2016-17 Kings Roster Part 2

[KINGS17]

No freaking way. The only reason Brown's contract gets mentioned as the worst over Ryan's is because people hate Brown and just don't care about Ryan because he's as invisible as Vanek.



Career wise doesn't matter if we're talking about this contract, though. There is zero indication Ryan is gonna suddenly wake up and be worth it. Brown is at least a positive force when he's not scoring, Ryan is a soft, floating liability. Ryan could and should be the better player but that's not happening with Brown outscoring him this year.

To be fair to ryan this COULD just be a down year, but look at how people have been eviscerated on this board for just a down year. I think a better comparable to Ryan than Brown is Gaborik in terms of playstyle and how people are frustrated, but the point is kind of moot, Ryan doesn't play Kings hockey and would be a silly risk to take.

Words to remember.

 

[Omni Owl]

I think a change of scenery would help out Ryan big time, he might be able to re-ignite his offensive spark playing with Carter or Kopitar.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Words to remember.

As much as I love the subtle dig you're misusing my words.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think a change of scenery would help out Ryan big time, he might be able to re-ignite his offensive spark playing with Carter or Kopitar.

Possible but it's a huge risk. You could be rejuvenating a player; you could also be adding 2 million for a worse fit. We don't have the cap space to play riverboat gambler like that right now. I could see another team doing it maybe.

 

[Reaper45]

Really? I would.

I wouldn't. Not even remotely.

 

[KINGS17]

As much as I love the subtle dig you're misusing my words.

No, not at all. Time will tell. What you said applies to every player on a long term, big money contract.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

No, not at all. Time will tell. What you said applies to every player on a long term, big money contract.

You're right. Why even bother signing anyone over 25?

 

[KINGS17]

You're right. Why even bother signing anyone over 25?

Now you're exaggerating. I have no problem signing older players to the right contract. Eight years and $80M isn't the right contract for a 29-year old forward.

Doughty? He might be a different story, but Kopitar's contract negatively affects that decision. We'll have to see what is going on when Doughty's contract comes up again.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Now you're exaggerating. I have no problem signing older players to the right contract. Eight years and $80M isn't the right contract for a 29-year old forward.

Was there really an alternative with Kopitar? Trade him as a soon to UFA that everyone knew would get at least say $9m, without a doubt, and you don't get enough back. Trade him before the start of the 15-16 season, and you're trading away a $6m #1 center. Let him walk on July 1st?

Kopitar had all the leverage. What's the right deal for him?

 

[deeshamrock]

No freaking way. The only reason Brown's contract gets mentioned as the worst over Ryan's is because people hate Brown and just don't care about Ryan because he's as invisible as Vanek.



Career wise doesn't matter if we're talking about this contract, though. There is zero indication Ryan is gonna suddenly wake up and be worth it. Brown is at least a positive force when he's not scoring, Ryan is a soft, floating liability. Ryan could and should be the better player but that's not happening with Brown outscoring him this year.

To be fair to ryan this COULD just be a down year, but look at how people have been eviscerated on this board for just a down year. I think a better comparable to Ryan than Brown is Gaborik in terms of playstyle and how people are frustrated, but the point is kind of moot, Ryan doesn't play Kings hockey and would be a silly risk to take.

Brown is outscoring him because Ryan has been hampered with an injured hand. 56 pts last yr and .67 ppg over the last 5.
He's a more skilled player but not worth 7M. But Brown isn't worth 5.8 either

But since this trade would never happen, as Ryan is not anything resembling a Sutter player. He'd wither and die on the Kings current Vine.

Just about every team has at least 1 player that is 'not worth their CAP hit' Callahan is pulling down close to 6M and so is Clarkson, isn't Duncan Keith getting close to 7 M for the next 7 years? I like Ladd but not for that price and his age.
MOst GM's are in the same boat, some just have more holes in the boat to plug.
I was never a big fan of Ryan's game, not the best skater (and lazy ) and seems to need to be with a top center to produce. Can create much on his own.
Add Dion's 7 and that is 14 M of bad paper.

 

[KINGS17]

Duncan Keith is on one of the long-term grandfathered contracts similar to what Quick has with the Kings.

Duncan Keith $5.54M cap hit through 2022-23. Keith's annual salary is already on the decline. He will make $6M this season, $5M next season, $4.5M in 2018-19...

until he is 39 years of age and making a salary of $1.5M in 2022-23.

 

[PJ Kings Hockey]

A couple of notes: Ralph Strangis will be calling the next 7 Fox Sports West games while Bob Miller is out.

Also, the Kings scheduled a Meet the Players event Friday with Nick Dowd and Paul LaDue so as many other have, I'd expect LaDue to be recalled by Thursday.

 

[regulate]

I'd expect LaDue to be recalled by Thursday.

I wonder if that could change with LoVerde now hurt. The Reign are running out of bodies, they are in bad shape.

 

[lexlavender]

Yes, I imagine the only reason LaDue was sent down was so that he could continue playing and practicing during the Bye Week. This isn't a very unusual Dean move at all, I thin he's done similar things before.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Now you're exaggerating. I have no problem signing older players to the right contract. Eight years and $80M isn't the right contract for a 29-year old forward.

