WJC: 2016 — Canada Roster Talk (Part V) [mod warning in OP]

[HarryLime]

Can someone please explain how marner got so much ****? he was your biggest offensive threat all tournament.

I think it was a combination of things.

1) people were expecting him and strome to dominate and they didn't. both were good and along with konecny were canada's best forwards. but neither dominated the way mathews, laine, pulju or alex nylander did.

2) he got off to a disappointing start. had a nice setup in the USA game, but yeah... that set the tone for a lot of people to call him out.

3) he was getting pushed around quite a bit, and at times looked weak. this is fair criticism imo.

overall to me he was easily one of our best players. the team just wasn't good this year. from goaltending, to defense to coaching. it was a mess and the most dysfunctional group i can remember (been watching since 2002 tourney).

i mean after the game the only comments in the game thread were on his coincidental penalty he had. he had 2 goals and had a beautiful scoring chance later on that almost gave us the lead. it's just the way things are. guy did everything but some just want to talk about the negativities.

 

[EveryDay]

LOL, ok.

I pretty much disagree with your entire ranking.

Do your ranking and lets see the difference......

 

[SAK11]

its because he is a leaf

I'm sure this is the reason for some people but there are plenty of legitimate fans of Team Canada that can put aside their dislike of the Leafs and fairly judge players based on their play.

I didn't think Marner played well enough. He was clearly one of their most talented players and did a great job in the 3rd period of today's game, and while he certainly wasn't one of their worst players, I expected more out of him, particularly from a consistency perspective. He was caught trying to do too much at times, there were times he went for the spectacular play instead of the smart one, he took long shifts and sometimes it looked like he was playing pond hockey. I again have to put a lot of the blame on Lowry. There was no accountability on this team for selfish, poor, or undisciplined play. Guys like Barzal and Konecny at times looked like Canada's best players, but were stapled to the bench for the most part while a guy like Virtanen was allowed to play big minutes. Marner and Strome shouldn't have been asked to be superstars. Canada should've leaned on their depth, but Lowry dropped the ball.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Every defenceman outside of Sanheim-Dermott pairing were awful ....... Not one defenceman on this team is able to play as good defensively as Noah Juulsen but hey we had to make a spot on the team for Hickey and McKeown.

1-Sanheim = simply the best
2-Dermott = Was solid on both end of the puck
3-Fleury= was awful offensively and good defensively
4-Hicketts = good with the puck on his stick but totally lost without it.
5-Chabot = he was good offensively but pretty bad in his own zone
6-Hickey = a very average defenceman
7-McKeown = Worst defenceman to make TC in the last few years.....

Also this was by far the worst coaches we had on TC in the last 15 years.....

Blackwood = Choker

Hicketts, Chabot, Hickey, and McKeown looked by far the most out of place, imo. And while some of that may have had something to do with how they were used, they even looked overwhelmed against weaker round robin opponents, for god's sake. Fleury? Meh. A decent enough #6/7 to bring along.

I still can't believe a coach had a guy like Sanheim on his roster and found every way possible to avoid using him. Just horrible coaching and player deployment/role assignment.

 

[Get North]

I agree.

I disagree that a Canadian team going out in the quarterfinals warrants some kind of re-examination of Canadian hockey.

Canada has won the latest World Junior "A" Challenge, World U17 Hockey Challenge, Ivan Hlinka Memorial Tournament (U18s for Canada's full roster), World Championships, Olympics. They've been winning at all the levels from U17, U18, to Jr. A, to the World Champions and Olympics at the men level.

It's happening more often where GMs will take a chance to play a 19 year old in the NHL rather than in junior where he excels in. Apparently it's becoming a younger man's game so Canada seems to lose more and more 19 year olds to the NHL. Lately, it seems like McCann is basically going to play 50% of the rest of the season to gain strength and learn from tape. So it seems like a lot of these teams aren't really playing their 19 year olds full time.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Hicketts, Chabot, Hickey, and McKeown looked by far the most out of place, imo. And while some of that may have had something to do with how they were used, they even looked overwhelmed against weaker round robin opponents, for god's sake. Fleury? Meh. A decent enough #6/7 to bring along.

I still can't believe a coach had a guy like Sanheim on his roster and found every way possible to avoid using him. Just horrible coaching and player deployment/role assignment.

I only watched the last game so not going to get into a pissing contest, but McKeown looked far from out of place in this game against Finland. Maybe it was his best game? but he looked actually pretty good that game. Fleury? not so much.

 

[X66]

Can someone please explain how marner got so much ****? he was your biggest offensive threat all tournament.

