WC: 2015 — Team Finland

[FiLe]

There would've been nothing to lose by picking Risto. Low risk high reward. If he played badly you don't have to give him top 4 minutes.

With Mantyla, is there really any reward at all ? So confusing.

Actually, Ristolainen, when he plays bad, is about as big a defensive liability as Mäntylä was yesterday. Of course, when he plays good, his ceiling is... through the roof, so to speak.

So a more correct description should be "moderately high risk, extremely high reward". If you ask me, no championship has ever been won without taking some gambles, so I'm not defending the snub... but the very least one could do is get the facts straight. It's almost as if some of you have this bright idea of an ideal player and now you've decided this kid is a perfect representation of it. And you're angry at Jalonen for crushing this dream image rather than judging the player for what he actually is.

I dunno about Mäntylä and what his function is supposed to be, but we'll see. Some players are not even supposed to have particularly high rewards - they sort of vanish from the picture when they're doing their job well and the coach is perfectly fine with that. If the team starts to function and Mäntylä is still visible and in a bad way... well, then he's obviously been a bad pick.

What i like to see is young and hungry players. Especially when they are good enough and have potential. Like Jokipakka, Moses made a fool out of him but then he scored the tying goal. That's the nature of these guys.

More dream imagery. All Jokipakka did was get the puck on the blueline, saw an open lane towards the net, and took the shot. In other words (and his own, actually), what he did was something nine out of ten d-men would have done in the same place. So no, that was not a display of a young guy dazzling with his skill and energy.

There was someone on the ice however who deserves the credit you're giving to another - namely, Kemppainen who had exactly the right idea and proper timing while screening Hellebuyck. He was the one who wanted to make that goal happen and took the extra steps to make it so, not Jokipakka, who was merely doing what any other guy would have done in his stead.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Actually, Ristolainen, when he plays bad, is about as big a defensive liability as Mäntylä was yesterday. Of course, when he plays good, his ceiling is... through the roof, so to speak.

So a more correct description should be "moderately high risk, extremely high reward". If you ask me, no championship has ever been won without taking some gambles, so I'm not defending the snub... but the very least one could do is get the facts straight. It's almost as if some of you have this bright idea of an ideal player and now you've decided this kid is a perfect representation of it. And you're angry at Jalonen for crushing this dream image rather than judging the player for what he actually is.

I dunno about Mäntylä and what his function is supposed to be, but we'll see. Some players are not even supposed to have particularly high rewards - they sort of vanish from the picture when they're doing their job well and the coach is perfectly fine with that. If the team starts to function and Mäntylä is still visible and in a bad way... well, then he's obviously been a bad pick.

More dream imagery. All Jokipakka did was get the puck on the blueline, saw an open lane towards the net, and took the shot. In other words (and his own, actually), what he did was something nine out of ten d-men would have done in the same place. So no, that was not a display of a young guy dazzling with his skill and energy.

There was someone on the ice however who deserves the credit you're giving to another - namely, Kemppainen who had exactly the right idea and proper timing while screening Hellebuyck. He was the one who wanted to make that goal happen and took the extra steps to make it so, not Jokipakka, who was merely doing what any other guy would have done in his stead.

Im well aware that Risto can be a liability out there. That's exactly why i said if he plays bad you don't have to give him big minutes.

Mantyla is not playing big minutes, but he doesn't have the ability to play big minutes either. Get it ?

And i don't agree about the Jokipakka goal. Kemppainen provided the great screen but it still wouldn't have gone in if he hit the logo - something our KHL defensemen like to do.

 

[FiLe]

True. Usually it is four players with no business in team and 3-4 who should be there.

Indeed. This time around we have one, a maximum of two, and even then it's actually not even all that simple to point out the guys who don't have the business.

People are singling out Mäntylä, but even he isn't someone who's just a spare part in absence of better players. Players like that don't make it to as many major tournaments as he has. Could Ristolainen have been better than him is the question, not whether Mäntylä belongs there at all.

 

[FiLe]

Im well aware that Risto can be a liability out there. That's exactly why i said if he plays bad you don't have to give him big minutes.

Mantyla is not playing big minutes, but he doesn't have the ability to play big minutes either. Get it ?

I got it the first time, but what you don't seem to get is that this does not make Ristolainen a "low risk" player as you called him.