Doughty? He might be a different story, but Kopitar's contract negatively affects that decision. We'll have to see what is going on when Doughty's contract comes up again.

Ok not 25, UFA age is 27.

It's weird that no one but you has figured out how to moneyball hockey yet.

 

[KINGS17]

Ok not 25, UFA age is 27.

It's weird that no one but you has figured out how to moneyball hockey yet.

Maybe the GMs know something about the next CBA negotiation we don't know.

I think a big key to any GM's success today is determining which of his young players are the ones to give the big 2nd contract. Dean got it right with Kopitar and Doughty.

Third contracts for eight years and big money for players, especially forwards, in their late twenties almost never work out. Right now the Kings are getting Handzus-level performance out of Kopitar. If Kopitar returns to being a 50-point+ player he will be slightly better than what the Kings were getting out of Handzus when he was in LA.

Would you like to see the Kings pay a cap hit of $10M a season for a 55-60 point Handzus?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Maybe the GMs know something about the next CBA negotiation we don't know.

I think a big key to any GM's success today is determining which of his young players are the ones to give the big 2nd contract. Dean got it right with Kopitar and Doughty.

Third contracts for eight years and big money for players, especially forwards, in their late twenties almost never work out. Right now the Kings are getting Handzus-level performance out of Kopitar. If Kopitar returns to being a 50-point+ player he will be slightly better than what the Kings were getting out of Handzus when he was in LA.

Would you like to see the Kings pay a cap hit of $10M a season for a 55-60 point Handzus?

Except for that little thing where he's over PPG since appearing more healthy. But sure, he's Handzus.

The problem with what you're calling the 'third contract' is that it's the first one where most players are UFA, they have all the leverage. Are you just supposed to let every UFA go unless you can get them on a (perceived, anyway) discount up front?

Show me a GM that's doing that, and I'll show you a failing franchise that's rebuilding rather than trying to keep their window open by signing all their top players while coming off a Cup win. You're doing all your economics in these threads in a vacuum where every team has had equal results and players in similar situations.

 

[YP44]

Maybe the GMs know something about the next CBA negotiation we don't know.

I think a big key to any GM's success today is determining which of his young players are the ones to give the big 2nd contract. Dean got it right with Kopitar and Doughty.

Third contracts for eight years and big money for players, especially forwards, in their late twenties almost never work out. Right now the Kings are getting Handzus-level performance out of Kopitar. If Kopitar returns to being a 50-point+ player he will be slightly better than what the Kings were getting out of Handzus when he was in LA.

Would you like to see the Kings pay a cap hit of $10M a season for a 55-60 point Handzus?

simply not true. Kopitar is much better defensively than Zues and although his YTD numbers are not well he generates opportunities that Zues simply didn't.

 

[KINGS17]

Except for that little thing where he's over PPG since appearing more healthy. But sure, he's Handzus.

The problem with what you're calling the 'third contract' is that it's the first one where most players are UFA, they have all the leverage. Are you just supposed to let every UFA go unless you can get them on a (perceived, anyway) discount up front?

Show me a GM that's doing that, and I'll show you a failing franchise that's rebuilding rather than trying to keep their window open by signing all their top players while coming off a Cup win. You're doing all your economics in these threads in a vacuum where every team has had equal results and players in similar situations.

I know this is the story you are trying to sell, and yes Kopitar got hot for a while against some of the worst teams in the NHL. Over his last 10 games he has 2 goals and 6 assists. Those numbers are decent, but not really worth writing home about.

Unfortunately, the rest of the games count as well, and Kopitar's production isn't cutting it. We can go with the "he's injured" reason I suppose. Is he going to have more or fewer injuries as he gets older?

I CAN show you a GM that DID it who now has a team firmly entrenched in the black hole. I suppose it's in Dean's job description to do what the other GMs do?

 

[KINGS17]

simply not true. Kopitar is much better defensively than Zues and although his YTD numbers are not well he generates opportunities that Zues simply didn't.

Kopitar's shooting percentage is way down. Some of it may be attributed to bad luck, but most of it is due to not going to and shooting from areas that are dangerous.

You can almost always count on Kopitar to, instead of taking the puck strong to the net when he has the size advantage, go behind and around the net and pass it back to the point.

You all know this is true, because I know you all watch the games and are astute observers.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I know this is the story you are trying to sell, and yes Kopitar got hot for a while against some of the worst teams in the NHL. Over his last 10 games he has 2 goals and 6 assists. Those numbers are decent, but not really worth writing home about.

Unfortunately, the rest of the games count as well, and Kopitar's production isn't cutting it. We can go with the "he's injured" reason I suppose. Is he going to have more or fewer injuries as he gets older?

I CAN show you a GM that DID it who now has a team firmly entrenched in the black hole. I suppose it's in Dean's job description to do what the other GMs do?

so .8 PPG? That's about his career average, lol.

The other problem is it assumes that these players can, in fact, be replaced. I assure you we'd potentially be waiting a decade or more on a prayer for a guy like Kopitar, look how many franchises with lottery picks year over year have yet to find a center better than him! He's top 10 on a bad day, top 5 on a good.