It's mostly because he's a Leaf, and look at the posters that rag on him, it's actually quite funny.

At the end of the day, when the rest of team Canada was folding like a cheap tent, Marner showed that he can be that game breaker.

Him and Point IMO were never good linemates because they needed the pucks on their sticks, that IMO was a flawed coaching decision.

 

[DIrwin]

In all honesty if Marner, Strome and Pointe (6p each) don't show up this tourney would have been even uglier. Hicketts and Chabot are next 2 highest scorers with 3pts...

Marner and Strome are the last players who deserve to be ragged on in this tourney. They definitely could have played better but people blaming those two... I digress.

 

[YMCMBYOLO]

Really? I missed the guy already in the NHL that would be playing goalie for this team.

Also don't act like Eichel, Larkin and Hafinin dropping in on the Team USA with an actual good goalie back there isn't a huge deal. Sorry in this particular year, no getting everyone available probably wasn't the answer to what failed this team, though it is hard to envision them out before the medal round.

Again last time they had everyone available they didn't medal.

I think there is plenty to examine and chew on before opting to the easy excuse column. Which is why I said I agreed with a ton of his post but took issue with that common excuse when Team Canada falters. It certainly doesn't come up often in a year where they are boat racing this competition...

And walking up and down them isn't a description of what would have happened either so the emphatic nature is also something I take issue with. The rest of the World is getting a lot better at hockey and to me that is a good thing and actually in large part because of the carrot they have been chasing all these years in Canada and to some extent especially in Europe in Russia.

Except, I don't think JackSlater brought up those players as an excuse. That aspect surely didn't come to my mind until I read this thread.

Every country has players not playing in the tourney, Canada more than others, we have to adjust/deal with it and move on.

The biggest issue was the coaching in my opinion, as I felt Canada had a roster to challenge for gold. The coaching showed and I'm not sure how people could say differently (not saying you said differently).

 

[Atomos2]

Lowry's Victoria teams are the most penalized teams the past 2 seasons in the Dub

'nuff said

terrible hire

Lol. Ok, now it all makes sense. He must think Virtanen was the best player in the tournament

 

[JackSlater]

Couple thoughts:
4. Honestly outside of Virtanen and Perlini there wasnt really anyone who played particularly bad. Biggest issue for me was a lack of team cohesiveness, a lack of a strategy to play on big ice and a lack of discipline .

This is important to note. Some players weren't good, but that's the case every year. I can't really single out a specific player (even the goaltenders) or cite lack of work ethic on the team this year. The team was build on a shaky foundation. Beating Finland just would have exposed them to a legitimate beatdown against Sweden in the semi finals.

You were on a roll with on the money explanations right up until this typical malarkey. What happened the last time this thing was best on best... No they don't walk all over the tournament, what you have instead is an American team with Larkin, Hanifin and Eichel that looks even better, and reinforces what might actually cost them the gold, in terms of one more front line D-man and incredible center depth.

So sick of this reasoning, especially when you spend so much time crushing Lowry, was he not going to coach those said players?

Take your three losses for what they really were and stop with the excuse machine. Sweden hasn't lost a group game in nine years, the USA brought a better roster with an actual good goaltender and are missing substantial players and marching on. Finland's first line was better than what mighty Canada brought to the tournament. They completely melted down and lost all composure as well in terms of penalties.

It is disappointing but I look forward to the day, this is never trotted out. I thought that day might be over when with everyone available in Sochi they didn't medal but I guess that didn't drive home other teams are extremely good at hockey too.

Canada will take a good long look in the mirror. Yes the NHL played a part, but this is still the first time Canada has fielded a roster without having one of the 5 best players in the tournament in a while if ever. Hockey Canada needs to get a lot more serious about goaltending and if I was them I would run a much longer camp in August with these guys to get a better feel for chemistry and who is good at what.

Well it's unfortunate that you don't like it, but that's the way it looks to me. The complaints about Canadian development are already out there, and they're baseless at the moment. The losses were all reasonable - this team performed horribly. If we are talking about Canadian development, which is the paragraph that you cited, then you must consider the players who were not there. Canada losing in 2013 with 3 NHLers (RNH, Hamilton, Huberdeau) doesn't invalidate the huge impact that other NHLers have had or could have had. For the sake of fairness, there are also years like 2002 when Canada would have added almost nothing to the team (Hartnell and Blackburn) and almost certainly still would have lost the tournament. For this team, they were what they were. When discussing Canadian development, as that paragraph did, the missing players are very relevant.