And i don't agree about the Jokipakka goal. Kemppainen provided the great screen but it still wouldn't have gone in if he hit the logo - something our KHL defensemen like to do.

Right. Salmela, Lepistö and Hietanen have scored plenty of similar goals over their careers. Sometimes the shot goes into the right place, sometimes it doesn't. This time it did.

But it would not have gone in without the screen.

 

[roto]

Actually, Ristolainen, when he plays bad, is about as big a defensive liability as Mäntylä was yesterday. Of course, when he plays good, his ceiling is... through the roof, so to speak.

So a more correct description should be "moderately high risk, extremely high reward".

Those are quite strong statements. IMO he's not that good yet. His ceiling might be high, but it doesn't mean he's near it currently. I could say that some Doughty could be 'low risk - extremely high reward'. Karlsson would be more risky, though the reward could be very high. It's quite lot said of current Ristolainen to categorize him more than 'mid-high reward'. Everything is relative, of course. He might be quite high reward when compared to Mäntylä.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

I got it the first time, but what you don't seem to get is that this does not make Ristolainen a "low risk" player as you called him.

Right. Salmela, Lepistö and Hietanen have scored plenty of similar goals over their careers. Sometimes the shot goes into the right place, sometimes it doesn't. This time it did.

But it would not have gone in without the screen.

On a perfect team of course he'd be a big risk, but in this situation not to in my opinion. He's not any bigger risk than almost any other defenseman we have. Risto is far from a top 4 NHL defenseman but there's also a reason why the Sabres fans have praised him and thought him as a top 4 defenseman for latter half of the season.

And again.. of course the goal wouldn't have gone in without the screen. But the fact is Jokipakka's shot and timing of it was good. I don't get why he wouldn't be given any credit for it.

 

[FiLe]

Those are quite strong statements. IMO he's not that good yet. His ceiling might be high, but it doesn't mean he's near it currently. I could say that some Doughty could be 'low risk - extremely high reward'. Karlsson would be more risky, though the reward could be very high. It's quite lot said of current Ristolainen to categorize him more than 'mid-high reward'. Everything is relative, of course. He might be quite high reward when compared to Mäntylä.

No argument from me. Perhaps we could say that even as the player he currently is, he is able to reach that ceiling momentarily, but he's quite not able to play on that level consistently. Mäntylä is what he is, but at least he is as reliable as you could expect most of the time.

Of course, hockey is a game where a single fleeting moment can decide very big things, so... eh. It's a pretty random chance of getting that flash of a brilliant player to come at the right moment - but it still is bigger than hoping it from a player likely not able to do it at all.

Like I said, it's a gamble. And a matter of what a coach values. So we could say Jalonen wanted to play it moderately safe - which a choice some of us disagree with - but to be honest, he did not play it nihilistically safe like Erkka did.

 

[FiLe]

On a perfect team of course he'd be a big risk, but in this situation not to in my opinion. He's not any bigger risk than almost any other defenseman we have. Risto is far from a top 4 NHL defenseman but there's also a reason why the Sabres fans have praised him and thought him as a top 4 defenseman for latter half of the season.

And again.. of course the goal wouldn't have gone in without the screen. But the fact is Jokipakka's shot and timing of it was good. I don't get why he wouldn't be given any credit for it.

The Sabres fans could be very lax while valuing Ristolainen and turn a blind eye to his blunders... because of McEichel. In a contender team he would have been scrutinized far more strictly. So not exactly an argument.

Jokipakka deserves credit of course (the same credit any other guy taking the same shot does), but the moment was still not the gold example of a "young guy making the difference" you initially painted it to be. And even if it was, you placed the halo on the wrong guy.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

The Sabres fans could be very lax while valuing Ristolainen and turn a blind eye to his blunders... because of McEichel. In a contender team he would have been scrutinized far more strictly. So not exactly an argument.

Jokipakka deserves credit of course, but the moment was still not the gold example of a "young guy making the difference" you initially painted it to be.

I didn't say it was some magical play. But it's seen time and time again these young guys want to make up for their mistakes, learn and often get the results. He scored, that's all that matters.

Sabres are bad and the fans know it but he has to do a lot of good things out there if they think he's been pretty good. You'd think on a team like that the bright spots are very evident. Not saying he had a solid season overall or anything but he did improve over the course of the season - like he should.

