2015-2016 Roster Talk: Bottom Six has 0 goals in Infinity Games Edition

[Raccoon Jesus]

Continue.

Have to imagine we'll see some real movement after this season. I always figured this one would be the big watershed. Doubly so now with the Kopitar contract.

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[Trolfoli]

I'm thinking Muzzin.

In all seriousness you can't build for the future if you don't have a plan. Lombardi has his 5 year plan now so time to build for the future.

Needs
-Trade Brown
-young high end C to start developing a Carter/Kopitar replacement and fill the 3C hole.

Muzzin might be enough to get that done. Then possibly replace him with Yandle. I'd say move Martinez first, but he probably doesn't have as high of value and is useful being able to play the right.

-Schenn: I expect Lombardi to get back to basics. More large unfriendly D.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think what happens with SChenn hinges on what happens with Greene.

I also keep thinking about those cryptic "5 year plan" comments and they still make no sense to me. Not at this juncture. Unless the Sekera trade made them REALLY gun shy, which would scare me not because I want them to do something like that again, but because if one move that backfires can shake you up so badly, I'd start to lose faith in the management. I can't imagine their convictions are shaken so easily. I just want to know what's making them seemingly change course.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

I'm thinking Muzzin.

In all seriousness you can't build for the future if you don't have a plan. Lombardi has his 5 year plan now so time to build for the future.

Needs
-Trade Brown
-young high end C to start developing a Carter/Kopitar replacement and fill the 3C hole.

Muzzin might be enough to get that done. Then possibly replace him with Yandle. I'd say move Martinez first, but he probably doesn't have as high of value and is useful being able to play the right.

-Schenn: I expect Lombardi to get back to basics. More large unfriendly D.

I wouldn't trade Muzzin. Doughty-Martinez-McNabb-Greene-Forbort-Gravel-whoever seems really weak on defense. That's 1 elite guy, 1 borderline 2nd pair guy and a bunch of 3rd pair/unknowns.

Edit: Plus, Yandle will cost $2-3 million more than Muzzin.

 

[go4hockey]

I wouldn't trade Muzzin. Doughty-Martinez-McNabb-Greene-Forbort-Gravel-whoever seems really weak on defense. That's 1 elite guy, 1 borderline 2nd pair guy and a bunch of 3rd pair/unknowns.

Edit: Plus, Yandle will cost $2-3 million more than Muzzin.

^^^^^^^. This Yandle will cost more and Muzzin>>>Yandle. Muzzin is the other defenseman besides Drew that should not be moved at all.

 

[Trolfoli]

I wouldn't trade Muzzin. Doughty-Martinez-McNabb-Greene-Forbort-Gravel-whoever seems really weak on defense. That's 1 elite guy, 1 borderline 2nd pair guy and a bunch of 3rd pair/unknowns.

Edit: Plus, Yandle will cost $2-3 million more than Muzzin.

Which is easily made up if moving Brown's contract. At the cost of swapping Muzzin for Yandle Kings might be able to move Brown and bring in some assets... doesn't sound too bad.

Greene/Schenn... it would seem with the cap that only one would be back. Knowing what Lombardi did with the D in the past and all the toughness the defense has lost the last couple of years I find it hard to imagine the Kings not resigning Schenn. Aslo Greene doesn't seem like the type that is going to retire. He's more of a get hit by a truck in the morning, play hockey that night kind of guy.

The downside to both Greene/Schenn being back is one will have to play on the 2nd pair. The team is running Scuderi on the top pair right now so what stops them from running Schenn on the second next year? Is it that far of a stretch?

Muzzin/Martinez are becoming redundant. Both getting stuck on the second pair because of their cap hits. The lack of defensive depth make it almost a necessity at this point. A 6/27 pair isn't overly physical and doesn't scream Lombardi hockey to me. 7/8, 6/27 is a little soft for Lombardi.

 

[Jeff18]

I'm thinking Muzzin.


Then possibly replace him with Yandle. I'd say move Martinez first, but he probably doesn't have as high of value and is useful being able to play the right.