I would assume DL has the same job description as most GMs and he's excelled to a success measure that only one other GM can surpass. 2nd out of 30 ain't so bad. Don't get me wrong his feet should absolutely be held to the fire, but he's also earned a bit more patience from me than you.

 

[KINGS17]

so .8 PPG? That's about his career average, lol.

The other problem is it assumes that these players can, in fact, be replaced. I assure you we'd potentially be waiting a decade or more on a prayer for a guy like Kopitar, look how many franchises with lottery picks year over year have yet to find a center better than him! He's top 10 on a bad day, top 5 on a good.

I would assume DL has the same job description as most GMs and he's excelled to a success measure that only one other GM can surpass. 2nd out of 30 ain't so bad. Don't get me wrong his feet should absolutely be held to the fire, but he's also earned a bit more patience from me than you.

As I said all of the games count, and they count if Kopitar is "injured" or not.

Kopitar goalless streaks this season: 5 games, 5 games, 12 games, and 16 games.

That's truly unbelievable. What's the point per game average for those games? Can I cherry pick those games, because they are a much larger sample size?

I had nothing but patience as Dean built this team. Unfortunately, he has failed to make many of the difficult decisions necessary to keep things on the right track in order for the window to stay open.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

As I said all of the games count, and they count if Kopitar is "injured" or not.

Kopitar goalless streaks this season: 5 games, 5 games, 12 games, and 16 games.

That's truly unbelievable. What's the point per game average for those games? Can I cherry pick those games, because they are a much larger sample size?

I had nothing but patience as Dean built this team. Unfortunately, he has failed to make many of the difficult decisions necessary to keep things on the right track in order for the window to stay open.

I like how you both 1. disappeared while Kopitar went beastmode last year and 2. put 'injured' in quotes as if it werent confirmed Kopitar were actually injured...do you remember he missed games and came back visibly different? Of course you do, because you watch the games. So you're coming back to say 'i told you so' which is adorable but unproductive. He will most certainly end the year under his career average because similar to 2015 he had a very slow start before he went 1.5 PPG the rest of the season. You're right that he can't undo the games that have already been played. But if you want to talk about cherry picking, you missed an entire season...

Obviously I'm confident in him in a way you're not. I know you're going to chest-thump over this contract until it's actually bad because posters with your M.O. like to show up to spread their misery and disappear when they have to face the music. I truly don't know what else you're seeking here, because it's not 'discussion' when your mind is made up and you close your eyes and ears.

Edit: oh, and youre ignoring everything but the raw production, which is simply one part of Kopitar's game...but you already knew that. Obviously we want more from the captain and the big contract but he's clearly trending back up so I just wonder if you'll be here when he does.

 

[Stimpythecat]

I think Dean Lombardi has a plan and is trying to follow the Blackhawk model. High priced star players and then fill out the roster with $1 million players.

There are 3 rookies on defense (Gravel, Forbort, LaDue) and a few more on the bottom 6 (Dowd, Shore). Next season, he has even more in Brodzinski, Kempe, and Mersch. Maybe Amadio.

It will take 1 more full season after this one to implement but then with essentially one related series of moves, the kings could be right back into it.

 

[KINGS17]

I like how you both 1. disappeared while Kopitar went beastmode last year and 2. put 'injured' in quotes as if it werent confirmed Kopitar were actually injured...do you remember he missed games and came back visibly different? Of course you do, because you watch the games. So you're coming back to say 'i told you so' which is adorable but unproductive. He will most certainly end the year under his career average because similar to 2015 he had a very slow start before he went 1.5 PPG the rest of the season. You're right that he can't undo the games that have already been played. But if you want to talk about cherry picking, you missed an entire season...

Obviously I'm confident in him in a way you're not. I know you're going to chest-thump over this contract until it's actually bad because posters with your M.O. like to show up to spread their misery and disappear when they have to face the music. I truly don't know what else you're seeking here, because it's not 'discussion' when your mind is made up and you close your eyes and ears.

Edit: oh, and youre ignoring everything but the raw production, which is simply one part of Kopitar's game...but you already knew that. Obviously we want more from the captain and the big contract but he's clearly trending back up so I just wonder if you'll be here when he does.

I think you are well aware of why I disappeared. It had nothing to do with Kopitar's play.

Your comment regarding my "M.O." is a cheap shot, which is what I have come to expect from you. I was here in 2012 defending Lombardi at every turn when most people were calling for his head. I stayed then and "faced the music" and had done so for well over two years. Frankly, I grew tired of the censorship that occurred here last year whenever Kopitar's contract came up in the discussion.

What am I looking for? I am getting it from some posters who see a need to look beyond the idea of "just make the playoffs and anything can happen".

He's clearly trending back up? I think his play has improved somewhat, but he still hasn't been assertive enough in the offensive zone to justify his pay, and it's not even close.

Tell me, for what part of the discussion is your mind not made up? You believe the current roster just needs a few tweaks and the Kings are being back to being cup contenders. It's obvious other posters are having other ideas.