All great points. What will stick out to me is the lack of discipline on this team. Virtanen and Perlini will wear a lot of blame for today's result (and rightfully so), but Strome and Marner also took stupid penalties in the latter stages of today's game that really cost us and it's especially galling that Lowry kept going back to them immediately after we dug the puck out of our own net. Perlini took the shift immediately after his penalty led to a Finland goal, as did Virtanen. Virtanen played a lot in the latter half of the third period. Inexcusable on the part of Lowry, as holding players accountable for selfish and undisciplined play (and, conversely, rewarding strong play) is Coaching 101 and Lowry gets a miserable grade in that regard.

The pieces were there, to be sure, but our players were not put in the right position to succeed. Virtanen being force-fed minutes on Strome's line despite showing no semblance of chemistry or fit is simply stupid. Konecny barely playing when the game was on the line is stupid. Not pulling Blackwood, who was terrible today, was stupid. And these poor decisions and not making the appropriate adjustmemts cost us time and time again.

Overall, it's probably better for Canada in the long run that we lost today so that we can go back to the drawing board. The talent will always be there for us, but finding the right coaching staff is of critical importance going forward.

I'm less pessimistic. No return to the drawing board. They picked a good roster this year, the team just didn't play well together and the coach was horrible. Lowry should never be approached by HC again, but other than that there isn't much of an issue in my opinion.

I've got nothing left to say about this edition of the Canadian WJC team. To channel Belichick... on to 2017.

 

[phil162888]

It's mostly because he's a Leaf, and look at the posters that rag on him, it's actually quite funny.

At the end of the day, when the rest of team Canada was folding like a cheap tent, Marner showed that he can be that game breaker.

Him and Point IMO were never good linemates because they needed the pucks on their sticks, that IMO was a flawed coaching decision.

That Point line despite getting the most opportunities and playing time were the worst line the first two periods. If Marner didn't play so well in the 3rd he would have been murdered on this site. He redeemed himself and his coach for allowing his 2 minute shifts with that 2nd goal and that great shift on the 4 on 4. Marner was treated like a superstar by his coach all tournament and finally delivered but it was far too little and too late. If there wasn't great players on the other lines I would agree with what Lowry did but the truth is there were other great players that showed they were capable but continually were not given the chance to succeed. From the start of the tourney this team should've rolled four lines and then let the players determine ice time by their play. Funny how two of Canada's best forwards all tournament were considered the 13th forward and a checking line winger..... Crazy thing is no matter how good they played their roles and ice time essentially stayed the same.

 

[phil162888]

In all honesty if Marner, Strome and Pointe (6p each) don't show up this tourney would have been even uglier. Hicketts and Chabot are next 2 highest scorers with 3pts...

Marner and Strome are the last players who deserve to be ragged on in this tourney. They definitely could have played better but people blaming those two... I digress.

This so wrong its not funny!!!! Marner and Strome played 75-90% of the PP time. How the hell was it even possible for someone else to get as many points??? Really every offensive zone opportunity every powerplay these three were on and didn't produce many goals. Add to the fact they couldn't produce a boat load of goals against Denmark,Swiss and Finlands defence You would have an argument if the coach put Barzal, Beaulivier, Konecny and Gauthier a ton and they couldn't generate opportunities but that didn't happen (did u watch the games). This coach had it in his mind that Hicketts, Marner, Point, Perlini, Virtanan and Strome were the six players that would and could carry the team and despite this not happening he would not change his strategy and in the end he was flat out wrong and we lost. Thats the truth so when people criticise the two its understandable because they were chosen by the coach to carry the team ala the Finish twins and they didn't (they weren't horrible I don't think anyone is saying that at all they just weren't dominate like their playing time would suggest).

 

[Semantics]

This so wrong its not funny!!!! Marner and Strome played 75-90% of the PP time. How the hell was it even possible for someone else to get as many points??? Really every offensive zone opportunity every powerplay these three were on and didn't produce many goals. Add to the fact they couldn't produce a boat load of goals against Denmark,Swiss and Finlands defence You would have an argument if the coach put Barzal, Beaulivier, Konecny and Gauthier a ton and they couldn't generate opportunities but that didn't happen (did u watch the games). This coach had it in his mind that Hicketts, Marner, Point, Perlini, Virtanan and Strome were the six players that would and could carry the team and despite this not happening he would not change his strategy and in the end he was flat out wrong and we lost. Thats the truth so when people criticise the two its understandable because they were chosen by the coach to carry the team ala the Finish twins and they didn't (they weren't horrible I don't think anyone is saying that at all they just weren't dominate like their playing time would suggest).