-Schenn: I expect Lombardi to get back to basics. More large unfriendly D.

???

Why would we put ourselves at a significant disadvantage? Jake is a younger defenseman who excels at puck possession and can pitch in on the PP. The other guy is an older defender who is know for offense. Muzzin is fits the Kings play style and is a cheaper and better player. We need to win now, not think about rebuilding when we have good players. We should be trading our picks and prospects for 1.) a Top-4 defenseman, 2.) a Bottom 6 forward to replace Brown.

 

[Trolfoli]

^^^^^^^. This Yandle will cost more and Muzzin>>>Yandle. Muzzin is the other defenseman besides Drew that should not be moved at all.

Yandle (6M) < Muzzin (4) + Brown (5.875) : (9.875)

Also with the way the cap is shaping up it's quite possible one of Martinez/Muzzin may be lost if Brown can't be moved. So if you're looking at losing one anyways why not free up the cap space?

 

[Trolfoli]

???

Why would we put ourselves at a significant disadvantage? Jake is a younger defenseman who excels at puck possession and can pitch in on the PP. The other guy is an older defender who is know for offense. Muzzin is fits the Kings play style and is a cheaper and better player. We need to win now, not think about rebuilding when we have good players. We should be trading our picks and prospects for 1.) a Top-4 defenseman, 2.) a Bottom 6 forward to replace Brown.

Team already has numerous players to replace Brown. King/Lewis/Clifford....

Muzzin... that's fine, but the Kings need to give up something to get rid of Brown. Muzzin may be enough to move Brown, bring back a high end center prospect for the 3C, which the Kings won't be in a position to draft for a long time. Then with the cap space, bring in a replacement.

Edit: We also know that Lombardi was looking at Pavel Zacha last year. Big, high end center with a mean streak that might be able to play in the NHL in the near future. Kings may go after a similar player again this year.

 

[Jeff18]

Team already has numerous players to replace Brown. King/Lewis/Clifford....

Muzzin... that's fine, but the Kings need to give up something to get rid of Brown. Muzzin may be enough to move Brown, bring back a high end center prospect for the 3C, which the Kings won't be in a position to draft for a long time. Then with the cap space, bring in a replacement.

If anything we need a high end defensive prospect, we already have a pretty good prospect in Kempe; that's a very low priority however. Brown may be impossible to get rid of, I meant replacing Brown so that we have a Bottom sixer that can score and not just skate fast and fall down. Not sure how Dean is going to deal with Brown.

 

[Trolfoli]

If anything we need a high end defensive prospect, we already have a pretty good prospect in Kempe; that's a very low priority however. Brown may be impossible to get rid of, I meant replacing Brown so that we have a Bottom sixer that can score and not just skate fast and fall down. Not sure how Dean is going to deal with Brown.

Got it. Kempe/Mersch are coming soon enough. I was looking at a Brown replacement as someone who might get 8 goals next year.

I don't see the Kings really needing a high end D prospect right now. It would be nice, but if they free up some cap space they can easily fill some holes on D.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I still don't see DL fleecing himself to get rid of the Brown contract. I have a hard time believing that Toronto/CBJ management can get creative with David ****ing Clarkson and that DL would get 'stuck' with a contract that isn't nearly as bad as everyone makes it seem. Brown is overpaid by a couple million but he's still an NHLer. Look at some other contracts and realize they're worse. Phaneuf paid like Doughty until 2021. Bolland, 5.5 till 2019 and he's already in the AHL.

I get it, Brown has had issues. We're not going to HF trade proposal him irl. He's not going with Kempe and a first to toronto for a 7th round pick and a sack lunch. He's not going to buffalo with Muzzin and Gravel for future considerations. Anything remotely like that happening that doesn't have a corresponding awesome move to fill the gaps that WILL be left on departure should be grounds for firing on the spot.