I remember a game against Boston late in the season, not exactly an easy team to play against, where he played like a veteran. That's what we need and i believe when the stakes are high he could've at least been decent, if not great.

But yeah.. i think we both made our arguments clear.

 

[FiLe]

I didn't say it was some magical play. But it's seen time and time again these young guys want to make up for their mistakes, learn and often get the results. He scored, that's all that matters.

He got the chance and capitalized on it, and good for him. Sure gives him a boost going forward. But it's still not something exclusive to young players only.

I remember a game against Boston late in the season, not exactly an easy team to play against, where he played like a veteran. That's what we need and i believe when the stakes are high he could've at least been decent, if not great.

Yeah, I think he could have been decent too. But so can Mäntylä, or whoever we wish to single out as the scapegoat of "robbing" his place.

That's the difficulty of it - there are no freeloaders in that squad. They all deserve to be there, so the question is mostly academic - whether there is a player who deserves it even more.

And like you, I actually disagree with Jalonen over cutting Ristolainen. Disagree, but understand.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

He got the chance and capitalized on it, and good for him. Sure gives him a boost going forward. But it's still not something exclusive to young players only.

Yeah, I think he could have been decent too. But so can Mäntylä, or whoever we wish to single out as the scapegoat of "robbing" his place.

That's the difficulty of it - there are no freeloaders in that squad. They all deserve to be there, so the question is mostly academic - whether there is a player who deserves it even more.

And like you, I actually disagree with Jalonen over cutting Ristolainen. Disagree, but understand.

Didn't mean it's exclusive to young players. But they do have that something older players doesn't - but it works the other way around too in a sense that older players mostly play the right way and stick to the system. Good mix of both is the best combination in this tournament IMO. Both entertaining- and performance wise.

And about the spacegoating Mantyla thing, i actually think he's the one and only defenseman who should've been replaced by Risto But yeah, there must be reasons why KJ wanted him there instead.

 

[FiLe]

Didn't mean it's exclusive to young players. But they do have that something older players doesn't - but it works the other way around too in a sense that older players mostly play the right way and stick to the system. Good mix of both is the best combination in this tournament IMO. Both entertaining- and performance wise.

Well, the mix is there actually. Since apart from Jokipakka, Lindell is there too. And in quite a big role, I might add. We have lack of those older players, if anything. Mäntylä is the oldest of the bunch, and he's "merely" 33.

And the oldest player in the squad over all is Hytönen @ 34. The team also has five players born in the 90s. So it's not like Jalonen overlooked the young as a whole and picked a team full of old farts.


Speaking of Lindell, I wondered earlier in this thread how people who have reacted if he would have got cut but Ristolainen made it.

My guess: In this reality, people are like "Jalonen, you dumb ****,, you cut Risto!" MAAD MAD MAAAD! RAGE RAAAGE!

In an alternate reality, our D looks like this:

Lepistö
Hietanen
Salmela
Ristolainen
Mäntylä
Jokipakka
Ohtamaa
Jaakola

And the fans in that reality are like: "Lindell cut? Oh well, his time will come."


It's one of the reasons why I can take the snub somewhat calmly. Yes, Ristolainen played in the NHL last season whereas Lindell stuck to Liiga, but I happen to view the two pretty much interchangeably otherwise. So all in all, we can't say that Jalonen didn't pick the kid - he just picked the kid people didn't expect him to pick.

And for the record, this is a deliberate straw man. None of you have to admit your AR counterpart would have been like this. But if you think he or she might have, I suggest conversing with the mirror a little.

 

[QnebO]

Taking mäntylä can't be backed by any argument. He isn't good enough, simple as that. I don't care if they took Toni Söderholm over him, he is better than mäntylä. Why, god why we bring him.

He's gonna get something done against weaker competition, but as I have said, against top countries he is only a liability.

 

[FiLe]

Taking mäntylä can't be backed by any argument. It's joke. He isn't good enough, simple as that.

He's gonna get something done against weaker competition, but as I have said, against top countries he is only a liability.

Can we say with absolute certainty that Ristolainen would have been good enough then?

I'm playing the Devil's advocate here obviously. I would have preferred him over Mäntylä as well, but at the same time we have to keep in mind that it's not a binary thing where we can say Mäntylä is bad and RR is good. We can only say we think RR would have been better - and at least some of those thoughts are based on nothing but gut feeling. And that leaves just enough room to make a case for Mäntylä.

