to go into the playoffs hot than it is to have a great regular season.

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Which is quite easy to say when you routinely limp into the playoffs at the 6th - 8th seed.

What else can you say?

Or is he saying to the fans, "hey, don't get too worked up about another middle of the road season, we just count on upping our game when (if) we make the playoffs."
 
I think we have the best blue line since our cup runs - maybe since 2012. We just need to get our top 6 and Quick healthy.
 
Butch 19 said:
Which is quite easy to say when you routinely limp into the playoffs at the 6th - 8th seed.

What else can you say?

Or is he saying to the fans, "hey, don't get too worked up about another middle of the road season, we just count on upping our game when (if) we make the playoffs."
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Think you missed my point. If we get in as the 8 seed, my expectations will be drastically different if we're hot or if we limp into the playoffs. That's somewhat different from the "Just get into the playoffs and anything can happen" camp. I was just using his quote to illustrate my own views on this current team.
 
KingsFan7824 said:
6 of their 12 top points per game scorers are between the ages of 27 and 31. A good coach is a good coach, but it would be kind of sad if a team with that many veterans in a development league wasn't near the top of the standings.
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Stimpythecat said:
I think we have the best blue line since our cup runs - maybe since 2012. We just need to get our top 6 and Quick healthy.
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Agree. But the lack of experience of the 3 rookie D leaves more vulnerable than in 2012.
 
There's no Mitchell, or a healthy and physically imposing Greene or a Voynov in this group, but this current group is infinitely better than last year's crappy blueline.

A problem I have with this year's blueline isn't so much the lack of experience, rather, it's the horrendous play of the veterans. Doughty, Muzzin and Martinez have not performed to the best of their abilities.
 
Anybody who is waiting for the playoffs and the Kings veterans to hit the on switch is forgetting history. The on switch has been replaced by a faulty dimmer.
 
Stimpythecat said:
I think we have the best blue line since our cup runs - maybe since 2012. We just need to get our top 6 and Quick healthy.
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I am glad a couple people get it. This has been a year of struggle with injury. Losing your highly skilled and intense goalie 20 minutes into the season doesn't help. Anyone wonder how missing Quick's attitude on the ice and in the room has hurt the team. Face it, he gets fired up sometimes which seems to wake up the team. Plus from personal experience when you have a goalie behind you that you know can take over a game, a series, a couple weeks of games and go into beast mode like Quick, you play a little looser. Budaj has done a great job but is not that guy.

Toffoli's loss for 20 games also crushed this team and made it a one line team. Easier to defend. When he wasn't missing Gabby was. The problem with this team is scoring depth and losing Toffoli is a death sentence to the offences, losing Gabby and the shell he now is also hurts.

Kopitar - love him, hated it took 10 mil to sign him, but you sign that contract every time as the Kings are in the business of winning. He got hurt, then came back and wasn't the same player. As the season progresses you see him get better, healthier, with a few games of inconsistency sprinkled in between which has always been his MO

Carter - he is part of the reason that people are complaining about the offensive output of Kopitar as well. The guy has gone Beast mode most of the season which has helped hide the fact that we have had a Trevor Lewis, Andy Andreoff, Dwight King, etc skating in a top 3 role with Kopitar most of the season. Even if healthy Kopitar can not carry these players. Our favorite whipping boy Brown has spent time up there and he is no longer a top 6, nor in my mind is Gaborik.

I totally agree it's a retool and not a make over needed. We will have the goalie, we will have the defence if we protect the 4. At bare minimum we start next year with a cheap back bone of

Quick

Doughty, Muzzin, Forbert, Martinez, Gravel, and possibly LaDue and if Vegas doesn't take him McNabb.
Any team in hockey should be comfortable with this as their starting point.

Our top 6 core will still have Kopitar, Carter, Toffoli, and Pearson. All 4 great top 6 players but we still need offensive help for Kopitar.

Our bottom 6 will have a combo of Dowd, Lewis, Gabby, or Brown possibly all 4 if Vegas takes McNabb. All 4 very good bottom 6 players. I don't even mind Nolan to join the bottom line.

Let go of King (Mersch) , move Clifford (Andy A) as we have cheaper clones and invest in that top 6 forward.

Maybe just maybe Vegas does take a Brown or a Gabby.

No reason to blow this team up yet. Core is still set and signed at key spots long term once TT and Pearson sign, we do have time to build through the draft because of this and supplement it with some smart UFA signings until the kids are ready
 
driller1 said:
I gotta give you mad props for standing in and facing the music after the cup win! I know deep down you're a fan, and I bet crow never tasted so good... :laugh::laugh::laugh:
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Didn't bother me, there is nobody on this board that would have predicted what the Kings did in 2012....anyone who tells you differently is full of ****.
 
Moon Walker said:
what about Ryan + Hammond + Claesson for Gaborik + Martinez + pick?
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Don't need Hammond or Claesson, so the trade is really Ryan (who has negative value) for Gaborik (who has negative value) + Martinez (who has positive value). Don't see how this benefits the Kings.
 
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