Edit: and furthermore everyone that keeps complaining about the bottom six production--while right--needs to realize that these guys are doing other important things like not getting scored on. What's the use of dumping, say, Lewis for a guy who scores marginally more (let's say ~10 more points) but gets dumped on in possession and GA? ****, we just picked up Versteeg, and people can't stop hating on the guy, he's exactly the type of bottom sixer people were advocating for prior to the deadline. (that being said Lewis has been bad all year by his standards so bad example but you get what I mean)

 

[gnarls barkley]

on their current contracts, i can't imagine Muzzin/AMart will ever be dealt for anything less than a straight blockbuster aka significant (and cost-controlled) assets coming back.

i've said it before, but having guys who are that good (Voynov used to be in this group as well) with cap hits that low in this era is key for contending. Even better is they aren't long-term pre lockout cap circumvention deals either.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

Yandle (6M) < Muzzin (4) + Brown (5.875) : (9.875)

Also with the way the cap is shaping up it's quite possible one of Martinez/Muzzin may be lost if Brown can't be moved. So if you're looking at losing one anyways why not free up the cap space?

Muzzin and Brown together in a trade? That's a lot of cap space someone is going to have to sacrifice. I suppose the team acquiring Brown can just buy him out though.

I still wouldn't trade Muzzin. He's too good and too much of a bargain to trade. He's easily >>>> than Martinez. I'd rather just keep Brown and lose the cap space than replace Muzzin with Yandle.

 

[gnarls barkley]

Muzzin and Brown together in a trade? That's a lot of cap space someone is going to have to sacrifice. I suppose the team acquiring Brown can just buy him out though.

I still wouldn't trade Muzzin. He's too good and too much of a bargain to trade. He's easily >>>> than Martinez. I'd rather just keep Brown and lose the cap space than replace Muzzin with Yandle.

exactly, people keep going back to getting rid of Brown but I just don't see a way that this happens without the Kings getting absolutely shafted in one way or another.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Hopefully we hear about the NHL officially announcing two new expansion teams to start the 2017-18 season and that Lombardi finds a couple of possible suitors who may have interest in Brown.

Dean might have to send a couple of assets in order for an expansion team to take a flyer on him though, similar to what Taylor had to do to get Nashville to select Freddie Chabot at the 1998 expansion draft.

The Kings ended up sending a couple of prospects in Kimmo Timonen (ouch) and Marian Cisar as well as Vitali Yachmenev and Jan Vopat. I'm not sure what the modern day equivalent of such a group of players would be, but it may be worth it just to rid the team of Dustin Brown and his debilitating contract.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

exactly, people keep going back to getting rid of Brown but I just don't see a way that this happens without the Kings getting absolutely shafted in one way or another.

I don't think it would be extremely difficult to trade Brown but I don't see it happening either. Kings can just eat $2 million of his cap hit and someone will take him for just under $4 million. Of course there's that NTC they have to deal with. Brown might just name the teams he knows the Kings won't trade him to or don't have the cap space if he doesn't want to leave.

 

[Trolfoli]

Choices
-Lucic walks and position not filled with another top 6 forward. Probably not a playoff team. (see last year)
-Lucic brought back and Brown on books. Probably losing one of Greene/Schenn and one of Martinez/Muzzin with Shore the 3C for the foreseeable future.
-Trade something like Muzzin and Brown as a package. Go for a high 1st (4-7 range), a cheap filler for Brown's spot. Now there's cap space to bring back Greene + Schenn, a high end center prospect (hopefully at NHL level by the end of the year) or let one of Greene/Schenn go and sign a UFA to help mitigate the loss of Muzzin.

It sucks, but the Kings may be losing one of Martinez/Muzzin if Brown isn't jettisoned. I'm not suggesting that Muzzin is being moved just to move Brown's salary. There should be a high first round pick that addresses the 3C and can eventually grow into a top 1/2 center of the future. Someone like Zacha the Kings were looking at last year. Of course that's a gamble, but taking a gamble and retaining depth is better then having Brown and having a D that looks like.

Scuderi/Doughty
Muzzin/Gravel
McNabb/Greene

Seriously...

Off the top of my head teams with high first round picks looking for a D... WPG/BUF/Oil...