Marner and Strome did produce. 6 points each in 5 games is historically good production for an 18 year old top draft pick. Johansen, Backstrom, Kariya, etc. all produced similarly.

Canada allowed 18 goals against in 5 games. You are putting 2+2 together and getting 5 here.

 

[Advanced stats]

This so wrong its not funny!!!! Marner and Strome played 75-90% of the PP time. How the hell was it even possible for someone else to get as many points??? Really every offensive zone opportunity every powerplay these three were on and didn't produce many goals. Add to the fact they couldn't produce a boat load of goals against Denmark,Swiss and Finlands defence You would have an argument if the coach put Barzal, Beaulivier, Konecny and Gauthier a ton and they couldn't generate opportunities but that didn't happen (did u watch the games). This coach had it in his mind that Hicketts, Marner, Point, Perlini, Virtanan and Strome were the six players that would and could carry the team and despite this not happening he would not change his strategy and in the end he was flat out wrong and we lost. Thats the truth so when people criticise the two its understandable because they were chosen by the coach to carry the team ala the Finish twins and they didn't (they weren't horrible I don't think anyone is saying that at all they just weren't dominate like their playing time would suggest).

I'll bite.
Bolded is plain wrong. I'll just that alone.

The overwhelming problem with this team is the awful coaching and management. Awful decisions and structure hurt the most. Way more than the play of Marner and Strome did.
And Jake Virtanen. you can't fix stupid though, and ultimately that falls on the coaching staff as well.

 

[Classicnamesup]

Vs Finland they played the entire PP up until Marner scored the backhand. It was ridiculous to see the 5 man unit entering the zone after 90 seconds on the PP. Must be Lowry's doing and Marner made it count but when do you see an entire unit play 2 mins. Not like they were in the zone the entire time, they had to reset two or three times.

 

[wishywashy19]

I also really like the idea of selecting somebody outside of major junior. Tough to find a guy without anything in the way of commitments. But I have to think it could be done. Goalies and coaching have been an issue now for far too long to not do a serious evaluation of that selection process.

I mean could Tom Renney who is committed to Hockey Canada not sign like a three year deal on top of that for extra coin to say hey I will also be coaching the World Juniors Team as a part of my commitment to Hockey Canada and my role in the organization.

Good write up by Jack Slater
I am still pissed hours after
This was a winnable game but we still didn't deserve a greater fate
I gave Lowry every bit of doubt up until today
When Perlini took that bad penalty and he had him out there next shift I lost it
I said long long ago that this team would not medal so I didn't have them in highest regard but I did not see the way we played would be so dis functional
What about hiring a permanent coach and do away with patronizing the Chl who really are looking to move coaches like cattle
Very disappointed with the 96 group forwards
Very disappointed with Lowry
I can only sum it up this way
I am really disappointed that so few ruined it on so many
It is all about rewarding players for their play and He really screwed that up
This team was lost long before this game

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Well it's unfortunate that you don't like it, but that's the way it looks to me. The complaints about Canadian development are already out there, and they're baseless at the moment. The losses were all reasonable - this team performed horribly. If we are talking about Canadian development, which is the paragraph that you cited, then you must consider the players who were not there. Canada losing in 2013 with 3 NHLers (RNH, Hamilton, Huberdeau) doesn't invalidate the huge impact that other NHLers have had or could have had. For the sake of fairness, there are also years like 2002 when Canada would have added almost nothing to the team (Hartnell and Blackburn) and almost certainly still would have lost the tournament. For this team, they were what they were. When discussing Canadian development, as that paragraph did, the missing players are very relevant.

But again you have to give everyone their missing players.... You have to hope they were actually injury free or something else didn't happen like they got a suspension in the build up or at the tournament itself which is reinvent history to use this line of reasoning. To then say it is a cakewalk is something I cannot buy, especially since we did see it not long ago and Canada didn't even medal.

True not every year is the same, but the other teams are losing more and more players as well. One could argue pretty forcefully that this year is easily the greatest collection of talent the USA has ever left home. That changes your cakewalk scenario a ton. Especially since because of the process of how Hockey Canada selects that coach you still have Lowry coaching the team and you still have Hockey Canada running with the two goalies they selected anyway.

It might be important to the greater picture but we have no idea. The rules of the system they play under are known going into this tournament, who is likely to be there and what is happening. If that invalidates the losses than it does the wins as well. I can say Seth Jones makes the USA an automatic medalist in the year he misses, that doesn't make it true. We have seen plenty of players under-deliver in this tournament, even great ones.

I thought your other points held a lot more weight. I really enjoyed reading your take, I just take issue with that one point. I think your analysis of the coaching is spot on, Lowry to me was the biggest failure of this addition of Team Canada by a country mile.