So yes, there is an argument - and it's no joke either. Yes, RR should have been there, but the overreactions of some are beyond silly, and at least I can't tell whether I'm more annoyed by the actual cut or all the fan dumb on display.

 

[FiLe]

Komarov and Hytönen both added, H.Pesonen sent home. The squad is full. No room for Pulkkinen or any other addition either.

Oh well, I think we can all at least agree that the extra part they cut was the right one.


Rinne in net tomorrow.

 

[mattihp]

Komarov and Hytönen both added, H.Pesonen sent home. The squad is full. No room for Pulkkinen or any other addition either.

Oh well, I think we can all at least agree that the extra part they cut was the right one.


Rinne in net tomorrow.

Yep. Pesonen will get his shot later I am sure! Hopefully Teemu plays fulltime with the Wings very soon and makes the next olympics.

Komarov needs to healthy up!

Hytönen isn't fantastic, but is a nice sparepart.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Komarov and Hytönen both added, H.Pesonen sent home. The squad is full. No room for Pulkkinen or any other addition either.

Oh well, I think we can all at least agree that the extra part they cut was the right one.


Rinne in net tomorrow.

Im not 100% sure but isn't there a rule that you can bring a certain number of players from NA even after your roster is full ?

Just came to mind since they said "we're not expecting him" rather than he can't come because the roster is full.

Can't seriously remember.

 

[FiLe]

Im not 100% sure but isn't there a rule that you can bring a certain number of players from NA even after your roster is full ?

The rule is that the teams have 22 passes to skaters and three to goalies. At the beginning of the games, one must have at least 15 skaters and two goalies in the lineup, and they can't be replaced once named.

The remaining players 7+1, can be added at any point and they can arrive from wherever, but once the set number, 22+3 is full, there is no one to be added. No way, no how.

Before the opener, Jalonen gave passes to 12 forwards, eight d-men and three goalies. That left two passes open to late additions. With Leksa and Hytönen in, Finland is at 22 skaters plus three goalies. The squad is full. Period.

 

[Juha]

Komarov and Hytönen both added, H.Pesonen sent home. The squad is full. No room for Pulkkinen or any other addition either.

Oh well, I think we can all at least agree that the extra part they cut was the right one.


Rinne in net tomorrow.

It would have been fun to see Pulu play in the tournament. We could have really used his heavy shot on the pp. I guess the Grand Rapids are still playing.
Even though Rinne didn't finish the season strong, they probably think that if they can get Pekka going, their chances improve considerably.

 

[teddy83]

Couple of positives about last nights game, Barkov looks like he is ready to dominate, all he needs is better linemates, Donskoi looked good in 1st period, then he disappeared, JJ had bunch of scoring chances but he can't score to save his life this season, although i don't know who to put with Barkov, and Kemppainen was great. PS. Mäntylä is horrific.

 

[QnebO]

Naaahh, **** him and palola. Center depth ftw, hytönen rulz..


.. We're never gonna win anything with this sort of team building.

 

[rduck1]

Really should've waited for Pulkkinen, unless they plan to play Hytönen and Komarov in the next match or already have confirmed that he's not coming.

 

[FiLe]

Whatever the reason, the Nose obviously thinks this team can play far better than yesterday and go far.

If so, is it really so unfathomable to maybe give 'em that chance - just a game or two - before we dig out the torches and pitchforks? I don't intend to pat his head either if this keeps on going but to give him this much crap after one bad game is ridiculous.

 

[rduck1]

Whatever the reason, the Nose obviously thinks this team can play far better than yesterday and go far.

If so, is it really so unfathomable to maybe give 'em that chance - just a game or two - before we dig out the torches and pitchforks? I don't intend to pat his head either if this keeps on going but to give him this much crap after one bad game is ridiculous.

I've not given up hope or anything, and I still think they can pull out a top-4 finish even with this lineup. For my part at least, I was just expressing my own views on the issues and not so much proposing some objective truth. There's certainly a reason why it's Jalonen and not I who makes these decisions after all .

 

[SoupyFIN]

Rinne in net tomorrow.

Saros isn't going to get any games if they're just planning to leave the decision up to Rinne.