Or the Kings could retain on Brown and probably keep
Scuderi/Doughty
Muzzin/Martinez
McNabb/Greene
Which is pretty soft except for the 3rd pairing and doesn't look like something Lombardi would be excited about. (Also has Kempe/Mersch as Brown replacement and Shore as the 3C for the foreseeable future, not even Lewis)

Edit: Brown's NTC: Just make it clear that he's played himself off the team and if he wants to avoid the AHL he should accept a trade to any team willing to take his contract.

 

[Fat Elvis]

I'm not sure who or way anyone would deal for Brown, He has 6 more seasons at $5.875. That is a yucky contract that'll cost mucho to rid themselves of. Not confident an expansion team would bite either.
No reason to trade Muzz with 4 yrs@ 4, that is a bargain of all bargains.
Greene with 2 more yrs at 2.5 is no bueno. Gotta see if he can even play.
Clifford with 4 more yrs at an average of 1.662 is poor asset management IMO. Spot could be filled by a guy making half. Some trade value here IMO.
Nolan with 2 more seasons @ 950 isn't "cheap", but it's very movable when looking at that Brown contract.

 

[Trolfoli]

I'm not sure who or way anyone would deal for Brown, He has 6 more seasons at $5.875. That is a yucky contract that'll cost mucho to rid themselves of. Not confident an expansion team would bite either.
No reason to trade Muzz with 4 yrs@ 4, that is a bargain of all bargains.
Greene with 2 more yrs at 2.5 is no bueno. Gotta see if he can even play.
Clifford with 4 more yrs at an average of 1.662 is poor asset management IMO. Spot could be filled by a guy making half. Some trade value here IMO.
Nolan with 2 more seasons @ 950 isn't "cheap", but it's very movable when looking at that Brown contract.

What's the point of having Muzzin on a bargain of a contract if you can't fill out the rest of the team (due to Brown's contract) enough to be competitive?

If you can get a team to take Brown by dangling Muzzin's contract you have to do that. Hopefully you're able to get a nice piece or 2 back as well.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

What's the point of having Muzzin on a bargain of a contract if you can't fill out the rest of the team (due to Brown's contract) enough to be competitive?

If you can get a team to take Brown by dangling Muzzin's contract you have to do that. Hopefully you're able to get a nice piece or 2 back as well.

No, you don't, because you still then have to replace a 3rd liner (easier) and a #2 defenseman (haha good luck with that, we haven't been able to replace a #3 in 2 years) and pay them.

Cool, we've got cap space, and no one worth spending it on.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

What's the point of having Muzzin on a bargain of a contract if you can't fill out the rest of the team (due to Brown's contract) enough to be competitive?

If you can get a team to take Brown by dangling Muzzin's contract you have to do that. Hopefully you're able to get a nice piece or 2 back as well.

You create a giant hole just to open up cap space. Not going to be able to ever sign a d-man of Muzzin's caliber at $4 million.

 

[Fat Elvis]

What's the point of having Muzzin on a bargain of a contract if you can't fill out the rest of the team (due to Brown's contract) enough to be competitive?

If you can get a team to take Brown by dangling Muzzin's contract you have to do that. Hopefully you're able to get a nice piece or 2 back as well.

Not too many teams that want to add almost 10 million in contracts, and 5.875 lasting another 6 years, just so you can get Muzzin. I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree with that train of thought. Move your #2 and Brown, so you can "hopefully" add a #2. I just see anyone inhouse that can step into that role
IMO, it's easier to move Clifford, Nolan and Greene (5.11) than it'b be to move Brown's (5.875)

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Not too many teams that want to add almost 10 million in contracts, and 5.875 lasting another 6 years, just so you can get Muzzin. I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree with that train of thought. Move your #2 and Brown, so you can "hopefully" add a #2. I just see anyone inhouse that can step into that role
IMO, it's easier to move Clifford, Nolan and Greene (5.11) than it'b be to move Brown's (5.875)

Yep, easier to handle a series of smaller moves and replace those guys with ELCs.

 

[Martyros]

Does brown have a NTC or NMC? I wonder how that will affect the expansion process, if he's supposed to sign off on being unprotected given that he would be moving….