Anyway an angry Canadian team in 2016/2017 is bad news for everyone rooting for other teams, they should be extremely motivated.

And look good news it seems that most everyone that will be playing in the NHL underage will be from other countries... Hope you're ready to hear it thrown back in your face if they falter... My guess is that wont' be a reasonable excuse when Finland says yeah but what if or USA says Matthews would have led the team to glory, too bad he is stuck playing in the NHL...

I think there is plenty to digest in terms of coaching mistakes and Hockey Canada issues beyond who was there. They lost three games, they could have used all those players, but I have little faith Lowry would have used them correctly and who knows who Hockey Canada plays favorites with and bumps of the roster to include them.

But I realize it is not my national team, just was surprised by what they iced this year and how they played. Remember the disappointment when the USA pulled something similar a couple years back in Alberta where it was inexplicable to see them play the way they did.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

The roster wasn't the problem. The problems were poor coaching and underachieving players (due, in large part, to poor coaching).

This roster had the potential to play far better than it did.

 

[moon*]

True not every year is the same, but the other teams are losing more and more players as well. One could argue pretty forcefully that this year is easily the greatest collection of talent the USA has ever left home. That changes your cakewalk scenario a ton. Especially since because of the process of how Hockey Canada selects that coach you still have Lowry coaching the team and you still have Hockey Canada running with the two goalies they selected anyway.

It may very well be the greatest collection of talent that the US left home but that is because US hockey sucks so rarely leaves anyone at home.

And the more important part is this greatest collection is still much worse than the collection that Canada left this time and usually does leave behind.

Now as mentioned this doesn't matter in terms of winning or losing this tournament as Canada deals with this all the time and should be good enough to overcome it. But when people bring up issues of Canadian development or if other countries are catching up it should definitely be pointed out that we are missing by far the most impactful guys and a a group that would have Canada cake walking to the final without a close game to be had.

 

[Backami]

Too much of hassle about nothing. Canada is very good anyway.

 

[therealdeal]

Absolutely atrocious coaching, very bad goaltending, a bit of bad luck, terrible, terrible discipline, and the worst player we've had in the last 15 years in Virtanen buried this team.

Exciting game though.

 

[voxel]

The roster wasn't the problem. The problems were poor coaching and underachieving players (due, in large part, to poor coaching).

This roster had the potential to play far better than it did.

I didn't watch a single WJC game this year, but I found the entire 1st round of the 2015 draft (except Eichel and McDavid) underwhelming.

At some point in the future, maybe the roster will take the blame for the underwhelming performance.

 

[twistedsteel76]

It's mostly because he's a Leaf, and look at the posters that rag on him, it's actually quite funny.

At the end of the day, when the rest of team Canada was folding like a cheap tent, Marner showed that he can be that game breaker.

Him and Point IMO were never good linemates because they needed the pucks on their sticks, that IMO was a flawed coaching decision.

Agreed. It's the same handful of posters.

Lots of hate probably because their own prospects didn't see as much ice time as they would have liked. As a result they set the bar impossibly high for Marner. Then there are those that are looking to deflect attention from their own prospects poor performance.

At the end of the day, I think he played great and impressed me the most on team Canada. In those periods when he was on, he flat out dominated. In the others he was solid. I think it's unfair to expect him to constantly dominate. Even the best in the game don't dominate constantly. The team as a whole, left a lot to be desired but pinning the majority of the blame on Marner is downright silly.

Considering it's his first WJ is even more impressive. Look at what Matthews did last year at his first.

The kid definitely had some things to work on such as strength but from what I've seen, the skies the limit.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

I didn't watch a single WJC game this year, but I found the entire 1st round of the 2015 draft (except Eichel and McDavid) underwhelming.

At some point in the future, maybe the roster will take the blame for the underwhelming performance.

I don't know what your basis for saying that is - when you measure the players taken in the first round, particularly the top 15 or so on the basis of their draft year performances and their draft year + 1 performances, they measure up fairly well.

You say that in the future the roster might take the blame for the underwhelming performance - however, the players drafted in '15 performed, as a group, better than the '14 draft picks.

Given that the '14 draft-heavy d-men, '14 draft goalie, and '14 draft forwards all underachieved, while Strome, Marner, Barzal, Konecny, and Crouse (all '15 picks) were our best players, your comment makes little sense...although, as you admit, you haven't watched a single WJC game...so maybe your comment makes a lot of sense. Out of curiosity, how much time have you spent watching the pre or post-draft performances of the '15 class?